Any chance that Stan Mikita was better than Bobby Hull?

[JackSlater]

The scoring race looked like this on the night of Hull's injury on Feb. 6, 1965.

Hull's goal-scoring pace slowed down slightly between Games 38 and 49 of the season. He scored three goals and 10 points in those 12 games. Still, he had nearly twice as many goals as anybody else in the entire league, and only Mikita came close to Hull in the points department. Then the injury occurred.

He only played 12 more games that year and scored just one goal and four points in that span, finishing the year with 39 goals and 71 points in 61 games.

His shot totals stand out too. An average of 6.18 shots per night.

Nice, thanks. Decent but by no means insurmountable scoring lead for Hull. Looks like his injury dragged Esposito down too.

 

[The Panther]

No opposing coach specifically sent out a player to shadow Stan Mikita.

Maybe they should have, since he won 4 scoring titles in 5 years...?

 

[VanIslander]

Maybe they should have, since he won 4 scoring titles in 5 years...?

Hull was 1st in NHL GOALS in 4 of those 5 years!! (And in the overlapping 7 of 10 seasons)

Coaches focus on stopping the goals first, the assists second. To wit, it is much easier to stop an Ovechkin than a Gretzky because the latter has so many options when checked well.

 

[CambieKev]

Maybe they should have, since he won 4 scoring titles in 5 years...?

Maybe. They were all too focused on stopping Hull. Here's an account of the Montreal Canadiens' efforts in Game 1 of the 1965 Stanley Cup Final against Chicago. Montreal won the game 3-2.

"Montreal proved Saturday that the old and obvious strategy still works -- stop Bobby Hull if you want to beat Chicago.

They assigned two tenacious checkers, Claude Provost and penalty killer Jim Roberts, to shadow Hull. The result was that Hull only got one shot on net.

Even with the lock on him, Hull managed to get an assist on Camille Henry's second-period goal.

Provost, who worked extra ice-time in his job of shadowing Hull, said in the dressing room:

'Just don't let that guy (Hull) wind up. If you do he's gone.'

Roberts managed several good body checks at Hull early in the game. But it was Hab defenceman Ted Harris, dumped once by the blond winger on a typical Hull rush, who had the comment.

'You don't stop him, he just runs right over you.'

Hull, who scored eight goals as a one-man wrecking crew in the Hawks' seven-game semi-final series against Detroit, shrugged his shoulders when questioned about the Habs' surveillance of him.

'It was a good game, very fast. I enjoyed it.'" - "Hawks Call Up Troops," The Victoria Daily Times, 19 Apr. 1965.

During that Finals series, Hull faced the wrath of the checkers. Mikita was matched against Jean Beliveau -- skill against skill.

"While this may have been, as all the regulars insist, one of the poorest finals in some years because neither club was good enough to win away from home, the same cannot be said of Beliveau's performance.

Big Jean dominated this playoff with his finest hockey of the season. And Jean's finest is what the game of hockey is all about.

He plays centre in the classic style, injecting poetry and grace into a pastime that has grown into a frantic game of hit and run. He also manufactured the winning bullets, shot a few of them and at the same time unloaded the other guy's big gun.

Pilote said the Canadiens outskated the Hawks. He's right. But specifically, they did a few other things, too.

Beliveau played head-on against Stan Mikita, the NHL scoring champion who has the reputation of being the best centre in the league. In seven games Beliveau destroyed a reputation.

The big guy scored five goals and five assists against the terrible tempered Stan. Mikita managed only two assists.

'In this series,' sang a Chicago scribe sadly, 'Beliveau couldn't have owned Mikita more if he'd held three mortgages on him.'

Another specific was Claude Povost's shadow job on Bobby Hull, the game's greatest shooter. Provost weighs 160 to Hull's muscle-upon-muscle 200. They laughed, did the guess-perts, and said Provost couldn't possibly hold him for seven games.

But he did. He held him to two goals, both of them in the same game at Chicago. Bobby couldn't escape him. And when the teams shook hands after the game, the Golden Jet mentioned it to the appropriate person. He congratulated Provost on a fine job." - Jim Kearney, The Vancouver Sun, May 3, 1965.

Former Montreal Canadiens forward Art Gagne attested to Mikita's great stick-handling ability. He also compared Hull to Howie Morenz, his former linemate.

"Art Gagne and his wife, Pearl, rolled back the years for a visitor Friday. The stories Art had to tell were from another era, but as one listened, one could hear the cheers coming across the years for people like Howie Morenz, Auriel Joliat, Eddie Shore, Duke Keats, Cyclone Taylor, George Hainsworth and Pit Lepine.

