I don't think Toews even at his best has very good arguments against Kopitar either in offense or in defense. Kopitar carried the Kings offensively while winning the Selke. I don't think Mr. Intangibles even wins the Selke if he's from Slovenia instead of Winnipeg. That without wanting to deny his qualities as they exist.
Anze Kopitar vs Patrick Kane
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Section88
Kaner? I hardly know her
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I think saying he never would have won a Selke is overstating it. 2009-2015 Toews was one of (if not) the most dominant 2 way centers in the league. I think considering that Kopitar has won 2 Selkes, while having a very similar peak to Toews is pretty clear evidence that Mr. Intangibles would've won one even if he was from Slovenia.
Toews got 1260 vote points, Bergeron 1250 points. That's a difference of less than 1 %. Actually I consider it absolutely certain that Toews wouldn't have won it otherwise. Hailing from Slovenia he'd never have been the same kind of sports media darling.
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Kopitar is better than Bergeron
Both Bergergon and Toews gave you Selke level defense. Especially Bergeron, who is the best two way center of a generation. They were both much more gifted goalscorers, and if you needed a goal Kopitar would be the weakest of the 3. Sometimes you need your offensive players to go out there and give you some pure offensive shifts with the highest chance at a goal in critical moments. Toews scoring 2 goals in 72 seconds to force overtime against the ducks in 2015 or Bergeron scoring the opening goal while having cracked ribs in 2011 game 7 SCF as well as putting up a shorty comes to mind.
Toews hit Selke level defense much earlier than Kopitar. Toews was a finalist in 2011, years before Kopitar developed into one of the best two way centers.
Mm. Kopitar led the playoffs in goals once, assists and points twice. Toews in assists once. Bergeron none. If you win two cups and were top scorer both times then I think you did your part offensively.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Why are we punishing Kopitar for being more playmaker than goalscorer
I mean you can't honestly cite Gaborik's 14 goals and pretend you don't know where they came from
I mean you can't honestly cite Gaborik's 14 goals and pretend you don't know where they came from
Also Gaborik in his prime was a very good player. HOF level without the injuries.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
To start a team to win the Cup, Kopitar. To finish a team to win the Cup, Kane.
There’s a reason why guys like Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, etc. start and end with the same team.
There’s a reason why guys like Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, etc. start and end with the same team.
We counting 7 way ties as leading the playoffs in goals? 3 way ties in assists and points as leading? I don't think you know what leading is, but you have to have more than all the other players to lead. And if Kopitar had an offensive dynamo like Kane on his team, he wouldn't have led in anything. He also wasn't putting up Selke level defense in that first run, while Bergeron had been a finalist.
Nobody said he didn't do his part offensively, but when he started focusing more on defense heavily, his goal scoring took a hit. Its noticeable in both the regular season numbers and the playoff numbers in his second run.
He was firmly out of his prime by the time he was on the Kings though. Agreed on the hall of fame player if no injuries.
We aren't punishing him, we are just in a thread where we are being forced to split hairs between two hall of fame players. Since Kane is just as proficient of a playmaker, its worthy to note he blows Kopitar out of the water in the goal scoring department and thats why many have him winning the poll.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
What are we doing here
Kopitar in that first run was a 77.78 GF%--he was only on the ice for 4 5v5 goals against, a 60% xGF (7.55 rel). He was utterly dominant at both ends of the ice while facing the toughest comp and starts. The only thing non-Selke about him at that point was being on the west coast as the Kings hadn't won yet so guys like him and Doughty weren't on the radar until after.
I have no qualms admitting Kane is the superior goal scorer and mentioned earlier how lethal and clutch he was
I think it's lying by omission focusing on ONLY goal scoring as a measure of production when the guy led the playoffs in points twice on the way to victory.
Kane is definitely overwhelming offense; if he's worth 2 points for, Kopitar is worth one for and another one chipping your 100 point guy down to a 40 point guy, especially when he can lead the playoffs in scoring while doing so. Zero problem with Kane winning the poll but let's be honest about Kopitar's offense.
norrisnick
The best...
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canuckslover10
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Kopitar absolutely dominated all 200ft of the ice, played both PK & PP, and was remarkably consistent for both playoff runs.
Kane is a first-ballot HOF player, but if I’m building a team, I’m taking Kopitar over him 10 times out of 10.
