Any chance that Stan Mikita was better than Bobby Hull?

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Never saw either player, of course -- I'm just throwing it out there.

Talking about peak years, Mikita was a total stud from the 1961 playoffs (Stanley Cup) through 1969-70, including four scoring titles in five years and six 1st-team All Star selections at center.

His scoring dipped a little in 1970-71 and 1971-72 (the older Hull clearly outscoring him these two seasons), but after Hull jumped to the WHA, Mikita suddenly scored 83 points in 57 games -- a 114-point pace, without Bobby Hull, the highest such pace of his entire career (unfortunately, he missed 21 games to injury)! He continued putting up very impressive star-level point totals for three more seasons, all the way up to 1976. Remarkable longevity as an elite scorer!

Even in his last full season (1978-79), he still scored 55 points in 65 games, at age 38. Doug Wilson was his teammate from 1977, and in his final season of 1979-80, Mikita famously faced-off against Gretzky in Wayne's first ever NHL game and first face-off. Mikita retired less than a year before Denis Savard arrived.


So, clearly Hull had a more 'important' and noteworthy career, and was the flashier player, but Mikita actually won more scoring titles than Hull and, going by stats anyway, seems to have been Hull's equal in playoff production, too. (I did not realize until today that in 1962 -- Chicago was defending the Cup that spring -- Mikita scored 21 points in 12 games, and was +9. That's crazy for two playoff rounds.) Mikita has very impressive plus/minus totals in the regular season.

So, any chance Mikita was better?
 
This is something I've been thinking of too. Both were mainly before my time.
Mikita was fairly recently featured on Swedish Television, probably during the program named "Moments that changed sports", for being one of the first players to use a curved(?) blade. (Not sure myself about how much a pioneer he was in that regard.)

Hull obviously more "flashy" and a great goal scorer, but Mikita might have had a better overall game..?

Edit: By the way... How comparable are they to Ovechkin and Nicklas Bäckström? (Mikita obviously better than Bäckström.)
 
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In January 1970, the Associated Press published a poll among sports writers to determine the Best Player of the 1960s. Bobby Hull received 436.5 votes, Gordie Howe 145.5, Bobby Orr 19 and Stan Mikita 7 votes.

Quite decisive, isn't it? Mikita led the 1960s in scoring and had a reputation as at least a little better defensively than Bobby Hull. But at some point, you just have to trust the people who watched them play when they virtually all agree that Hull was the better player.

My educated guess is that a lot of the discrepancy is because opponents all focused on playing their best defensive players against Bobby Hull, while Mikita was more likely to be able to gun against more offensive oriented opponents.
 
Never saw either player, of course -- I'm just throwing it out there.

Talking about peak years, Mikita was a total stud from the 1961 playoffs (Stanley Cup) through 1969-70, including four scoring titles in five years and six 1st-team All Star selections at center.

His scoring dipped a little in 1970-71 and 1971-72 (the older Hull clearly outscoring him these two seasons), but after Hull jumped to the WHA, Mikita suddenly scored 83 points in 57 games -- a 114-point pace, without Bobby Hull, the highest such pace of his entire career (unfortunately, he missed 21 games to injury)! He continued putting up very impressive star-level point totals for three more seasons, all the way up to 1976. Remarkable longevity as an elite scorer!

Even in his last full season (1978-79), he still scored 55 points in 65 games, at age 38. Doug Wilson was his teammate from 1977, and in his final season of 1979-80, Mikita famously faced-off against Gretzky in Wayne's first ever NHL game and first face-off. Mikita retired less than a year before Denis Savard arrived.


So, clearly Hull had a more 'important' and noteworthy career, and was the flashier player, but Mikita actually won more scoring titles than Hull and, going by stats anyway, seems to have been Hull's equal in playoff production, too. (I did not realize until today that in 1962 -- Chicago was defending the Cup that spring -- Mikita scored 21 points in 12 games, and was +9. That's crazy for two playoff rounds.) Mikita has very impressive plus/minus totals in the regular season.

So, any chance Mikita was better?
The formation of the WHA, as well as NHL expansion played a role in watering down the league to some extent. The game's best players certainly benefited from the sudden displacement of talent.

Mikita was certainly considered to be one of the game's better puck-handlers. In my opinion, and in Hull's own view as well, Bobby Hull wasn't a very good puck-hander. He had power and explosiveness, which in those days allowed him to play a push-puck style. He would push the puck forward, then out-muscle his opponent on to it. He would blast the puck on goal from practically anywhere in the offensive zone. Every time he pounced on the puck, it seemed to be shot out of a cannon.

