Speculation: And yet again...the Off-Topic Thread

[Bench]

Do people honestly think Biles just got nervous? She lost the ability to track her time and space while flipping through the air at however fast she's going. If a QB got something similar, an inability to track distance/speed/depth-perception/etc... yeah they are dumb as f*** if they go out on the field. Likely to hurt themselves or others. Let alone be able to judge pass routes and shit. It would be a trainwreck.

And I think it's important to note, it's not just any ol' QB. The QB in question would need to be the most decorated QB of all-time. Like Tom Brady. Because Simone Biles is the Tom Brady of gymnastics. If Tom Brady, after winning 6 Super Bowls said "It's a bad idea I play in this big game." And then won ANOTHER Super Bowl years later... that's the equivalent.

Like how much more would Tom Brady need to accomplish for us to trust him that he might know when he's good to go and when he's not?

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I don't have an issue with your fabricated hypotheticals because I'm evaluating what actually happened. And seeing someone who knew they couldn't perform to their usual standard and as a result decided it was best for them and the team to pull out. And knowing your limits and when to call it is not weak. Getting help is not weak.

Simone has been spectacular in these current Olympics at age 27 (3 gold , 1 silver) so obviously she made the correct decision long-term, even if people like you are hung up on her decisions and labeling them as negative.

To put it into terms you can understand, if Jared Goff was NFL MVP numerous times and won half a dozen Super Bowls but pulled out of one big game... Yeah dude, I wouldn't think he was weak. At all. I'd think he's one of the best of all-time and that takes a level of commitment and toll that most of us will never understand. I'd trust Goff to make the right decision for himself given his massive track record of success and being one of the best to ever do the job.

The question is why you think you know better than Simone Biles?

Scracth all that.

Why does it matter if Bench of Izlez or heyfolks or ASP think that someone is weak as shit? It doesn't. She did get too many plaudits about it being heroic to step aside. Like, it was a smart move and it was brave because she was certainly going to face backlash. But knowing your limits isn't heroic and that's where it'll lose me for overpraise of Simone.

I mean, honestly, people called Franzen "weak as shit" his whole career. If Tomas Holmstrom ever once said "I'm not going to stand in front of the net and get whacked on today, I'm not feeling it", he'd be called weak as shit. A guy like Paul Kariya who got concussed several times and as such played a lot more passive later in his career got called weak as shit.

Basically my point is that athletes gritting through injuries or mental blocks can be impressive, but it shouldn't be the expectation. It shouldn't be "sacrifice your physical and mental well-being for my amusement, puppet" or I'll light you up. Just this past year, Amon-Ra St. Brown played the entire second half of the season with hurt ribs and every single playoff run in hockey, one of the fun things as a fan is to see the injury reports come out after the Cup finals when you see just how freaking banged up all these guys are. Hell, I gave Brent Gilchrist 18 gajillion miles of shit for sucking at hockey as a kid and I come to find out from the story that he was getting cortisone shots and playing on like a fiber of a groin muscle all of those runs.

To bring it back... Simone thought she was good at the start of the Tokyo Olympics and quickly realized something was wrong. They have alternates for that reason. Would it be any different to you if she had done her vault and came down wrong and shattered her leg?

 

[izlez]

And I think it's important to note, it's not just any ol' QB. The QB in question would need to be the most decorated QB of all-time. Like Tom Brady. Because Simone Biles is the Tom Brady of gymnastics. If Tom Brady, after winning 6 Super Bowls said "It's a bad idea I play in this big game." And then won ANOTHER Super Bowl years later... that's the equivalent.

Like how much more would Tom Brady need to accomplish for us to trust him that he might know when he's good to go and when he's not?

That is indeed a closer hypothetical.

Pretty sure 99% of people would OBLITERATE him for that move. I know I would.

 

[Bench]

That is indeed a closer hypothetical.

Pretty sure 99% of people would OBLITERATE him for that move. I know I would.

