Speculation: Are Matthews and Marner Choke Artists in Playoffs?

[Garthinater]

You cant be the 3rd highest paid player on the shortest term of anyone in the top ~25 and then have the kind of playoffs matthews does.

Its beyond embarrassing. Many around here consider him the 2nd best player in the world!

The guy has never won a series in his life! He is not a big game player.

Plus, if matthews takes a fair deal then marner gets less and we end up with some extra cap space for improving this team.

I've said from the beginning, dubas messed those contracts up so badly it will cost us.

 

[Not My Tempo]

Earlier this year I said the following in a thread:

“Dubas has done a really good job with the rest of this roster, now it’s up to Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander and Rielly”

Well hard to blame JT with the injury. Rielly and Willy actually have stepped up. Matthews and Marner are just so far below what we expect from them it’s hard for the depth to outplay how bad they have been.

We needed more than 1 goal from the two of them. I remember how excited I was at the end of the 2016-17 season. “These guys are the future”. Turns out the future of making the first round of the playoffs and getting bounced was only marginally better than not making the playoffs at all.

 

[mrJT]

unfortunately i don't believe in either of them anymore.

If you can't win a series of playoff Hockey, you have to be deemed Regular season elite and nothing more.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Earlier this year I said the following in a thread:

“Dubas has done a really good job with the rest of this roster, now it’s up to Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander and Rielly”

Well hard to blame JT with the injury. Rielly and Willy actually have stepped up. Matthews and Marner are just so far below what we expect from them it’s hard for the depth to outplay how bad they have been.

We needed more than 1 goal from the two of them. I remember how excited I was at the end of the 2016-17 season. “These guys are the future”. Turns out the future of making the first round of the playoffs and getting bounced was only marginally better than not making the playoffs at all.

Honestly seems like Matthews' and Marner not performing up to standard and producing is the difference in this series. The goaltending's been good enough, the PK's been good, defensively has been decent, the depth has come through with timely goals/plays.

Winning a 7 game series is very tough when your best players don't play up to par. Seems like now it's dependent on Campbell having a great game, out-duelling Price, and another depth player stepping up in a critical game.

 

[Not My Tempo]

Winning a 7 game series is very tough when your best players don't play up to par. Seems like now it's dependent on Campbell having a great game, out-duelling Price, and another depth player stepping up in a critical game.

This is what gets me, we’ve had some “heroic” performances from depth players and they’re just being wasted.

Nylander, Kerfoot, Spezza, Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie and Campbell have come to play every game.

This is the worst I’ve ever felt as a fan, because the solution isn’t just a GM/Coaching/Depth player change.

 

[koyvoo]

Both have spines made of jelly, if any backbone at all. Where you get legendary winners who actually elevate their impact in the playoffs, these two pretenders gave a half a decade straight of struggling to even play to their levels consistently.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Ah yes the respond after a loss type guy.

Nooo, i said it’s nothing either way until second round. Possibly you are right.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

A lot of premature condemnation going on here. I'll gladly jump on the finger pointing bandwagon if they lose/blow this series. Heck, I am prepared to do it if they don't get out of the North division. But until that happens, I'm rooting for them to succeed.

I made the thread after game 5 when they showed no guts to finish. It was a terrible loss. It looked bad and it looked like the failures of past to a tee.

Then last night come out getting throttled for the first 10 minutes of the first, play decent the remainder of the first,disappeared in the second etc. Have to catch up in the third,dominate OT and lose again.

I am watching game 7 and if they lose it will be enough of the crap. Pat Quinn knew the right components of a solid team. Dubas should get fired if they lose and Shanny too. Beyond that what you see is what you get. Disengaged physically type set up that gets rolled over when the going gets tough.

The team is on the clock from top to bottom.
I pray they win for everyone’s best interest.

Players will get run out of town if they fail too

 

[613Leafer]

Goaltending? Solid.
Secondary scoring? Solid.
Team defence? Solid.

If we lose this series, it essentially 100% falls on Matthews/Marner. In a salary cap era, expectations are tied to your contracts, because for this team to be successful, these guys need to be producing.

So far in these playoffs, essentially everyone else is doing their job. Yea, Galchenyuk and Dermott coughed up the puck in back-t0-back OTs leading to goals against, but these guys are both paid under a million bucks and aren't expected to be difference makers. We don't even get to OT in either of those games if Matthews/Marner are producing.

Their contracts looked like massively overpaid contracts the second they were signed (Matthews would have been fine at the caphit on an 8 year deal, but it was absurdly off market value as a 5 year deal. Marner shouldn't have sniffed his caphit even on an 8 year deal), and then when Dubas manages to shore up the rest of the roster to perform at the level we need it to on a shoe-string budget to accommodate their contracts, they pull a disappearing act when it matters most.

It doesn't matter that it's the playoffs and the game gets tighter and more physical. Figure it out. Every star player I did a quick check on off the top of my head in the league is head and shoulders above them for playoff production.

