Anyone Else Get 2019-2020 Vibes From This Team?

[Niagara Bill]

Maroon types have very little impact on whether a team wins playoff games or not. Obviously massively less impact than one of the best players in the world.

Historically, teams built like the Leafs win more than they lose.

Maroon was not on Vegas. Maroon lost... to the Leafs, before being dumped to a non-playoff team in the offseason. And Vegas' win was not caused by "Maroon-type" players.

We've had a number of players like Maroon over the years.

Point is my dear Dekes that Grezky couldn't win without Semenko types, but Messier could. Mitchy cannot win with on this team. Maroon types who can do some scoring and play D are required. Teams can go farther in this league because of the rules with lessor skilled guys, see Vegas,
Why did Tre want Bert, why do people want Tanev...
If you are blind I am sorry. Your useless bs in defense of your boy is getting sickening even when no one is saying anything bad about him.
Now make like a seagull, you dropped uour poop, now...

 

[Stephen]

In an effort to avoid rehashing hot Dubas vs Treliving talk, this season reminds me a lot of 2005-06, first post lockout season.

The Leafs lost a ton of guys from their 2004 team after the lockout and replaced the depth with a mercenary short term mix of Lindros, O’Neill, Allison. The blueline was cheap. And Belfour started his decline. Think we also went a few goalies deep with Tellqvist and Aubin. Started giving the kids Steen some more meaningful looks.

The more important takeaway I have is the Leafs missing the playoffs was as much about their own cap crunch and loss of key personnel as it was about the relative improvement of teams around them. In this respect I think Toronto sliding in the standings has less to do with somehow really missing Bunting, Kerfoot, Holl and Engvall from all their good regular season work last year as it is teams around them getting better. Particularly Detroit and Florida in the standings but also some of the basement teams constantly taking points away from them.

 

[Stephen]

If you look at the ufa list and put yourself back in summer, it's hard to argue against choosing bertuzzi and domi, even more so if you want to stick to guys under 30. Klingberg flopped but the "why" is understandable. Got lucky with LTIR.


Domi is excellent for his bottom 6 role if you ask me though. Robertson wouldn't even have majority of his points without Domi down there.

I suppose someone like Matt Duchene would have been a home run signing but between the lack of fit at the time and the whole Keefe utilization debate I’m just not sure guys come to Toronto and thrive. Not a lot of guys seem to.

 

[Nineteen67]

In an effort to avoid rehashing hot Dubas vs Treliving talk, this season reminds me a lot of 2005-06, first post lockout season.

The Leafs lost a ton of guys from their 2004 team after the lockout and replaced the depth with a mercenary short term mix of Lindros, O’Neill, Allison. The blueline was cheap. And Belfour started his decline. Think we also went a few goalies deep with Tellqvist and Aubin. Started giving the kids Steen some more meaningful looks.

The more important takeaway I have is the Leafs missing the playoffs was as much about their own cap crunch and loss of key personnel as it was about the relative improvement of teams around them. In this respect I think Toronto sliding in the standings has less to do with somehow really missing Bunting, Kerfoot, Holl and Engvall from all their good regular season work last year as it is teams around them getting better. Particularly Detroit and Florida in the standings but also some of the basement teams constantly taking points away from them.

Think back to the fall when we’re predicting how the Leafs would fare in the Atlantic. A lot of us had them fighting for a playoff spot mainly because we figured Detroit, Ottawa and Buffalo would be a lot better, the Leafs would to take a step back, and no way Boston could run away with the division.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Point is my dear Dekes that Grezky couldn't win without Semenko types, but Messier could. Mitchy cannot win with on this team. Maroon types who can do some scoring and play D are required. Teams can go farther in this league because of the rules with lessor skilled guys, see Vegas,

Lol. The best hockey player ever was not successful because of 4th line goons. Good lord.
The Leafs have had a number of "Maroon types" over the years, but Marner does not need any of that to win.
Vegas won on the backs of their core, good defense, hot goaltending, and timely scoring hot streaks from depth pieces.

Why did Tre want Bert, why do people want Tanev...