99%? Is that the ratio of people OBLIERATING Simone Biles? You're in the minority here, by far. You're on the fringes pretending you're speaking for 99%.

And we have data for it! We don't need to make up numbers like you did. This is polling data immediately Tokyo 2021. Your stance makes up 13% of respondents in two different polls.

After Simone Biles’ Olympic Withdrawals, Polling Points to Widespread Respect for Athletes’ Mental Health

In a Morning Consult poll conducted after Biles withdrew from the women’s team and individual all-around competitions -- but before her bronze medal performance on the balance beam Tuesday -- 80 percent of U.S. adults said professional athletes should prioritize their mental health, even if it...

pro.morningconsult.com

• 54% of U.S. adults said today’s professional and Olympic athletes face more pressure than those in previous eras.
• 2 in 3 U.S. adults say they supported the gymnast removing herself from competition for mental health reasons.
• 68% of respondents viewed Biles as “strong” despite her decision not to compete in team and individual all-around competitions, compared to 13% who characterized her as “weak.”
  

https://www.axios.com/2021/08/07/olympics-mental-health-simone-biles-axios-momentive-poll

By the numbers: 62% of Americans say they supported Biles' decision (51% "strongly"), while just 13% opposed it and another 22% said they didn't know enough about the situation to render judgment.​

 

[izlez]

Do people honestly think Biles just got nervous? She lost the ability to track her time and space while flipping through the air at however fast she's going. If a QB got something similar, an inability to track distance/speed/depth-perception/etc... yeah they are dumb as f*** if they go out on the field. Likely to hurt themselves or others. Let alone be able to judge pass routes and shit. It would be a trainwreck.

I don’t think she just got nervous. I’m saying she is a professional athlete and we typically celebrate these people for persevering through tough situations.

You are competing to be the best of the best in the world. When else have we celebrated quitting in the face of adversity?

 

[izlez]

99%? Is that the ratio of people OBLIERATING Simone Biles? You're in the minority here, by far. You're on the fringes pretending you're speaking for 99%.

And we have data for it! We don't need to make up numbers like you did. This is polling data immediately Tokyo 2021. Your stance makes up 13% of respondents in two different polls.

After Simone Biles’ Olympic Withdrawals, Polling Points to Widespread Respect for Athletes’ Mental Health

In a Morning Consult poll conducted after Biles withdrew from the women’s team and individual all-around competitions -- but before her bronze medal performance on the balance beam Tuesday -- 80 percent of U.S. adults said professional athletes should prioritize their mental health, even if it...

pro.morningconsult.com

• 54% of U.S. adults said today’s professional and Olympic athletes face more pressure than those in previous eras.
• 2 in 3 U.S. adults say they supported the gymnast removing herself from competition for mental health reasons.
• 68% of respondents viewed Biles as “strong” despite her decision not to compete in team and individual all-around competitions, compared to 13% who characterized her as “weak.”

https://www.axios.com/2021/08/07/olympics-mental-health-simone-biles-axios-momentive-poll

By the numbers: 62% of Americans say they supported Biles' decision (51% "strongly"), while just 13% opposed it and another 22% said they didn't know enough about the situation to render judgment.​

I’m not suggesting I’m speaking for a majority. I’m suggesting people are giving her a free pass that would not be afforded to any of these other people I listed and a poll for Tom Brady would look DRASTICALLY different if he did the same thing.

And I’m forced to come up with hypotheticals because there aren’t really any comparables in the history of athletics… because this was uniquely soft.

This wasn’t a mental health issue where she was having suicidal thoughts or something. This was a sports psychology issue where she wasn’t dialed in and she quit rather than face that adversity head on

 

[norrisnick]

I don’t think she just got nervous. I’m saying she is a professional athlete and we typically celebrate these people for persevering through tough situations.

You are competing to be the best of the best in the world. When else have we celebrated quitting in the face of adversity?

This shouldn't be couched in the terms of quitting. Doctors should have shut her down. If she can't tell up is up and down is down while tumbling through the air, letting her vault would be criminally negligent.