Gagne, Joliat and Morenz. There was a hockey line to excite the memory.

...

Art belongs to the past, but he is very much a part of the present. He is beside his television set every time there is an NHL game on. He bleeds for his currently leaderless Canadiens, he apprecates [sic] the depth and efficiency of the Detroit Red Wings and the ability of Chicago's Stan Mikita 'who can stick handle that puck over the blue line like we used to' and he roars with indignation at the slap shot until Pearl tells him to either turn off the TV or stop complaining.

But he is a remarkably fair man, other than the slap shot he does not criticize today's hockey he said, 'I prefer the passing style we played. But today's hockey is still packing the rinks so it must be good and a player like Bobby Hull belongs to any age. 'Hull is like Morenz, dynamic, strong, a master of every part of the game.'" - Denny Boyd, The Vancouver Sun, Feb. 20, 1965.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My impression is that the usage of Hull and Mikita for most of the 1960s was similar to the usage of Lemieux and Jagr in 1995-96.

The bigger superstar (Hull/Lemieux) played with and generally carried weaker linemates and also saw the best checkers, while the other superstar (Mikita/Jagr) got the best linemates and still wasn't focused on by the opponents. Of course, Lemieux was so good he still outscored Jagr.

Towards the end of the 1960s, Hull finally got his center in young Phil Esposito.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

No opposing coach specifically sent out a player to shadow Stan Mikita.

Maybe they should have, since he won 4 scoring titles in 5 years...?

...and Hull would have went on to...

Get the picture?

 

[BadgerBruce]

My impression is that the usage of Hull and Mikita for most of the 1960s was similar to the usage of Lemieux and Jagr in 1995-96.

The bigger superstar (Hull/Lemieux) played with and generally carried weaker linemates and also saw the best checkers, while the other superstar (Mikita/Jagr) got the best linemates and still wasn't focused on by the opponents. Of course, Lemieux was so good he still outscored Jagr.

Towards the end of the 1960s, Hull finally got his center in young Phil Esposito.

Unless Hull joined Esposito in Boston in 67, this isn’t quite accurate.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Unless Hull joined Esposito in Boston in 67, this isn’t quite accurate.

Before Boston, Esposito was in Chicago, where he played 3 full seasons (after an abbreviated rookie season): Phil Esposito Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

He centered Bobby Hull and was actually a great even strength point producer, but he was stuck behind Mikita on the PP.

Bobby Hull reportedly was not happy when Espo was traded away.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Before Boston, Esposito was in Chicago, where he played 3 full seasons (after an abbreviated rookie season): Phil Esposito Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

He centered Bobby Hull and was actually a great even strength point producer, but he was stuck behind Mikita on the PP.

Bobby Hull reportedly was not happy when Espo was traded away.

Yes, this is true. But Esposito joined the Hawks as a regular in 1964-65 and by the first expansion he’d been traded to Boston, so Hull certainly did not find his centre (Esposito) “towards the end of the 1960s.”

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes, this is true. But Esposito joined the Hawks as a regular in 1964-65 and by the first expansion he’d been traded to Boston, so Hull certainly did not find his centre (Esposito) “towards the end of the 1960s.”

I apologize for typing "towards the end of the 1960s" when I should have said "in the second half of the 1960s"

 

[Staniowski]

Mikita was a very good player, and a great scorer. But he is also one of the most overrated star players that I've ever seen play, and probably of all-time.

Bobby Hull was substantially better in most regards, and overall. Hull could play a couple notches higher.

Mikita was a bit of a light-weight.

Those Blackhawks teams were generally not very good teams. Pilote was also overrated.

 

[ted2019]

I love the story of how Mikita went from being one of the league's most penalized players to a Lady Byng winner.

In 1966, his daughter Meg posed a question that caused Mikita to totally change his game. She said “Daddy, when that guy in the stripes blew the whistle, why did Uncle Bobby [Hull] go sit with his friends and you went all the way across the ice and sat by yourself?”

Makita said, upon hearing it, he almost cried "because as a six-year-old, she knew better than I did.”

In 1964-65, Makita had 154 minutes in penalties. In 1966-67 he had 12.

This really proves that kids are smarter then adults.

 

[ted2019]

Mikita was a very good player, and a great scorer. But he is also one of the most overrated star players that I've ever seen play, and probably of all-time.

Bobby Hull was substantially better in most regards, and overall. Hull could play a couple notches higher.

Mikita was a bit of a light-weight.

Those Blackhawks teams were generally not very good teams. Pilote was also overrated.