Treliving wanted Bertuzzi because he was fooled into thinking that he was still an effective supporting player and top-six producer.
People want Tanev because he's an effective top-4 right-handed defenseman that played well with our top defenseman a while ago.

 

[Stephen]

Think back to the fall when we’re predicting how the Leafs would fare in the Atlantic. A lot of us had them fighting for a playoff spot mainly because we figured Detroit, Ottawa and Buffalo would be a lot better, the Leafs would to take a step back, and no way Boston could run away with the division.

Yeah I think it was a two stepped calculation. Basically the rate of decline between Toronto, Boston and Tampa having lost key personnel vs internal growth and age of roster. Vs Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit making big strides out of the basement. Florida was somewhat of a wild card but seemed like their playoff run was a mirage.

The roster is generally worse, the goaltending cratered unexpectedly and the team seems to be up and down in terms of focus, effort, system play. Also getting strong seasons from Matthews, Rielly, Nylander.

 

[mclaren55]

Vegas won on the backs of their core, good defense, hot goaltending, and timely scoring hot streaks from depth pieces.

So what you're saying there is, they won because they had a good team. Revelation.

 

[AllHeartNoSkill]

Yeah I think it was a two stepped calculation. Basically the rate of decline between Toronto, Boston and Tampa having lost key personnel vs internal growth and age of roster. Vs Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit making big strides out of the basement. Florida was somewhat of a wild card but seemed like their playoff run was a mirage.

The roster is generally worse, the goaltending cratered unexpectedly and the team seems to be up and down in terms of focus, effort, system play. Also getting strong seasons from Matthews, Rielly, Nylander.

After throwing everything they had at a playoff run last year, I think it was reasonable to expect a bit of a step back this year. Going all in for consecutive years is a good way to hollow out your system.

 

[Gallagbi]

After throwing everything they had at a playoff run last year, I think it was reasonable to expect a bit of a step back this year. Going all in for consecutive years is a good way to hollow out your system.

Depends what you're comparing to.

We should be weaker than the playoff roster constructed last year.

We should be on par or better with the pre deadline team given our available cap space this summer and having the core locked up.

The assets lost in last deadline will hurt in 3-4 years, not this season where we've seen ELC players on our regular roster.

 

[Stephen]

After throwing everything they had at a playoff run last year, I think it was reasonable to expect a bit of a step back this year. Going all in for consecutive years is a good way to hollow out your system.

I think if the goaltending had been reliable and the free agent crop not so sub optimal to trash we’d be fairly similar to where we were last year as a regular season team. Though the decline of Tavares, Brodie is a bit worrisome.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So what you're saying there is, they won because they had a good team. Revelation.

A good team that had a lot go right for a couple months. Pretty much the reason any team wins. Not because of a 4th line goon...

In this respect I think Toronto sliding in the standings has less to do with somehow really missing Bunting, Kerfoot, Holl and Engvall from all their good regular season work last year as it is teams around them getting better. Particularly Detroit and Florida in the standings but also some of the basement teams constantly taking points away from them.

Not sure how anybody could argue that our drop-off is just a result of other teams improving. The drop off is pretty evident; on paper, on the ice, and in the stats. Yeah, Florida went back to a top team, but pretty much every other Eastern playoff team including all of the ones ahead of us last year took steps back. And yeah, Detroit crawled out of the basement a bit, but the likes of Ottawa and Buffalo just fell further back into it. The East is the weakest it's been in quite a while.

 

[thewave]

I said I pitied the guy who took over from Dubas but did not consider that the guy who took over would suffer some self inflicted gunshot wounds. He was smart enough not to marry himself to most of his UFA signings so he gets another kick at the can next year. Oh yeah, he looks worse when dealing with Matty and Nylander than Dubas did. Quite the accomplishment unless Shanny held a gun to his head and approved of those deals, in which case Shanny is the moron.

Its because top brass and owners want the names here. Not the wins. The names are far more important to the bottom line.

The Leafs we see is the LarryT Bell Rogers +MLSE President along with Shanahans vision with BT onboard.

They share the same vision.