MacKinnon - 63 points in 44 playoff games (117 point pace over 82 games).
Aho - 31 points in 29 playoff games (88 point pace).
Crosby - 191 points in 174 playoff games (90 point pace).
Malkin - 174 points in 170 playoff games (84 point pace).
Ovechkin - 135 points in 141 playoff games (79 point pace).
Kane - 132 points in 136 playoff games (80 point pace).
Pastrnak - 62 points in 58 playoff games (88 point pace).
Panarin - 28 points in 30 playoff games (77 point pace).
Kucherov - 106 points in 96 playoff games (91 point pace).
Draisaitl - 27 points in 21 playoff games (105 point pace).
McDavid - 22 points in 21 playoff games (86 point pace).
Scheifele - 32 poinss in 31 playoff games (85 point pace).
Etc

Matthews - 23 points in 31 playoff games (61 point pace).
Marner - 25 points in 31 playoff games (66 point pace).

 

[Wafflewhipper]

So far in these playoffs, essentially everyone else is doing their job. Yea, Galchenyuk and Dermott coughed up the puck in back-t0-back OTs leading to goals against, but these guys are both paid under a million bucks and aren't expected to be difference makers. We don't even get to OT in either of those games if Matthews/Marner are producing.

These turn overs are linked to the adherence to possession game being pounded in to their heads by the coaching. I brought it up several times during the season that the team were giveaway machines.
These guys always look for the play even when it isn’t thete and can’t play smart dump,chip and chase when its called for. Thats it in a nutshell. I smelled it all season and here it is biting them. Ice the damn puck when it’s looking stinky in your own end regardless. That’s one of the most simplistic that they can’t even figure out.all you do if you win the puck is get a stoppage through your goalie freezing the puck and you fresh up the lines.

They can’t do it and don’t do it. That's on the coaching and leaders on the ice to know better. Unacceptable

 

[HomerJLeafs]

Marner is a PO choker seems more and more like it.
I was wondering if Marner has a PO gear Game5.
So far no changes. He still playing dumb.

 

[Optimist]

Marner doesn't have a clue what to do with the puck when he has it. Not a clue! He's also playing scared. Reaching for the puck with his stick instead of going all in for it because he might get hit. If he can't survive a first round in the playoffs, he'll never survive a later round. He needs counseling or something.

 

[Menzinger]

Honestly seems like Matthews' and Marner not performing up to standard and producing is the difference in this series. The goaltending's been good enough, the PK's been good, defensively has been decent, the depth has come through with timely goals/plays.

Winning a 7 game series is very tough when your best players don't play up to par. Seems like now it's dependent on Campbell having a great game, out-duelling Price, and another depth player stepping up in a critical game.

Yep.

If they had just produced one more single goal between them during one of the right games, the series would be over by now. Just one goal. And they haven't been able to deliver.

Frustrating and disappointing to say the least

 

[Gallagbi]

Honestly seems like Matthews' and Marner not performing up to standard and producing is the difference in this series. The goaltending's been good enough, the PK's been good, defensively has been decent, the depth has come through with timely goals/plays.

Winning a 7 game series is very tough when your best players don't play up to par. Seems like now it's dependent on Campbell having a great game, out-duelling Price, and another depth player stepping up in a critical game.

*It shouldn't matter in this series, but...*


These were always the games I knew Tavares would show up for. Didn't do enough to propel us to victory, but has been the best player in every elimination game he's played for us.

I don't have the same faith in Matthews and definitely not Marner or Nylander.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Travis Yost done the breakdown here. Sure looks like the core chokes in the playoffs
Toronto Maple Leafs need more from core - TSN.ca

 

[Dayjobdave]

It's almost as if the fans here don't like the excitement of a 7 game playoff series against our ultimate rivals.

If tomorrow did not have the potential of totally sucking, a win tonight wouldn't be nearly as euphoric.

If we had won Thursday. Ho hum.

If we had won Saturday. fist bump and yell.

If we win tonight. WHOOOOO.

This is why we are here. 1,000,000x more exciting that the GoT finale boys! Win or lose, jump into this and enjoy!

This is NOTHING compared to us losing to Philly after Tiger said they were done like dinner!

Montreal has played well. They've scared the heck out of the leafs, and us fans. They will play well tonight. If the Leafs don't play 100%, they will lose.

The same thing will happen in every series.

I'll be watching, living and dying on every play, cursing the crooked linesman drops and the bad referees, and the dirty hab tactics that aren't called. This, as they say, is AWESOME.

 

[17 Clark]

You cant be the 3rd highest paid player on the shortest term of anyone in the top ~25 and then have the kind of playoffs matthews does.

Its beyond embarrassing. Many around here consider him the 2nd best player in the world!

The guy has never won a series in his life! He is not a big game player.

Plus, if matthews takes a fair deal then marner gets less and we end up with some extra cap space for improving this team.