At his best, no player in the league was better than Hull. In fact, I think it's pretty standard to consider Hull the best player of the 1960s. He might have only been second to Gordie Howe in the entire O6 era. I believe he was.

However, nobody seems to ever mention the knee injuries that robbed him of his explosiveness and also of a potential record-breaking 1964-65 campaign. We recognize the career-altering effects of knee problems on Bobby Orr and Pavel Bure, but Hull's game significantly changed as he aged. The innovation of the banana curve completely changed his shot and made it almost inhuman -- a bullet that struck fear into the heart of every goaltender he faced.

I actually recently saw footage of him shooting the puck at a goaltender and knocking the goalie into the net for a goal. If I can find that video, I'll post it.

But he lost much of his explosiveness over the years as well, mostly due to injuries. In his earlier seasons, he was extremely quick. He had a degree of acceleration that could pull fans out of their seats. His effect on the crowd was definitely comparable to that of Pavel Bure. He was the league's marquee player -- the one everyone needed to see.

Here are some examples of Hull's skating in a game against Toronto in 1962. He's #7 in the dark uniform.



He had a ton of dynamic ability. Extremely entertaining player to watch.

Occasionally, someone will ask why Hull won the Hart Trophy in 1964-65 when Stan Mikita won the Art Ross and Norm Ullman won the goal-scoring title.

Both scoring races were Hull's to lose, and a major mid-season injury completely derailed what might have been his finest season.

Bobby Hull scored 35 goals and 57 points in the first 37 games of 1964-65. He was on his way to demolishing Maurice Richard's record of 50 goals in a season. It was effectively penciled in to happen, and he had 33 games remaining to make it so. Hull seemed unstoppable.

At that point, the goal-scoring runner-up was Norm Ullman with 19 goals. The league's point-scoring runner-up, Stan Mikita, had 44 points. They weren't anywhere near Hull, so it was unfathomable that they would catch him.

Then, on February 6, 1965, Hull collided with Bobby Baun of Toronto and tore the ligaments in his right knee.

"The ligaments are torn away from the bone... I had the same thing before (in 1960-61) and missed only three games... I was coming to the inside and I cut out to try to get around him (Baun). He caught the inside of my leg with his knee." - Bobby Hull, Feb. 1965 (D. Kenneth McKee, The Globe and Mail, 8 Feb 1965).

The team's doctor, Dr. Myron J. Tremaine: "The healing process for this type of injury are unpredictable" ("Bobby Hull Unable," The Globe and Mail, 10 Feb 1965).

Hull tried to finish the season. He ended the campaign with 39 goals and 71 points in 61 games. In his final 24 games, Hull scored just four goals and 14 points. Disastrous.

The opinion of Hull as the best player in the NHL was so unanimous that he still won the Hart Trophy that year despite ultimately losing the goal-scoring title and Art Ross Trophy.

Of course, the following year (1965-66) he broke the 50-goal plateau and became the league's first-ever 51-goal scorer. He scored 54 goals and 97 points, while Mikita, the point-scoring runner-up, had just 30 goals and 78 points. The goal-scoring runner up that year was Frank Mahovlich with just 32 goals.

Hull left everyone else so far behind him during his peak.

He sprained his left knee in the 1966 Stanley Cup playoffs against Detroit and then re-aggravated it at the end of the 1966-67 season.

He had a lot of trouble with his knees. This is often overlooked.

It's worth noting that Mikita invented the curved stick in 1965. So we never saw the most explosive version of Hull, i.e., with healthy knees, with the infamous banana curve.

We also know that Hull was by far the game's very best player among his contemporaries before he adopted the curved blade. He didn't need it to be the game's top player. He was a puck-carrying speedster with immense strength. The Golden Jet.

Here's a dazzling goal from the 1963 All-Star Game.



"He needs another shot like I need a hole in the head -- which I may get... I used to be able to figure him out, but this year he's been shooting from all over the place and more accurately. In the past he used to come in over the blueline and let go with a telegram. Now he's using radar, or something. This guy has everything -- speed, power, drive and a murderous shot. Lead me from him." - Johnny Bower, 1966 (Trent Frayne, MacLean's, 22 Jan 1966).

The technological improvement of Hull's shot (Mikita's as well) coincided with the knee injury.