I’m not suggesting I’m speaking for a majority. I’m suggesting people are giving her a free pass that would not be afforded to any of these other people I listed and a poll for Tom Brady would look DRASTICALLY different if he did the same thing.

And I’m forced to come up with hypotheticals because there aren’t really any comparables in the history of athletics… because this was uniquely soft.

This wasn’t a mental health issue where she was having suicidal thoughts or something. This was a sports psychology issue where she wasn’t dialed in and she quit rather than face that adversity head on

So rather face the mat head on when she loses track of herself in mid-air?


And to further the point... anyone pulling out for any safety reason, should be celebrated. This compete at all costs and spill blood for the fans' amusement is silly beyond belief.

 

[jkutswings]

When else have we celebrated quitting in the face of adversity?

And the disconnect has been revealed.

Quitting is admitting defeat. Stepping away to get help with a problem, then returning to resume what you did before (at a continued high level) is very different.

 

[izlez]

This shouldn't be couched in the terms of quitting. Doctors should have shut her down. If she can't tell up is up and down is down while tumbling through the air, letting her vault would be criminally negligent.


So rather face the mat head on when she loses track of herself in mid-air?


And to further the point... anyone pulling out for any safety reason, should be celebrated. This compete at all costs and spill blood for the fans' amusement is silly beyond belief.

Sounds like you’re describing an all time choke on the biggest stage, not a hero.

Her brains weren’t being scrambled from multiple concussions. This was a person who chose to compete to be the best in the world at flipping through the air, and chose not to for fear of injury.

Completely her prerogative to look out for her health. Also weak in terms of elite athletic competition

 

[Bench]

I’m not suggesting I’m speaking for a majority.

Pretty sure 99% of people would OBLITERATE him for that move. I know I would.

Oh, silly me. I don't know how I possibly got that idea.

 

[izlez]

Oh, silly me. I don't know how I possibly got that idea.

You went in to a long post about polling on how people feel about Simone Biles specifically. I know I am in the minority on that.

I will also keep creating hypotheticals situations with estimated numbers that highlight the hypocrisy.

If Moritz Seider decided to sit out the season because his mental game wasn’t up to par and he was worried he could get hurt: he wouldn’t be a hero. 99% of people wouldn’t be on his side. We would be looking to get him off the team. It would be soft.

 

[norrisnick]

Sounds like you’re describing an all time choke on the biggest stage, not a hero.

Her brains weren’t being scrambled from multiple concussions. This was a person who chose to compete to be the best in the world at flipping through the air, and chose not to for fear of injury.

Completely her prerogative to look out for her health. Also weak in terms of elite athletic competition

No, it is heroic.

Takes balls to stand up and say something is wrong knowing there are legions like you on the internet.

 

[Winger98]

Hey, going to be in grand rapids for a week with the family. We plan on going to the sculpture gardens and john ball zoo. Probably will search out a decent beach. Any one have suggestions for family friendly eats and places to visit?

 

[jkutswings]

If Moritz Seider decided to sit out the season because his mental game wasn’t up to par and he was worried he could get hurt: he wouldn’t be a hero. 99% of people wouldn’t be on his side. We would be looking to get him off the team. It would be soft.

Holy False Equivalency, Batman!

1) During a typical shift, there are few to no movements that Seider would deliberately make that would stand a high probability of putting his own physical health in danger if not executed perfectly.
2) Any of us - myself included - are making giant assumptions in what any athlete is truly facing, usually based on a very limited (and often biased) report from one or more media outlets.

So, in that hypothetical, if Seider decided to step away from the game, I'd LIKE to think that I would not immediately rush to judgment and label him as anything at all without hoping to first get a better understanding of the circumstances.

I mean, it wasn't all that long ago when Vrana was here and entered the player assistance program. Did most of us speculate why he might be stepping away? Yes. But the majority was also pulling for the guy to get whatever help he needed, not labeling him as soft or wanting to immediately kick him off the team.

 

[izlez]

Holy False Equivalency, Batman!