I've said from the beginning, dubas messed those contracts up so badly it will cost us.

I said the same thing at the time he signed them and got torched on this board how the hell do you give people money before they’ve done anything

 

[Pookie]

Reading an article from when Keefe took over.

Said Matthews:

"Really passionate. He wants us to utilize our skill sets, he wants us to play free and not that it’s a free-for-all for everybody but he wants us to compete and utilize the God-given talents we have."

God aside... whatever talents you have, and clearly think highly of Mr Matthews... Kerfoot has more points in less ice time.

There is nothing you can blame. You've got your coach. You've got all the ice time you ever wanted, including a quadruple shift. You've got the contract you wanted. You will be an UFA when you want. You call the shots on the system.

This is a put up or shut up time.

 

[Mats13]

It's almost as if the fans here don't like the excitement of a 7 game playoff series against our ultimate rivals.

If tomorrow did not have the potential of totally sucking, a win tonight wouldn't be nearly as euphoric.

If we had won Thursday. Ho hum.

If we had won Saturday. fist bump and yell.

If we win tonight. WHOOOOO.

This is why we are here. 1,000,000x more exciting that the GoT finale boys! Win or lose, jump into this and enjoy!

This is NOTHING compared to us losing to Philly after Tiger said they were done like dinner!

Montreal has played well. They've scared the heck out of the leafs, and us fans. They will play well tonight. If the Leafs don't play 100%, they will lose.

The same thing will happen in every series.

I'll be watching, living and dying on every play, cursing the crooked linesman drops and the bad referees, and the dirty hab tactics that aren't called. This, as they say, is AWESOME.

First, there shouldn’t be a game 7. That’s what causes frustration.

Montreal has played well? What games are you watching? They suck. That’s what makes this so awful. This isn’t Boston. Montreal is garbage. They have little talent to speak of. If Matthews and Marner had produced 2 goals instead of 1 this series would be over.

Montreal barely wins games, they have no sustained offensive pressure, they can’t even defend well against Kerfoot. Price is Pricr, but he’s beatable.

If the played the first 50 mins in either game 5 or 6 this series would be over.

A game 7 is exciting when your opposition is actually good. This is just garbage.

 

[17 Clark]

Both have spines made of jelly, if any backbone at all. Where you get legendary winners who actually elevate their impact in the playoffs, these two pretenders gave a half a decade straight of struggling to even play to their levels consistently.

They should be proud to put on Toronto Maple Leafs uniform not just come and collect a paycheque remember the Muskoka five I think it’s back but in a way more expensive form

 

[koyvoo]

If for 75% to maybe a full 100% of you playoff career you fail to produce to the rate you do when the games are meaningless, what else could you possibly be other than a choke artist?

 

[Dayjobdave]

First, there shouldn’t be a game 7. That’s what causes frustration.

Montreal has played well? What games are you watching? They suck. That’s what makes this so awful. This isn’t Boston. Montreal is garbage. They have little talent to speak of. If Matthews and Marner had produced 2 goals instead of 1 this series would be over.

Montreal barely wins games, they have no sustained offensive pressure, they can’t even defend well against Kerfoot. Price is Pricr, but he’s beatable.

If the played the first 50 mins in either game 5 or 6 this series would be over.

A game 7 is exciting when your opposition is actually good. This is just garbage.

Everything you say is true but I'm trying to meditate here....

 

[koyvoo]

A lot of the apologists here are full of it. You defend these two because of an emotional attachment to them.

If you can detach the emotion, pictured them producing this way if they were oilers or habs for example, every last one of you would be calling them chokers, and you’d be be right, and deep down, you know this.

 

[Atomos2]

I'm sick and tired of hearing how other players are defending these two well. We have an elite playmaker and a generational goal scorer and they can't score more than one goal in 5 games. You think Mackinnon/Rantanen or Kucherov/Point would have the same problems against this team. This is clearly a choke on the Leafs part.

I get losing Tavares was a big blow, but Keefe gets a huge part of the blame and these two get the rest. When it comes to the usual suspects, "scoring depth", "defence" and "goaltending" those excuses don't work in this series because all of it has been excellent. Excellent for a contending team. It's the top players that are failing this one. Really funny that those same top players demanded more money than the rest of the league.

 

[17 Clark]

A lot of the apologists here are full of it. You defend these two because of an emotional attachment to them.

If you can detach the emotion, pictured them producing this way if they were oilers or habs for example, every last one of you would be calling them chokers, and you’d be be right, and deep down, you know this.

Mostly fans cannot Handle reality I have a suspicion these two don’t care cause you’re not getting paid you can blame all this one Kyle is the one that shell out the money before they proved anything if they really were team players they would’ve taken less to make it better team not gouge the leaves for every penny they could get yet People are saying Zack should take a discount what world Do some of these Maple leaf fans live in ps5 Maybe please stop attacking the fringe players and put the blame where it belongs people