Here's some footage of Hull from 1968 against Toronto. He looks like a totally different player. #9 in red.



That isn't to say he lost his puck-rushing ability, and in some of the video I've seen from the 1968-69 season, he still possesses a very high motor. Both Orr and Bure were still very fast skaters as they dealt with injuries. Naturally, their skating became increasingly labored. In that same sense, Hull still managed his best despite the damage.

There was no question who the better player was between Mikita and Hull when the two were on the ice together. Bobby Hull epitomized power and speed. He was the ultimate game-breaking forward.

Hull still scored 58 goals (a new single-season record) and 107 points in 1968-69 and was a 50-goal, 90-point player in his final NHL season with Chicago in 1971-72.

He won seven goal-scoring titles in ten years (it would have been at least eight if not for knee injury in 1964-65). He won three Art Ross trophies. He was on a trajectory to become the NHL's all-time leading goal scorer and was the league's best goal-scorer ever at that point: 604 goals in 1,036 games as of 1972; Gordie Howe had scored 786 in 1,687 games. If Hull had not left the NHL at 33 years of age, I think he would have eclipsed the record.

He was the best player of his generation. He was its highest-paid player and literally the only one who could threaten multiple retirements in the late 1960s during his contract negotiations. He was universally respected by players, executives and fans during his time with Chicago.

"Asked if he would pay a million dollars for Hull, [Stafford] Smythe said he would. He added he would give a 'whole team as long as I have enough players left to play with Hull."
- Gord Walker, The Globe and Mail, 11 Oct 1968.

"When word got out about Hull's salary dispute, Toronto Maple Leafs said they would pay $1,000,000 for Hull's contract and Montreal Canadiens are reported to have offered nine players to Chicago in a trade for him." - "Terms not revealed: Hull signs minutes before game," The Globe and Mail, 14 Oct 1968.

The scariest thing is he could have been even better. He had his best statistical seasons after his knee was damaged.
 
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I don't think so. It seems very consistent that people from that time talk about it as if Hull was clearly better and from watching old games Hull looks clearly better. I do think that Mikita is a bit underrated though.
 
Shot:



Speed:



One-on-one ability:



"Hull never talks of outslugging an opponent and he’d just as soon forget last spring’s semifinal against Detroit in which he massaged the Red Wings the way a bulldozer explores stumps. The Hawk brain trust had urged Hull to throw his weight around, advising their Lady Byng winner that he never would have picked up two serious knee injuries late last season if he’d played tougher hockey. He was injured, he was told, because in playing what he calls 'pamby' he’d been a sitting duck for board checks that wrenched his knees. By the time the Hawks reached Montreal for the final round against the Canadiens, enough of the sophisticated addicts in the Forum had been exposed through television to Hull’s rampage to boo him roundly.

This shook him, for Hull is a man who wants to be liked. 'It hurt my feelings to get booed in Montreal,' he says. 'It had never happened there. This year, I’m playing my own game — outmanoeuvring them.'

And, by coincidence or otherwise, in playing a comparatively 'pamby' game earlier this season Hull went out of action again with a knee injury incurred in the Hawks’ twelfth game. The blow that sidelined him came after he’d started the season at a scoring rate never before known in hockey. He’d scored fifteen goals in his first eleven games, a rate of about a hundred goals for the season. (In 1962 he scored fifty, and he and Rocket Richard and Boom Boom Geoffrion are the only NHL players who’ve ever hit that figure.)

Hull’s chances of reaching a lonesome pinnacle appear to depend on the soundness of his knees. There’s no question he has all of the other requirements. An unusual accolade was given him not long ago by AI Laney, a thoughtful New York hockey observer who has been covering the game for the Herald-Tribune since the Rangers inaugurated the game in Madison Square Garden in 1926.

'The plain fact is that any time Hull gets a shot,' Laney wrote, 'it is a potential goal. He is the most spectacular player in the game and he may be the greatest from this point of view that hockey has ever known, in spite of the fabulous Rocket Richard and Gordie Howe. Hull is a popular figure with the crowds, too, even when he is murdering the home team. There never has been a faster skater or one with stronger leg action. It is very likely that Hull fires the puck faster than any man who ever played the game.'" -
Trent Frayne, Maclean's, 22 Jan 1966.
 
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The consensus that Hull was better leads me to begin to speculate that centers receive assists by nature of their position, puck touches starting even at faceoffs. That is that it is harder for wingers to win Art Rosses.