Stud two way centers who win selkies at nearly a PPG pace are more valuable to a winning team than scoring wingers who cash in a bit above a PPG pace.
Kane is a first-ballot HOF player, but if I’m building a team, I’m taking Kopitar over him 10 times out of 10.
Stud two way centers who win selkies at nearly a PPG pace are more valuable to a winning team than scoring wingers who cash in a bit above a PPG pace.
What about the fact that he didn't play Selke level defense? I think you are just looking at numbers at this point. He wasn't a Selke level player that year, and he didn't even become a finalist until years later. I think you are confusing the fact that the Kings played in front of Quick at his peak that year in a Darryl Sutter system and trying to credit it to Kopitar somehow.
You don't seem to know what leading is, and that is fine. But you do have to score more points than the other players on your team to lead. Toews posted better numbers in 2010 than Kopitar has posted in either of his runs. Those are the facts.
In 2014 when Kopitar finally started finding his defensive groove and was a finalist for the Selke, he matched up against Toews and Kane in the playoffs. Toews posted 4g, 3a, and 7p in that series, and Kane had 2g, 7a, 10p in that series. Kopitar had 0g, 5a, 7p. It doesn't seem like he cut down their offense at all. In fact, it looked like reigning Selke winner Toews cut down Kopitar's output.
You act like Hart and Art Ross winning players that dominate in the playoffs grow on trees. Kopitar had Drew Doughty and Jonathan Quick in a Darryl Sutter system. Those guys won the Conn Smythe's in their runs, because they showed up in the big series. Against the Blackhawks, Kopitar was effectively shut down and did little to stop Toews or Kane. Doughty was an absolute beast, especially in 2014.
Did you forget that the winner was from the Pacific division that year that you think Kopitar was playing Selke level defense? I know its cool to pretend like he got snubbed, but that is just revisionist history. Kopitar's division had nothing to do with him not being nominated for a Selke.
dabeechman
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A lot of people who are familiar with both player would choose to build their team over Kopitar. There is so much more to hockey than just putting up points.
Kopitar has 4x the hits, 3x the blocked shots, takes faceoffs, put up almost identical PP points, plays more minutes, plays the PK, better +/-, and took less time off from injury. Is that worth the .1ppg difference between players over the course of their careers? Probably not when you factor in Kopitar is currently pacing .1ppg better than Kane over the past 3 seasons.
A fun fact for Kane is that he's never scored a SHG. The guy hasn't averaged more than 2 seconds of PK time per game for the past 7 seasons, or more than 4 seconds of PK time per game in the past 16 seasons. He has 6 seasons where he averaged 0 seconds per game.
I have no issue with people choosing Kane as peak and prime. But I think Kopitar has been underrated his entire career.
Kopitar has 4x the hits, 3x the blocked shots, takes faceoffs, put up almost identical PP points, plays more minutes, plays the PK, better +/-, and took less time off from injury. Is that worth the .1ppg difference between players over the course of their careers? Probably not when you factor in Kopitar is currently pacing .1ppg better than Kane over the past 3 seasons.
A fun fact for Kane is that he's never scored a SHG. The guy hasn't averaged more than 2 seconds of PK time per game for the past 7 seasons, or more than 4 seconds of PK time per game in the past 16 seasons. He has 6 seasons where he averaged 0 seconds per game.
I have no issue with people choosing Kane as peak and prime. But I think Kopitar has been underrated his entire career.
norrisnick
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gritdash60
Registered User
If Gaborik could hold his prime or was in LA while he was in his prime, i think LA would've been unbeatable for 4 or 5 years straight. People forget too quickly how good of a skater Gaborik was, like almost Bure level skating IMO.
What about the 15-16 LA Kings d corps?
Doughty
Muzzin
Erhoff
Forbort
Greene
Schultz
Martinez
McBain
Schenn
Scuderi
Wtf is that? are you kidding me?
What this has to do with Kopitar? Well when you have one of the best 2way centers as your #1C and that kind of D-corp, it's not a fun team to play against.
What about the 15-16 LA Kings d corps?
Doughty
Muzzin
Erhoff
Forbort
Greene
Schultz
Martinez
McBain
Schenn
Scuderi
Wtf is that? are you kidding me?
What this has to do with Kopitar? Well when you have one of the best 2way centers as your #1C and that kind of D-corp, it's not a fun team to play against.