How in your wisdom is Mikita a "light weight"? Do light weights win back to back Harts & Art Rosses?

 

[Kshahdoo]

Say, nowadays we have players as good as Hull and Mikita. Who would teams choose to go with? Would it be Ovechkin/Malkin situation or what?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Say, nowadays we have players as good as Hull and Mikita. Who would teams choose to go with? Would it be Ovechkin/Malkin situation or what?

Maybe Ovechkin Malkin from 2009ish?

 

[Buffalowing1988]

Say, nowadays we have players as good as Hull and Mikita. Who would teams choose to go with? Would it be Ovechkin/Malkin situation or what?

Interesting question. Mikita, in my mind, is similar to a Marchand. I hate Marchand, but I hate him because he always is a pest and then beats my team.


I'm anti-Hull on this forum and I stand by my opinion that he's barely scratching top-10. But the obvious comparison would be an Ovechkin. I'm not going to deny that Hull was that big of a force. I just wonder how much Pilote and Mikita had to do with it in particular.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Mikita was a very good player, and a great scorer. But he is also one of the most overrated star players that I've ever seen play, and probably of all-time.

Bobby Hull was substantially better in most regards, and overall. Hull could play a couple notches higher.

Mikita was a bit of a light-weight.

Those Blackhawks teams were generally not very good teams. Pilote was also overrated.

What do you consider "not very good"?

 

[Staniowski]

How in your wisdom is Mikita a "light weight"? Do light weights win back to back Harts & Art Rosses?

Some hockey players are better than their point totals would indicate, some are not as good. Mikita, in my opinion, falls into the latter group.

Mikita certainly was very talented. But I dont think he is a player that most teams would be afraid to play against.

 

[tarheelhockey]

This is a very rough series of analogies, but to me "could Mikita be better than Hull?" is similar to "could Clarke be better than Orr?" or "could Trottier be better than Gretzky?" or "could Crosby be better than Lemieux?".

I mean... it's not crazy for someone to take those positions. You can see how they would get there. But the overwhelming majority of fans would disagree, for reasons that would take pages of discussion to quantify but which are easily intuitive to most people watching the games.

 

[Troubadour]

The bigger superstar (Hull/Lemieux) played with and generally carried weaker linemates and also saw the best checkers, while the other superstar (Mikita/Jagr) got the best linemates and still wasn't focused on by the opponents. Of course, Lemieux was so good he still outscored Jagr.

Excuse me, this calls for a bit of context, because Jagr and Lemieux played together on the powerplay, and that's where Lemieux outscored Jagr (partly also because Lemieux had as much PP time as he wanted, which often was ALL of IT).

Jagr had... way better ES numbers.

Lemieux at ES:

70GP 31G 43A 74P

Good, but the mullet guy was just better over a longer stretch:

82G 41G 54A 95P

Glad to help there.

 

[Nathaniel]

Excuse me, this calls for a bit of context, because Jagr and Lemieux played together on the powerplay, and that's where Lemieux outscored Jagr (partly also because Lemieux had as much PP time as he wanted, which often was ALL of IT).

Jagr had... way better ES numbers.

Lemieux at ES:

70GP 31G 43A 74P

Good, but the mullet guy was just better over a longer stretch:

82G 41G 54A 95P

Glad to help there.

This was a 30 year old Lemieux.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Before Boston, Esposito was in Chicago, where he played 3 full seasons (after an abbreviated rookie season): Phil Esposito Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

He centered Bobby Hull and was actually a great even strength point producer, but he was stuck behind Mikita on the PP.

Bobby Hull reportedly was not happy when Espo was traded away.

Hull said of the Esposito trade - "I lost my right arm."

I always wondered at the success of such a line when you imagine the discrepancy in speed between Hull and Esposito? But then, against the Russians Yvan Cournoyer was usually Esposito's right wing so there you go again. Espo was strategically smart enough to utilize their speed rather than to allow himself to slow the line down I guess.

 

[plusandminus]

Here's an older thread on the topic. Pappyline, who followed both during their careers,confirms most of what has been written here. He thought Hull was the better one of the two, while Mitita too being a great player.
Stan Mikita vs/and Bobby Hull?

 

[FerrisRox]

Before Boston, Esposito was in Chicago, where he played 3 full seasons (after an abbreviated rookie season): Phil Esposito Stats | Hockey-Reference.com.

Yes, but none of those years were toward the end of the 1960's and I think that was what he was commenting on.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes, but none of those years were toward the end of the 1960's and I think that was what he was commenting on.

I will now apologize a second time for saying "towards the end" when I should have said "in the second half."