Another thing this thread makes me ponder is hoe much so many of us overvalue Cups when rating players. Or perhaps, that some use the Cup argument when it suits them. To have arguably the two best players of the 60s, a dman who won more Norrises than anyone but the obvious greats, and a goalie who i believe had the best save % of his generation, and come away with so few Cups. Well, there are just so many variables that go into winning that thing.... moreso even today with so many teams in play.
 
The consensus that Hull was better leads me to begin to speculate that centers receive assists by nature of their position, puck touches starting even at faceoffs. That is that it is harder for wingers to win Art Rosses.

Another thing this thread makes me ponder is hoe much so many of us overvalue Cups when rating players. Or perhaps, that some use the Cup argument when it suits them. To have arguably the two best players of the 60s, a dman who won more Norrises than anyone but the obvious greats, and a goalie who i believe had the best save % of his generation, and come away with so few Cups. Well, there are just so many variables that go into winning that thing.... moreso even today with so many teams in play.

Theoretically I think it makes sense that centres pick up a few easy points each year due to location on the ice, but I don't think that it is a big factor here. In the 20 seasons preceding Mikita's final Art Ross only one other centre won the trophy while six different wingers did, and that doesn't include Bathgate tying for league lead in scoring and Richard finishing second various times. I think that when it comes to their scoring results it is more a case of Hull drawing tougher defensive matchups, Mikita usually playing on a better line, and Mikita just being an all time great who had the ability to compete with Hull at any given time.

Stanley Cups really shouldn't factor into an evaluation of any player. Teams win championships and it isn't shocking that deep teams that also had elite top end talent in Montreal and Toronto dominated the NHL rather than teams like Chicago and Detroit that had elite top end talent but lacked depth. How a player played in pursuit of the Stanley Cup is what matters.
 
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I agree with mostly everything in this thread. Hull is better. But lately this section has done Mikita pretty rotten in their rankings.
 
I love the story of how Mikita went from being one of the league's most penalized players to a Lady Byng winner.

In 1966, his daughter Meg posed a question that caused Mikita to totally change his game. She said “Daddy, when that guy in the stripes blew the whistle, why did Uncle Bobby [Hull] go sit with his friends and you went all the way across the ice and sat by yourself?”

Makita said, upon hearing it, he almost cried "because as a six-year-old, she knew better than I did.”

In 1964-65, Makita had 154 minutes in penalties. In 1966-67 he had 12.
 
In January 1970, the Associated Press published a poll among sports writers to determine the Best Player of the 1960s. Bobby Hull received 436.5 votes, Gordie Howe 145.5, Bobby Orr 19 and Stan Mikita 7 votes.

Their Hart voting records tell a similar tale. Top-5 finishes:

Mikita: 1, 1, 2, 4, 5
Hull: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5

Obviously voters aren't always correct about this stuff — you could argue that Mikita probably deserved to be at least a top-5 guy in '65 when he won the Art Ross (most of the the votes went to the injured Hull, as TrickofShapes noted above). But even with that it's a pretty striking gap.
 
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The 1964-65 Hart was mentioned. This is back when the writers voted for the major awards twice - at the midpoint of the season, and at the end of the season. They then combined first half and second half votes.

These are the results for the 1964-65 Hart:

1. Bobby Hull, Chi LW 103 (88-15)
2. Norm Ullman, Det C 96 (22-74)
3. Gordie Howe, Det RW 35 (9-26)
4. Roger Crozier, Det G 24 (8-16)
5. Charlie Hodge, Mtl G 16 (16-0)
6. Henri Richard, Mtl C 15 (11-4)
7. Stan Mikita, Chi C 14 (1-13)
8. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 5 (1-4)
T9. Alex Delvecchio, Det C/LW 4 (0-4)
T9. Johnny Bower, Tor G 4 (0-4)
T9. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl D 4 (3-1)


Bobby Hull dominated first half voting, and the historically underrated Norm Ullman dominated second half voting after Hull missed quite a few games. Ullman, in the best season of his career, ended up leading the league in goals, and finishing second to Mikita in total points.

I think that with modern voting methods, where writers only vote at the end of the season, Ullman would have won that Hart Trophy convincingly.

I believe 1967-68 was the last year they did midseason voting.
 
I love the story of how Mikita went from being one of the league's most penalized players to a Lady Byng winner.

In 1966, his daughter Meg posed a question that caused Mikita to totally change his game. She said “Daddy, when that guy in the stripes blew the whistle, why did Uncle Bobby [Hull] go sit with his friends and you went all the way across the ice and sat by yourself?”