 

[Stephen]

A good team that had a lot go right for a couple months. Pretty much the reason any team wins. Not because of a 4th line goon...

Not sure how anybody could argue that our drop-off is a result of other teams improving. The drop off is pretty evident; on paper, on the ice, and in the stats. Yeah, Florida went back to a top team, but pretty much every other Eastern playoff team including all of the ones ahead of us last year took steps back. And yeah, Detroit crawled out of the basement a bit, but the likes of Ottawa and Buffalo just fell further back into it. The East is the weakest it's been in quite a while.

Well, we are WC1 right now and 1 point out of 3rd in the Atlantic, so we’ve basically only conceded 2nd in the Atlantic to Florida, who is playing better this year than last the the regular season.

Detroit is also occupying WC2 so they climbed out of the basement and could jockey for position with Toronto.

We have also dropped what, at least 8-10 points playing trash hockey and getting awful goaltending vs young teams Ottawa, Buffalo and Columbus.

 

[Stephen]

Its because top brass and owners want the names here. Not the wins. The names are far more important to the bottom line.

The Leafs we see is the LarryT Bell Rogers +MLSE President along with Shanahans vision with BT onboard.

They share the same vision.

No, I don’t think MLSE and the top brass are consciously choosing big marketable names vs team success.

It’s clear their vision forward is big names first as foundation, profit, which paves the way to inevitable championship success… I think they’re just a little lost or stalled on their way.

That said, if hypothetically there was ever the possibility to trade rosters with another team, let’s say it’s a two way veteran roster like the 2019 St. Louis Blues lacking in star power, but with the guarantee of a Stanley Cup in Toronto… I’m 100% sure there are those who are so attached to the core that they wouldn’t do it.

 

[thewave]

No, I don’t think MLSE and the top brass are consciously choosing big marketable names vs team success.

It’s clear their vision forward is big names first as foundation, profit, which paves the way to inevitable championship success… I think they’re just a little lost or stalled on their way.

That said, if hypothetically there was ever the possibility to trade rosters with another team, let’s say it’s a two way veteran roster like the 2019 St. Louis Blues lacking in star power, but with the guarantee of a Stanley Cup in Toronto… I’m 100% sure there are those who are so attached to the core that they wouldn’t do it.

I 100% think Bell and Rogers want marketable names that get spots on their media channels.

Its like.. We pay Matthews 13m but his name entices 30m in sold ad slots on our main channel and partner stations.

For that reason I think I am right here but who knows.

 

[Stephen]

Point is my dear Dekes that Grezky couldn't win without Semenko types, but Messier could. Mitchy cannot win with on this team. Maroon types who can do some scoring and play D are required. Teams can go farther in this league because of the rules with lessor skilled guys, see Vegas.

Also consider Gretzky was traded to Los Angeles with his bodyguard Marty McSorley. At the end of the day, muscle isn’t the primary reason why any elite player is elite or any championship team wins their championship but they help create a comfortable and safe work environment for everyone else to do their best work. That concept seems completely lost sometimes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well, we are WC1 right now and 1 point out of 3rd in the Atlantic, so we’ve basically only conceded 2nd in the Atlantic to Florida, who is playing better this year than last the the regular season. Detroit is also occupying WC2 so they climbed out of the basement and could jockey for position with Toronto.

Even with Florida's resurgence, last year's pace would put us 2nd in the division and conference this year; in a comfortable playoff spot and within reach of 1st. We're only "jockeying for position" with the likes of Tampa and Detroit because our team is worse this year, and we've dropped from a 111 point team to a 98 point team.

We have also dropped what, at least 8-10 points playing trash hockey and getting awful goaltending vs young teams Ottawa, Buffalo and Columbus.

This place has complained about losing to bad teams for ages. You don't get to suddenly erase losses from the equation to downplay our drop off this year.

 

[Stephen]

I 100% think Bell and Rogers want marketable names that get spots on their media channels.

Its like.. We pay Matthews 13m but his name entices 30m in sold ad slots on our main channel and partner stations.

For that reason I think I am right here but who knows.

Well obviously. Look at the loyalty some fans show to the star players, the glitz of the All Star event. Those are assets to the organization that help sell.

