An idea to remove the cap advantage for no tax states

[Sypher04]

The bolded is why you were being asked to quantify. Which you dismissed as not doable, preferring instead to keep going on about how all these other things were clearly nonissues.

Contrary to your condescending link you posted before, the onus is not on me to prove tax benefits. I’m not an accountant, and don’t know the tax code at the level of multimillionaires. Like others here, I’ve formed my opinion based on what others who are in a position to know have said on the subject. If you have a problem with it, take it up with those people.

Also I never said the other things brought up, such as endorsements are no big deal. I said they have no place in a cap calculation because they are not NHL income. That’s it.

 

[Viqsi]

Contrary to your condescending link you posted before, the onus is not on me to prove tax benefits. I’m not an accountant, and don’t know the tax code at the level of multimillionaires. Like others here, I’ve formed my opinion based on what others who are in a position to know have said on the subject. If you have a problem with it, take it up with those people.

Also I never said the other things brought up, such as endorsements are no big deal. I said they have no place in a cap calculation because they are not NHL income. That’s it.

And taxes are not NHL costs, but you're still focusing on that issue exclusively.

 

[TatteredTornNFrayed]

"Not much talk about how to fix it"

Surely, you jest.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Contrary to your condescending link you posted before, the onus is not on me to prove tax benefits. I’m not an accountant, and don’t know the tax code at the level of multimillionaires. Like others here, I’ve formed my opinion based on what others who are in a position to know have said on the subject. If you have a problem with it, take it up with those people.

Also I never said the other things brought up, such as endorsements are no big deal. I said they have no place in a cap calculation because they are not NHL income. That’s it.

When a player pays taxes in 20+ different states and provinces, and qualifies for deductions and some don’t qualify even though on the same team, makes it a nightmare,
Which is why nothing will be done imo.

 

[PensandCaps]

how are we gonna fix the advantage the Toronto, Boston, NY, and Montreal have in alluring players to their teams because of their markets and hometown connections?


I'd say its pretty unfair that I've seen many times where teams get screwed out of their college prospects because they want to go to Boston or New York. Along with the advantage these markets have with signing bonuses and front loading contracts. But for some reason people only pick on Florida taxes, lmao.

 

[Sypher04]

And taxes are not NHL costs, but you're still focusing on that issue exclusively.

Taxation directly impacts net NHL income. It’s a false equivalency with endorsements. That’s really all my point was.

Also, last I checked, this thread was about taxation imbalance, so it shouldn’t be surprising that’s the point I’m looking to speak to. I’m not now nor have I ever claimed there aren’t other imbalances in the league. Deal with all that makes sense to as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think anything should ever be done without qualified individuals doing an in depth study to do determine the actual relevance/impact.

I think signing bonus imbalance is more likely a rule change than something that would be tackled through cap adjustments

Anyways, I do need to go now. Circular arguments bore me though, so I admittedly may or may not come back to this.

 

[wetcoast]

The OP's premise is flawed as players who make the huge money have tax loopholes in every state and province that's the whole nature of tax codes.

Also if a player is choosing not to sign on your team becasue of tax codes then that's a guy I wouldn't want on my team come playoff time anyways.

It's summer so we will have lots of threads like this sucking up the oxygen in the room until there is some actual hockey to watch again.

 

[Laus723]

Florida teams didn’t do dick the first 16 years of the CBA. One was an absolute disaster for 10 of those years under former ownership who continuously tried to build a casino to “fund the team.” When he was turned down, he put up internal caps, made players buy their own team worn jerseys, made them pay for meals, etc.

New ownership comes in for both teams. Tampa’s owner upgrades the arena and shows fans they’re appreciated among several investments by him…they win two Cups. Florida’s new ownership took a lot longer, 10 years, to get over the disastrous previous ownership, finally do and they win a Cup. Panthers wouldn’t have done it under Tallon.

It takes great management and ownership. Doesn’t mean a recipe for a Cup, but to break it down to taxes is a joke. And you’re fooling yourselves.

Was Holland a good GM? Dubas? Dorian? The list goes on and on. Panthers didn’t have a good manager since their first few years till Tallon did SOME good things, but Zito still had to clean things up. Compare the two, focus on the year he brought in Bob, Connolly, and Stralman with their contracts to the different guys Zito has brought in.

 

[ameselare]

I am not a tax expert or accountant. I grew up in a nice area and know plenty of wealthy people. What I do know is that rich people know how to hire accountants and financial advisors who know how to maneuver things to save them money on taxes and just in general.

I think NHL players sign with teams and sign certain deals for a variety of reasons - family, weather, travel/conference, teammates, direction of team, wanting to win a Cup, money, attention in the market, coaching staff, etc. State/provincial income tax is certainly a factor for some. Trotz knows this and uses this to his advantage - that's his job. I'm sure there's plenty of players who could be working with much better financial advisors and/or accountants.

When the next batch of contending teams arises and some/many aren't from no-tax states I'm sure this conversation will die down again.

 

[JP Mick]

Do Canadians not realize that the people in those states still pay federal taxes?

And the state gets their money one way or another. In Florida we pay sales tax, property tax, etc...