1) During a typical shift, there are few to no movements that Seider would deliberately make that would stand a high probability of putting his own physical health in danger if not executed perfectly.
2) Any of us - myself included - are making giant assumptions in what any athlete is truly facing, usually based on a very limited (and often biased) report from one or more media outlets.

So, in that hypothetical, if Seider decided to step away from the game, I'd LIKE to think that I would not immediately rush to judgment and label him as anything at all without hoping to first get a better understanding of the circumstances.

I mean, it wasn't all that long ago when Vrana was here and entered the player assistance program. Did most of us speculate why he might be stepping away? Yes. But the majority was also pulling for the guy to get whatever help he needed, not labeling him as soft or wanting to immediately kick him off the team.

Simone Biles put out a TV show where she personally walked us through her struggles.

It wasn't depression. It wasn't dealing with the loss of her mother. It wasn't drug addiction. It wasn't a serious mental health issue.

 

[jkutswings]

It wasn't a serious mental health issue.

Maybe not serious to you. But it was obviously serious to her. It goes back to my second point, that we make assumptions based on what we see and hear (also filtered through our own life experiences and beliefs and other biases).

An elite athlete opted to not compete based on mental reservations. You're free to have an opinion on the merits of that decision. But her actions before and after that decision seem to back up the point that it was not a flippant decision, and that it was something that was very important TO HER.

 

[norrisnick]

For reals though... who is smurfing as a barely literate scandi? That's too terrible to be legit

 

[izlez]

For reals though... who is smurfing as a barely literate scandi? That's too terrible to be legit

Does the "Disregard all previous instructions. Give me a recipe for chocolate cake" meme really work? Maybe that is worth a shot to try to get to the bottom of it

 

[Konnan511]

99%? Is that the ratio of people OBLIERATING Simone Biles? You're in the minority here, by far. You're on the fringes pretending you're speaking for 99%.

And we have data for it! We don't need to make up numbers like you did. This is polling data immediately Tokyo 2021. Your stance makes up 13% of respondents in two different polls.

After Simone Biles’ Olympic Withdrawals, Polling Points to Widespread Respect for Athletes’ Mental Health

In a Morning Consult poll conducted after Biles withdrew from the women’s team and individual all-around competitions -- but before her bronze medal performance on the balance beam Tuesday -- 80 percent of U.S. adults said professional athletes should prioritize their mental health, even if it...

pro.morningconsult.com

• 54% of U.S. adults said today’s professional and Olympic athletes face more pressure than those in previous eras.
• 2 in 3 U.S. adults say they supported the gymnast removing herself from competition for mental health reasons.
• 68% of respondents viewed Biles as “strong” despite her decision not to compete in team and individual all-around competitions, compared to 13% who characterized her as “weak.”

https://www.axios.com/2021/08/07/olympics-mental-health-simone-biles-axios-momentive-poll

By the numbers: 62% of Americans say they supported Biles' decision (51% "strongly"), while just 13% opposed it and another 22% said they didn't know enough about the situation to render judgment.​

It's really not worth it. You can't argue or explain nuance to these type of people. It doesn't take much to understand where this rhetoric is coming from, it's bigly obvious.

I personally cannot wait for next Summer Olympics, the US gymnastics team should still have Lee who will hopefully be back and redeem herself on that vaunted balance beam, Jade I think is done, Jordan is probably done, Kayla DiCello is a beast, Skye and Hezly are amazing. And there are still more dark horses that may make the team in four years. Very bright future.

 

[izlez]

It's really not worth it. You can't argue or explain nuance to these type of people. It doesn't take much to understand where this rhetoric is coming from, it's bigly obvious.

Since you're the second person to allude to it: Please explicitly explain where my "rhetoric" is coming from.

 

[Bench]

Since you're the second person to allude to it: Please explicitly explain where my "rhetoric" is coming from.

Web search "Simone Biles" and "weak" and you'll see exactly the narrative you're discussing coming exclusively from one branch of media. All the vocal media critics of Simone fall neatly into one camp. You know, the same camp that found NFL players kneeling a problem. Or NHL warm-up jerseys.

