World Cup: Anyone else think the Pools are rigged?

[Murky]

I don't mind the pools. It's a tournament to find the best team so it shouldn't matter anyway.

As for Finland punching above their weight - they have. Still, they do have a fairly weak roster and there are no guarantees that they will continue to do so. For Finland to overachieve quite a few things will have to click and Rinne or Rask will have to get hot even by their super high standards.

Finland has a chance, but I am not betting on it.

 

[JackSlater]

I don’t see how anyone can claim its not rigged for a Canada – USA final. Bettman wants a Canada – USA final. Switch USA with Russia, USA will have a much tougher time getting to the semi finals. There is a definitely possibility that they don’t make it. If they do make it, they have a very high chance of meeting Canada in the semis. Compare that to the current pools, USA – Canada almost guaranteed to make it to the semi and they wont meet each other. Which scenario has the greatest chance of a Canada – USA final.

Who USA hockey picks to represent USA has absolutely nothing to do with the pool set up

That doesn't mean it's rigged. There is still a crossover, and if Canada and USA play worse than the top teams in the other group they will be eliminated. It's definitely set up to better ensure that Canada and USA cannot eliminate each other before the finals, but that is not the same as rigging.

 

[daver]

Canada #1
USA #2-4
Czechs #6

Sweden #2 -4
Finland #2-4
Russia #5

Team NA should be in Canada's group to make it more balanced as they are better than Team Europe but that's really debatable.

 

[caymanmew]

Canada #1
USA #2-4
Czechs #6

Sweden #2 -4
Finland #2-4
Russia #5

Team NA should be in Canada's group to make it more balanced as they are better than Team Europe but that's really debatable.

I don't think they want players to have to play against there own country. That is why Canada and USA together and away from NA. of course it could happen if NA makes it through but i don't think the NHL views that as a likely scenario.

 

[Lataba76]

I don't mind the pools. It's a tournament to find the best team so it shouldn't matter anyway.

As for Finland punching above their weight - they have. Still, they do have a fairly weak roster and there are no guarantees that they will continue to do so. For Finland to overachieve quite a few things will have to click and Rinne or Rask will have to get hot even by their super high standards.

Finland has a chance, but I am not betting on it.

Finland hasn t a weak roster! Looking to Sochi! The finns had 50 % of europeans in squad. Despite they won bronce.
Hockey is more than Scorerlist. The finns proveed it since decades know that a Hockey Player needs more than Scoring abilities.
The average finnish Player is the most complete player in the World. This is the secred of succes. And the Future is very bright. Finland is U20 and U18 WC. Golden Age is coming .

 

[snipes]

Finland hasn t a weak roster! Looking to Sochi! The finns had 50 % of europeans in squad. Despite they won bronce.
Hockey is more than Scorerlist. The finns proveed it since decades know that a Hockey Player needs more than Scoring abilities.
The average finnish Player is the most complete player in the World. This is the secred of succes. And the Future is very bright. Finland is U20 and U18 WC. Golden Age is coming .

Some big wins at the youth level. Excellent up and coming young forwards.

However, the Mens level is a whole different beast. The depth and player pool jumps from players within 2-3 years of each other, to now a player pool that extends over 10-15 years.

I would slow the Golden Age talk, you might be setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[Past Considerations]

It didn't just work out.. they didn't use any ranukings to make the 2 pools.. they placed the teams to generate maximum $$.. Nothing wrong with that.

lol. That's exactly what is wrong with it.

 

[Past Considerations]

There are no good rankings to use. IIHF rankings are silly and not worth acknowledging.

IIHF has Russia ranked second even though they are the worst of the big 6 medal wise.

Since 98 when the Olympics became a best on best tournament we have had 6 best on best.(5 Olympics 1 World Cup)

...

I agree that IIHF ranking is a lopsided since puts lots of value for WHCs, but they could have done their own ranking system based on for example only counting Olympics and/or 2004 WC. It is blatantly obvious they didn't want to do anything like this. They wanted these two gimmick teams.

 

[AINEC*]

USA = Ratings and this is the only way to make it the most likely that USA advances.

 

[Past Considerations]

I don't think they want players to have to play against there own country. That is why Canada and USA together and away from NA. of course it could happen if NA makes it through but i don't think the NHL views that as a likely scenario.

It is kind of ironic that this is a problem in the first place.