 

[TGWL]

This is one of the worst ideas I've heard regaring the tax advantage/disadvantage

EDIT: I made it to the second post before deciding that you both can fight over who came up with the absolute worst idea.

Just pass laws at the state/provincial level that says athletes are exempt from state income taxes.

 

[JPT]

And the state gets their money one way or another. In Florida we pay sales tax, property tax, etc...

More apt descriptors would be regressive tax states and progressive tax states.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

K. Not an advantage at all or a determining factor. Thanks for clarifying that. A player from say Kapuskasing would absolutely be more happy to be near Kapuskasing than say Miami. Who wouldn't want to be born and grow up in Vanderhoof and play near Vanderhoof over Dallas. Every single kid growing up in Estevan Saskatchewan would give it up to play for Calgary or Edmonton over Las Vegas.

Playing near home from those fine metropolitan areas is absolutely worth leaving 45% or more of one's yearly take home on the table.

Sorry mate, I know I am being a bit d-baggish here but I am genuinely stunned because that's not how human behaviour works. 1 out of every 100 people would maybe take a bit of a shave to be near home but by and large; but by and large sir; it's not happening and an additional 3-4 million ensures you can make your family home wherever you are at that point and comfortably. Or visit whenever you want


Again for reference.

Tavares makes $11 million a year. His take home AFTER federal, provincial taxes and CCP/EI comes to $5,144,348. Or in essence he is losing $5,855,652 in total dollars every year.

Can you walk me through your calculation?

 

[Kelevra]

Why is there no Cdn/US conversion advantage for Canadian teams. Making in USD and spending in CDN should be a big advantage

 

[Kaners PPGs]

When the next batch of contending teams arises and some/many aren't from no-tax states I'm sure this conversation will die down again.

It will if their star players leave millions of dollars on the table, regardless of being in a "taxed" state, in order to keep the team together.

 

[My3Sons]

The league is well aware of this issue like they are LTIR. If enough owners cared they’d do something about it. I’ve seen where some NBA agents have suggested the tax impacts on the individual athletes are overblown by the media.

 

[pb1300]

Not enough 14% in this thread.

 

[pb1300]

How about we compare Edmonton and Florida's attendance and tv viewership over the past 10 years. Or 20 years. Or since Florida's inception. Your team has really only been relevant for 15min and you're now suggesting other teams move to help increase attendance/viewership. Brilliant. Your team has been a joke for most of it's existence and has finally had a small run of success, and you decide now's the time to chirp about where teams should be located. Last season you were finally top 10 in attendance (still behind Edmonton of course), but the year before Florida had the 7th worst attendance. Sounds like bandwagon fans. What happens if Florida stats to slip again? Maybe we can move them to Houston. We know the success the Florida Marlins has been. Even the Dolphins are low on the attendance charts. Just not a great sports market I suppose.

Blah blah blah. Someone's feelings got hurt, so that have to regurgitate the same ol shit we've heard in the past. Florida was trash, their attendance was horrible, words words words. Lets see which teams in the league wouldnt have the same issues as the Panthers have had in the past, if they had the Panthers history. A major majority of the league would have been in the same shoes as the Panthers, if not worse.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Why is there no Cdn/US conversion advantage for Canadian teams. Making in USD and spending in CDN should be a big advantage

It's more of a negative because the CDN teams earn revenue in CND$ and have to pay player salary in USD.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Trotz: 'No question' teams in tax-free states have advantage

Nashville Predators general manager Barry Trotz knows his team has an edge over the majority of NHL clubs.Being situated in Tennessee - one of the U.S.' nine states that doesn't levy a state income tax - Predators players are able to keep more of their money.In a league with a hard salary cap...

www.thescore.com

"It is an advantage because your dollar goes a little bit farther," Trotz said on TSN's "Overdrive" on Wednesday. "There's no question." "When you talk to Stamkos or Marchessault or players that are serial winners, guys that have gone deep, have had good careers, and made a lot of money, it doesn't go that far," Trotz continued. "But it does help the middle group a little bit."


Four of the last five Stanley Cup Champions play in tax-free states: the Panthers (2024), Golden Knights (2023), and Lightning (2021, 2020).

A topic that gets debated on a lot, we have a GM of one of these markets admitting it is an advantage.

 

[TheOne]

Anything to blame other than the core 4..

 

[Jacob]

I proposed an easy solution to this but was attacked for it.

 

[Johnny Rifle]

There is much more than mere tax rates in play when players choose where to sign. Local politics, school options, endorsement opportunities, nightlife, climate, and coaching staff are just a few of the many things that a player will consider.

Florida may be tax free but some people may not enjoy the climate, where New York and Toronto are heavily taxed but have more opportunities to make extra cash on the side through endorsements or investments.

Just quit whining and make your team more desirable by improving coaching and facilities.

 

[TMLegend]

Anything to blame other than the core 4..

Not sure where you got the Leafs core 4 from his post. Maybe try to stay on topic?

It's always been obvious that teams in tax free areas have a financial advantage. Trotz isn't saying anything earth shattering here.

A soft cap system is the solution, but the owners will never go for it given how hard they fought for a hard cap in the 2005 lockout.

 

[DFC]

I have an idea. Give them endorsement money.