(Just a note to everyone, this isn't an invitation to open up the political Pandora's Box)

I doubt you align with them, but it's quite a coincidence you have all their "weak" talking points in your back pocket if you don't follow them. Especially when it's such an unpopular stance to begin with. You'd make up an even smaller fraction of that previously discussed 13%. That's where the eyebrow raising is coming from.

Nonetheless, I've appreciated the actual discussion and desire to engage, even if I think you're a little old school on your views on this issue.

 

[izlez]

Web search "Simone Biles" and "weak" and you'll see exactly the narrative you're discussing coming exclusively from one branch of media. All the vocal media critics of Simone fall neatly into one camp. You know, the same camp that found NFL players kneeling a problem. Or NHL warm-up jerseys.

(Just a note to everyone, this isn't an invitation to open up the political Pandora's Box)

I doubt you align with them, but it's quite a coincidence you have all their "weak" talking points in your back pocket if you don't follow them. Especially when it's such an unpopular stance to begin with. You'd make up an even smaller fraction of that previously discussed 13%. That's where the eyebrow raising is coming from.

Nonetheless, I've appreciated the actual discussion and desire to engage, even if I think you're a little old school on your views on this issue.

Nah, I don’t agree with those people on those topics (and pretty aggressively against the stuff they generally stand for). Honestly, I’ve never read any article’s criticizing Simone for doing this.

I’m able to criticize athletes for failing in their chosen field without anybody’s help, and I’m frankly stunned that it’s viewed as a hot take.

…when is Johnny Burgers going to get his parade of being a true American hero for being too afraid to go into the corners to get the puck?

 

[jkutswings]

I’m able to criticize athletes for failing in their chosen field without anybody’s help, and I’m frankly stunned that it’s viewed as a hot take.

Am I missing something? The bulk of the recent conversation has revolved around Simone Biles, who is an athlete completely at the other end of the spectrum from failing in their chosen field.

 

[RabidBadger]

Web search "Simone Biles" and "weak" and you'll see exactly the narrative you're discussing coming exclusively from one branch of media. All the vocal media critics of Simone fall neatly into one camp. You know, the same camp that found NFL players kneeling a problem. Or NHL warm-up jerseys.

(Just a note to everyone, this isn't an invitation to open up the political Pandora's Box)

I doubt you align with them, but it's quite a coincidence you have all their "weak" talking points in your back pocket if you don't follow them. Especially when it's such an unpopular stance to begin with. You'd make up an even smaller fraction of that previously discussed 13%. That's where the eyebrow raising is coming from.

Nonetheless, I've appreciated the actual discussion and desire to engage, even if I think you're a little old school on your views on this issue.

It's stupifying to see the criticism of people performing at the most elite levels from people who can't get off of the couch .

 

[izlez]

Am I missing something? The bulk of the recent conversation has revolved around Simone Biles, who is an athlete completely at the other end of the spectrum from failing in their chosen field.

Sorry for not using precise enough language that caused confusion for you.

Simone Biles, who is an elite athlete and the greatest female gymnast of all-time, failed at the 2020 Olympics.

This was on the biggest stage when it mattered most. She didn't fall short of expectations by a small amount, but a very large amount. I am criticizing her for that. Can Lebron James not face criticism of a time he had a bad game in the finals, while also not being one of the greatest of all time?

It's stupifying to see the criticism of people performing at the most elite levels from people who can't get off of the couch .

We are on a sports message board. We criticize athletes way better than us all the time. Personally, I have long since understood every comment comes along with an implied understanding that we are talking about their performance in relation to their peers and I don't need a disclaimer for that every time.

If you want to be childish and want me to copy/paste that disclaimer every time, fine, I guess I can do that. I can also be childish and look into that time *20 minutes* before you posted this to criticize Max Plante's decision making and skating and ask you what right you have to do that from your couch? Or how did your NHL career go?