Makita said, upon hearing it, he almost cried "because as a six-year-old, she knew better than I did.”

In 1964-65, Makita had 154 minutes in penalties. In 1966-67 he had 12.

This was mentioned too in the Swedish 10 minute documentary I mentioned. Well done by Mikita to be able to change his game.
 
So Mikita won the Art Ross the season Hull missed games due to injuries (and played somewhat injured?)

How much did Hull and Mikita play on the same line during their career. Which seasons together during even strength, and which seasons separated?
They usually played together on power play?
 
So Mikita won the Art Ross the season Hull missed games due to injuries (and played somewhat injured?)

How much did Hull and Mikita play on the same line during their career. Which seasons together during even strength, and which seasons separated?
They usually played together on power play?

I think you're referring to the 1965 season. Hull got off to a very strong start and halfway through the season he was expected to at least break the single season goal scoring record. He injured his knee in early February, so with basically three months left to play. I read that he had another knee injury at some point late in the season too. I'd be curious to see how Hull and Mikita compared to each other in scoring at the time of Hull's injury.

Hull and Mikita were not used together at even strength but they did play on the power play together.
 
Many people felt Hull & Mikita were the best 2 players in league for much of the 60s.

We probably do underrate Mikita.

Personally I feel like he is almost never mentioned when people talk about the 5-10 range of the greatest players. I'm not saying he deserves to be there, but hes certainly in the discussion. He's even forgotten about at times in the 11-15 range by some.
 
At first glance the lazy fan picks Bobby Hull over Stan Mikita in a heartbeat. Hull was flashier, had the shot and speed that made people jump out of their seats. But for any seasoned observer Mikita’s qualities were undeniable.

Hull was a left wing and Mikita a center, so it’s not completely fair to compare the two of them.
Hull had more freedom on his wing, and didn’t have to take as much defensive responsibilites as Mikita. They were both in the +250 range in the +/- department (1959-72), but Mikita’s qualities were probably more appreciated by teammates and coaches, than from casual fans.

They could both handle the everyday abuse from opponents. Hull had that natural farm boy strength.
He wasn’t much taller than Mikita, but had that thick body that served him well. Mikita on the other hand was very feisty and had a remarkable way to absorb punishment from opponents.

Mikita was a beast on faceoffs. I’ve seen unofficial stats for him in the 57-60% range, always being among the top three faceoff men in the league. Mikita was a superb playmaker, very smooth. His drop pass was second to none and he had that quality where he could dictate the tempo of the game, almost like a quarterback. Doug Harvey had that same quality.

I am in no way saying that Mikita was better than Hull, they were two completely different players, but I wouldn’t sell Mikita short against Hull. Flash and flair does not always mean that you’re a better player.
For the untrained eye, Hull was clearly the better player, but I can assure you that coaches and teammates knew the value of Mikita better than anyone else.

Naturally, if Chicago was protecting a lead towards the end of a game, then Mikita was their man with his intelligent play and superior faceoff skills. Of course Hull’s offensive flair, speed and shot made him an obvious choice if Chicago was trailing in the games towards the end.

To me both were great players, each had their own individual strengths, and I think Chicago were lucky to have two such icons playing for them.

cut.jpg
 
Any chance Frank Nighbor was better than Howie Morenz?

Let's not conflate "better" with "greater".

Greater (super) star vs. greater (impact on games or skilled) player are different questions.
 
I think you're referring to the 1965 season. Hull got off to a very strong start and halfway through the season he was expected to at least break the single season goal scoring record. He injured his knee in early February, so with basically three months left to play. I read that he had another knee injury at some point late in the season too. I'd be curious to see how Hull and Mikita compared to each other in scoring at the time of Hull's injury.

Hull and Mikita were not used together at even strength but they did play on the power play together.
The scoring race looked like this on the night of Hull's injury on Feb. 6, 1965.

nmq3tpvrbog51.png


Hull's goal-scoring pace slowed down slightly between Games 38 and 49 of the season. He scored three goals and 10 points in those 12 games. Still, he had nearly twice as many goals as anybody else in the entire league, and only Mikita came close to Hull in the points department. Then the injury occurred.

He only played 12 more games that year and scored just one goal and four points in that span, finishing the year with 39 goals and 71 points in 61 games.

His shot totals stand out too. An average of 6.18 shots per night.
 
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