Friedman: ANA - Leafs Montour

[Tit]

At the asking price of a Rielly / Muzzin replacement lol

Are you the GM of the ducks?

 

[Liferleafer]

Because it's trivial and doesn't matter in the context of the point. Flatly, a substantial percentage (more than 50%) of his ES and PP PTs come on a line with an All-Star caliber Center. Good Enough for you?

Who does Montour play with? Lindholm? Huh....i guess we should discredit him because he plays with the Ducks best Dman close to a 3rd of the time at even strength. And again....Johnsson worked his way into the top 6...is it a surprise that 50% of his points come from playing top 6?

 

[StephenPeat]

Huh....that's strange, because in a lot of GDTs on the Leafs board, we were continually screaming about moving Johnsson up from the 3rd/4th lines....but what would I know from watching every game? Those pretty charts tell the whole story i guess.

And maybe most rookies don't earn the right to move up the lineup....i guess that only happens in Toronto.

No, unlike you, those pretty charts DON'T lie, distort, or fabricate to confuse context and ACTUALLY record and tabulate things that can't be denied. You could remove any inference from my argument that you think is diminishing Johnsson's production and the numbers won't change. They are what they are, whatever intangible window-dressing you'd like to apply is irrelevant. Facts are facts and you're opinion is FAKE NEWS.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

straw man
Dictionary result for straw man

/ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
noun: strawman

1. 1.
   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
   "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"

The arguments here are just not very good, have you read them?

 

[StephenPeat]

Who does Montour play with? Lindholm? Huh....i guess we should discredit him because he plays with the Ducks best Dman close to a 3rd of the time at even strength. And again....Johnsson worked his way into the top 6...is it a surprise that 50% of his points come from playing top 6?

That's all well-and-good but the Leafs Top 6 is not the League-Average Top 6 (and I'd say League-wide places much higher relatively than the Ducks Top 4 compared to other D groups around the League) and among those players, it's hard to argue Johnsson is one of the players LEAST responsible for the potency of that Top 6.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

If you read the post, that is completely beside the point. The Kings had reason to sell Muzzin for picks and prospects - he is an impending UFA. There's no motivation for the Ducks to sell Montour for that type of return, he is still under RFA control after this contract.

My having misspoke about the duration of his current deal, really doesn't affect the point I'm making from the Ducks perspective, nor is it an example of irony.

I agree with the sentiment of your original post.

I just found it funny how you chose to frame the contract situation of two players with identical term to try to devalue one and increase the value of the other.

 

[Avilaj07]

Most I'm offering from a Leafs perspective is

To Toronto-
Montour

To Anaheim-
Johnsson
Liljegren

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Because it's trivial and doesn't matter in the context of the point. Flatly, a substantial percentage (more than 50%) of his ES and PP PTs come on a line with an All-Star caliber Center. Good Enough for you?

Yup that is a lot more accurate than saying 2/3rds of his points at ES. I get why you would want to misrepresent it as it furthers your point.

 

[StephenPeat]

Yup that is a lot more accurate than saying 2/3rds of his points at ES. I get why you would want to misrepresent it as it furthers your point.

Again this phrase perfectly encapsulates and summarizes my point. And regardless of however you'd like to spin it, my numbers are SLIGHTLY closer than the LEAFS FAN who said Johnsson hasn't played a shift with Marner or Tavares. You need some milk to wash that down or maybe some MAALOX?

I dont think Johnsson has ever played a shift with either Tavares or Marner let alone considerable time. Could be wrong

Edit I guess he did play there briefly maybe after Christmas?.

 

[Liferleafer]

That's all well-and-good but the Leafs Top 6 is not the League-Average Top 6 (and I'd say League-wide places much higher relatively than the Ducks Top 4 compared to other D groups around the League) and among those players, it's hard to argue Johnsson is one of the players LEAST responsible for the potency of that Top 6.

Interesting....tell me, who's most responsible for the Ducks winning 3 games out of their last 27?

Listen, i get not wanting to make a trade, but these threads that reach so far to find so many ways to devalue players are hilarious. Johnsson has 31 points in 51 games as a rookie....and you are twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to explain why that's somehow a mirage.

 

[StephenPeat]

Interesting....tell me, who's most responsible for the Ducks winning 3 games out of their last 27?

Listen, i get not wanting to make a trade, but these threads that reach so far to find so many ways to devalue players are hilarious. Johnsson has 31 points in 51 games as a rookie....and you are twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to explain why that's somehow a mirage.

I'm not twisting myself into anything. I'm just reporting some realities to those among us who don't think Leaf tweeners are worth other Teams Top-Half of the lineup talent.