 

[93LEAFS]

I don't think they are really rigged. USA is arguably the 2nd best team and is probably no worse than 4. They have made the finals in 3 of the last 6 best on best and won one of them outright. Canada is the obvious 1 seed with their current track record. They could of been slightly more balanced, but I don't think its that bad. The fact their appears to be 5 high-end hockey nations right now, automatically meant one group was going to appear stronger.

 

[Nordic*]

I don't mind the pools. It's a tournament to find the best team so it shouldn't matter anyway.

As for Finland punching above their weight - they have. Still, they do have a fairly weak roster and there are no guarantees that they will continue to do so. For Finland to overachieve quite a few things will have to click and Rinne or Rask will have to get hot even by their super high standards.

Finland has a chance, but I am not betting on it.

Finland almost ALWAYS overachieve.

Player for player, Finland shouldn't be able to hang with the great-4, but they always seem to be able to do it regardless.

Their ability to get 100% out of what they've got and perform like a true team, is unmatched.

 

[Murky]

Yes Finland has overachieved and brought the goods several times in a row. They have an excellent track record.

They will have to do it again. None of the previous tournaments matter at all.

It is just my opinion that compared to CAN, SWE and USA, Finland does have a weak roster. There are a good number of players with great promise in there. However, look at it this way - Finland has Risto who I really like. Sweden has Karlsson, OEL, Lindholm while Canada has Doughty etc. Risto has the potential to be one of the very best in game. Doughty is the very best right now, in my opinion again, ofc.

I am not speaking for anyone else, and I respect your opinions. But it is my opinion (not a fact) that Finland has a weak roster. While they have managed very good results in the past getting one now would be a surprise and it will have to start with a massive performance between the pipes.

 

[Lempo]

A curious fact of the Finnish language is that there is a very tiny core of maybe only two hundred words coming from the proto-Uralic mother language, but the words for "under" and "dog" are among those.

I don't really mind getting away with it tourney after tourney after tourney. "Yeah but this time, their players don't amount to anything..."

The way it looks to me, there are four contenders in the Group B, while the Group A has the airs of being a done deal.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Finland can beat N24, Sweden and Russia but everything has to click. Canada and USA have only have to beat European leftovers and Czech Republic. Not very fair.

 

[ruhroh*]

I hadn't checked that, damm then it's going to be tough for us Finns to get to medal games

Isn't it always?
Yet the Finns find them selves in top 3 more often than pretty much any other teams.
Also this is the World Cup. It's Cup or bust, so I don't really like Finland's changes either tbh.

 

[Lempo]

Finland can beat N24, Sweden and Russia but everything has to click. Canada and USA have only have to beat European leftovers and Czech Republic. Not very fair.

It's not a Finland-specific problem, everyone in Group B can plausibly lose points to any of the other three without their having to blow it up themselves in any way. Though I wouldn't bet on the Czech not upsetting USA, which could be projected to be the costly 2nd lose to USA.

 

[Lempo]

Isn't it always?
Yet the Finns find them selves in top 3 more often than pretty much any other teams.
Also this is the World Cup. It's Cup or bust, so I don't really like Finland's changes either tbh.

Can you imagine what'll happen in the Finnish locker room when the coach tells to the team that there will be medals only for the winner this time? Finns like medals.

They really should have rigged it with having a Bronze game.

 

[Ola]

I did at first, but to be honest these are the best set-up.

The two best teams are the US and Canada. Then comes Sweden and Russia. NAT is impossible to rank, can probably beat anyone, but since the top teams are in the NA group already they should be in the European group.

And Finland, because of previous -- heroics, there are no better word -- we overrate them. Finland can definitely beat Sweden or Russia, like no doubt. But I am sorry, if Sweden or Russia cannot win against Finland with the defense and blueline they have, you don't deserve to make the final round. Not to take -- anything -- away from Finland, this is not a swing at them, but that blueline is just very very far from what Canada, the U.S. and Sweden have.

 

[Past Considerations]

I did at first, but to be honest these are the best set-up.

The two best teams are the US and Canada. Then comes Sweden and Russia. NAT is impossible to rank, can probably beat anyone, but since the top teams are in the NA group already they should be in the European group.

I think the groups are are fairly equal, but this is irrelevant because they should be made up somehow neutrally, whether based on some past results, rankings or just by doing a draw. That is if NHL knew the words neutrality, legitimacy and sporting in this tournament's context.

And the real reason why Team NA is in the other group is of course to most likely avoid the Pejorative Slurness of TNA-USA/CAN game.