But I don’t think MLSE thinks they’re choosing between the sizzle and the championship steak.

 

[Stephen]

Even with Florida's resurgence, last year's pace would put us 2nd in the division and conference; in a comfortable playoff spot and within reach of 1st. We're only "jockeying for position" with the likes of Tampa and Detroit because our team is worse this year, and we've dropped from a 111 point team to a 98 point team.

This place has complained about losing to bad teams for ages. You don't get to suddenly erase losses from the equation to downplay our drop off this year.

Ok, feel free to keep blaming the new GM you don’t like. No skin off my back.

 

[thewave]

Even with Florida's resurgence, last year's pace would put us 2nd in the division and conference; in a comfortable playoff spot and within reach of 1st. We're only "jockeying for position" with the likes of Tampa and Detroit because our team is worse this year, and we've dropped from a 111 point team to a 98 point team.

This place has complained about losing to bad teams for ages. You don't get to suddenly erase losses from the equation to downplay our drop off this year.

98 point team but we could still sell our remaining 1sts through 2030 to fix it up.

/s

 

[Hellcat]

This team reminds me of the of the 2004-05 Leafs - they didn't show up either...

 

[kevsh]

Quite the accomplishment unless Shanny held a gun to his head and approved of those deals

I think that willingness to give the stars whatever they ask for was a prerequisite for taking the GM's job.

The entire success/failure of this group (depending on your view) is all Shanahan's doing. At the very least he approved every major trade, contract, free agent signing and staff hiring & firing directly -- or indirectly by first hiring Dubas and then not replacing him until Dubas walked away.

 

[Hellcat]

98 point team but we could still sell our remaining 1sts through 2030 to fix it up.

/s

Maybe we can dump Cowan and Minten for a couple of 3rd pairing d-men who are gone in 3 months... asset management smashment management .... every year we need cheap controllable skilled players to fill out the roster, every year we trade away those cheap controllable assets in layers or picks, then every year we are forced to pick scraps off the garbage heap and every year we get the same or similar results. This roster is not worth trading two legit top 6 players , just to see them choke a week into the playoffs. Keep your picks, keep your prospects. Let this team embarrass themselves again. 50% of the time they show up according to Keefe... you have 3 of the top 10 paid players and you are a WC team.... f-ing bravo plan Shanny...

Ok, feel free to keep blaming the new GM you don’t like. No skin off my back.

Blaming for what? Signing a stable of useless UFA'a? How can we blame him he hasn't done a f-ing thing since he got here to help this team, everything he has done is EA sports virtual manager terrible.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ok, feel free to keep blaming the new GM you don’t like.

This wasn't even about blame. This was about you trying to pretend that the obvious 13 point drop off we're experiencing wasn't actually a drop off, to absolve the new GM you like. I'd love for the new GM to give me a reason to like him, but I'm not going to avoid the facts or avoid placing blame where it's deserved.

 

[Arzak]

I said I pitied the guy who took over from Dubas but did not consider that the guy who took over would suffer some self inflicted gunshot wounds. He was smart enough not to marry himself to most of his UFA signings so he gets another kick at the can next year. Oh yeah, he looks worse when dealing with Matty and Nylander than Dubas did. Quite the accomplishment unless Shanny held a gun to his head and approved of those deals, in which case Shanny is the moron.

It's hard for me to pin Mattys and Nylanders contract on Tre.

Tre came in, Matty had full NMC and an expiring contract. Unless you think Shanny gave him Ok to let Matthews walk for nothing, Matthews 13.5M was decided the moment Dubas signed his last contract.


I would blame him for Nylanders contract more, but once again NTC thanks to Dubas. Once again Tre couldn't pretend RFA Marner is not making $11M ... or could he?

We paid $11M for RFA Mitch, we paid $11M for UFA JT in 2018. Make an argument UFA Nylander is not worth what RFA Mitch got in 2019.


I just don't get what you all expected Tre to do, the internal cup structure is messed up and greedy players got their NMC. Add in the fact that Tre was months on the job.


MLSE decided to extend them, Dubas set the price tag.