 

[Liferleafer]

I'm not twisting myself into anything. I'm just reporting some realities to those among us who don't think Leaf tweeners are worth other Teams Top-Half of the lineup talent.

There is only 1 reality when discussing Johnsson....31 points in 51 games. Is he worth Montour? Maybe not, but devaluing what the kid has done is not 'reality".
Andreas Johnsson Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

[joestevens29]

Uh, pretty sure the quote is from Dubas.

If it is then it's tampering

 

[StephenPeat]

There is only 1 reality when discussing Johnsson....31 points in 51 games. Is he worth Montour? Maybe not, but devaluing what the kid has done is not 'reality".
Andreas Johnsson Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

I'd like you to find one thing I've said that is not only "'not reality"" but also not supported by things anyone can find by doing a simple search on an analytics site. Not the ephemeral "he's good because I watch him and I say he's good" you keep resorting to. I'm not devaluing "the kid" I'm just exposing some underlying context that you don't like because it makes his offensive #s, which are really the only arguments you have that he's valuable in a discussion for a Top 4D, seem more pedestrian and brings his value back to the realm of reality that seems to make you uncomfortable.

 

[Liferleafer]

I'd like you to find one thing I've said that is not only "'not reality"" but also not supported by things anyone can find by doing a simple search on an analytics site. Not the ephemeral "he's good because I watch him and I say he's good" you keep resorting to. I'm not devaluing "the kid" I'm just exposing some underlying context that you don't like because it makes his offensive #s, which are really the only arguments you have that he's valuable in a discussion for a Top 4D, seem more pedestrian and brings his value back to the realm of reality that seems to make you uncomfortable.

As hard as it is for the new generation of 'keyboard hockey fans" to believe, sometimes watching a game will tell you a lot more than tapping a few keys and looking at some pretty colored charts. Want proof? Jake Gardiner....analytic darling.

 

[novon04]

Wow, so that guy doesn't watch the Leafs and you cant read a chart that you posted. Check those Top 3 Lines in that table accounting for the most significant chunk of Johnsson's TOI (~57%). As those are the most significant combinations let's keep our focus squarely there. Of that sample (accounting for the most sizable chunk of Johnsson's TOI), he's spent 57.68% (33.3%/57.73%) or approximately 2/3 of the bulk of his TOI with Kapanen/Matthews or Marner/Tavares. How exactly am I way off?

What? You literally said he spent 2/3 of his ice time with either Matthews/Kapanen or Tavares/Marner. The link shows you he has spent about 18 % of his ES ice time with Matthews/Kapanen and 15 % with Tavares/Marner. Now you're suddenly looking at only the three most common combinations to come to that 57 % number which makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Most I'm offering from a Leafs perspective is

To Toronto-
Montour

To Anaheim-
Johnsson
Liljegren

I’d still rather get Manson. The long term contract is the difference maker.

 

[LucicAndChong]

I mean if Dubas is unwilling to move Nylander, I think in order to get Montour you’re going for a package involving Kapanen, Brown/Jonsson, Lilje/Sandin??? Something like that. Leaf fans will say we can’t give up those pieces etc etc. Ducks fans may want more I’m not sure. But if this is to be done without Nylander I think it’s that kind of package.

Are you saying it would take Kapanen AND one of each of Lilj, Sandin, Brown, Johnsson?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I’d still rather get Manson. The long term contract is the difference maker.

I feel like manson would be a decent amount more than Montour... and a lot more teams interested if manson became available

 

[Kamiccolo]

The arguments here are just not very good, have you read them?

Yes and I believe you are misrepresenting several good ones in favor of the bad ones.

 

[Liferleafer]

I feel like manson would be a decent amount more than Montour... and a lot more teams interested if manson became available

Depends on the style of D teams might want. Manson fits TO perfectly, while Montour is a more 'flashy?" choice that may appeal to more teams.

 

[zeke]

There is only 1 reality when discussing Johnsson....31 points in 51 games. Is he worth Montour? Maybe not, but devaluing what the kid has done is not 'reality".
Andreas Johnsson Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Johnsson is better than montour.

Montour is a dman that can't defend and isn't very good offensively either.

 

[zeke]

Most I'm offering from a Leafs perspective is

To Toronto-
Montour

To Anaheim-
Johnsson
Liljegren

that is an insane overpay.

 

[Tit]

I’d still rather get Manson. The long term contract is the difference maker.

Manson is also much better than Montour.
If I'm giving up Liljegren+ it's only for Manson.
Montour would receive a slightly less package in my mind.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Manson is also much better than Montour.
If I'm giving up Liljegren+ it's only for Manson.
Montour would receive a slightly less package in my mind.

I’d give Bracco + for Montour
Or Liljigren + for Manson