 

[miikah]

So let's get this straight,

Finland's placements in last 4 best-on-best tournaments:

3. 3. 2. 2.

USA's placements in the last 4 best-on-best tournaments:

4. 2. 8. 4.

Russia's placements in the last 4 best-on-best tournaments:

5. 6. 4. 6.


And you are saying Finland doesn't belong ahead of these countries?

Here's Sweden:

2. 5. 1. 5.

I'd argue that Finland would belong ahead of even Sweden but I do recognize the value of a gold medal.

How often do you think that Finland had the highest "NHL salary" or whatever metric you want to use in these best-on-best tournaments? Is that more important than results now?

But you have to take into account that the so-called "Golden generation" is long gone and they were an important part in all of those old accomplishments. There was a dark age when Finland produced very few NHL- caliber players if any. So there are very few prime-aged contributors on the Finnish team ( it is clearly visible on the defence) so expecting as much as has been accomplished before is just silly. It is possible but only if the stars align in complete perfection.

 

[Zegras Zebra]

What are the NHL's main objectives for this tournament?

1. Make additional revenue from a hockey market which would be willing to overpay in order to watch their teams play (aka Toronto/ Southern Ontario in general).

2. Increase viewership of the NHL product in the U.S.A

3. Better their American tv deal when it expires in a few years (basically to increase viewership and profit or points 1 and 2).

Group A Group B
Canada Russia
U.S.A Sweden
Czech Republic Finland
Europe North America U23

In order to keep the American audience as engaged to this tournament as possible, you need to ensure they go as far in the tournament as possible, so placing them in a group with arguably the two weakest teams ensures they at least make the semi-finals in the WCH. A round robin game against Team Canada would definitely increase viewers in the U.S.A early in the tournament as well. From a North American perspective, most of the focus will be on Group A, with interest in Group B coming from more hardcore North American fans, and European hockey fans willing to stay up to watch the games.

I think we should keep in mind that in the case that Team North America gets through group B and has to play either Canada or the U.S.A, that it creates more interest from the North American fans, and tv viewers of the semi-finals would increase by maybe a bit more than if Canada or the U.S.A were playing the usual suspects of Russia/Sweden/Finland. The young guns playing against their more experienced and celebrated elders, everyone loves a good underdog story, especially if they could knock out your countries biggest rival giving you a better chance at winning the tournament, plus having players from your own country to root for.

How intriguing would it be if you were an American and the Semi-Final match ups looked like this?

Semi-Final 1
1. Canada
2. North America U23

Semi-Final 2
1. Russia
2. U.S.A

As for the whole Finland argument, within the current power 6 nations only 5 have a legitimate shot of winning the tournament (Canada, U.S.A, Russia, Sweden, Finland). Finland proves time and time again that they can finish top three in best on best tournaments without the same individual talent as most of the other top 6 countries. The whole is more valuable than the individual parts, so Finland is definitely a serious competitor in the WCH.

I would put Canada as the top country and the other four nations are relatively even, with roughly the same chance of winning the tournament. Team North America could finish anywhere to be honest, but I would place them on a pedestal below the top 5 countries for now. Team Europe and the Czech Republic are clearly the two bottom countries for me at this time.

Canada
U.S.A/ Russia/ Sweden/ Finland
North America U23
Czech Republic/ Europe

 

[tony d]

It should be done based upon world ratings, if it was done this way it would be:

Group A: Canada, USA, Czech Republic, Europe
Group B: Russia, Sweden, Finland, North America

 

[billcook]

It is done to ensure that most likely final would be:

Canada/Sweden vs Russia/USA


Leave it up to Finns to screw it all up, though.

 

[Henkka]

When you look at the strenght of the teams, you have the big four national teams of Canada, US, Sweden, and Russia. You have 2/2 in each group. Then you have the two things 1) you want the NAU24 team to face only european teams, that simply makes a lot of sense, 2) you want Team Europe to take on both US and Canada, from the same reasons. Another thing is that Europe is certainly not a weak team. Given the background of USA vs Canada, and Sweden vs Finland vs Russia rivalries, I think the groups are set almost perfectly.

edit: people are underrating the US so much.... I'm pretty sure they will be surprised how good they're going to play. I bet that they will beat Finland in the last pre-tournament game.

Swapping Russia and Czechs would have been better and most near perfect. More real rival games for both USA and Canada.

I hope next Tournament groupings are based on former success + some kind of weighted lottery.