All Things Pegula 2

[beerme1]

He should sell. He failed.

I don't think he can now even if he wanted too. Nobody gonna pay a billion dollars for a team that probably hasn't made money in Pegula's entire ownership other than maybe the first year.
Bills are a different story but he will sell a minority stake and laugh all the way to the bank with that operation.

 

[joshjull]

I don't think he can now even if he wanted too. Nobody gonna pay a billion dollars for a team that probably hasn't made money in Pegula's entire ownership other than maybe the first year.
Bills are a different story but he will sell a minority stake and laugh all the way to the bank with that operation.

He could sell a 25% minority stake in the Sabres or rather the LLC that owns them like he's doing with the Bills. He would get back what he paid for them and then some, which is wild.

 

[joshjull]

When Pegula dissolved PSE and separated the Bills and Sabres ownership. What does the Sabres ownership look like now? When Pegula bought the Sabres he was buying Hockey Western New York LLC which owned the Sabres and Bandits. Not long after it (the LLC) bought the Amerks. I’m assuming he split off that LLC or created a new one that owns the Sabres, Amerks and Bandits.

 

[TehDoak]

He could sell a 25% minority stake in the Sabres or rather the LLC that owns them like he's doing with the Bills. He would get back what he paid for them and then some, which is wild.

Assuming anyone would actually pay at that valuation.

They supposedly have looked into selling to private equity in the past (this was rumored a few years ago) and it fell through. My guess is that it would hard for him to sell off any piece of the team without ceding some actual control/oversight. The team is run like a family business currently more than a 1 billion dollar business.

 

[Beerz]

He isn't selling.

The team will go to his daughter by the looks of it.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

He isn't selling.

The team will go to his daughter by the looks of it.

I thought this was common knowledge. Even though I think part of the equation is cheap ownership, Pegula seemingly has no way to ever capitalize of the value of the franchise. If he sells part, that is shorting his daughter some amount of control. If it's all going to her, he doesn't see a dime without some other creative money move on her part.

 

[joshjull]

I thought this was common knowledge. Even though I think part of the equation is cheap ownership, Pegula seemingly has no way to ever capitalize of the value of the franchise. If he sells part, that is shorting his daughter some amount of control. If it's all going to her, he doesn't see a dime without some other creative money move on her part.

Wouldn’t short her any control if she has at least 51%.

 

[slip]

Wouldn’t short her any control if she has at least 51%.

Something tells me she would have no desire to talk to her GM multiple times a day. She might even hire a hockey ops guy to act as a go between her and the GM. She might hire -- wait for it -- real professionals to run her business, not groveling acolytes to stroke her insatiable boss man ego.

 

[TehDoak]

Wouldn’t short her any control if she has at least 51%.

I am actually curious how partial team ownership works.

Is it similar to stock where they are not responsible for the day to day costs but simply cash out when they sell.

Or if they own a 30% are they responsible for chipping in if the team operates at a loss.

 

[Ace]

If your owner ever uses the word economical to describe their organizational plan they should be forced to sell the team immediately.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Dear Terry,

To have the ego of the rich- claims to be a childhood fan of the team, buys it. Absolutely runs it into the ground. Clearly awful management decisions along the way. Won’t spend money, because budget, but has money for a mega-yacht. Decides to leave the team to his daughter, so that his failure isn’t limited, but a legacy we’ll remember even once he’s gone.

Congrats on killing your favorite childhood team, you absolute and utter plank. I think the childhood version of you would be ashamed of what the f*** happened in your life, but maybe you’ve always sucked, idk. I just can’t imagine how a logical brain feels good about your contributions or your legacy. You’re a fracking asshole.

Sincerely,
A fed-up fan.

 

[MOGlLNY]

I have no problem with Terry’s daughters getting the team as long as long as they’re willing to do the right things to get this franchise where it needs to be. And not trying to Jerry Jones the organization.

 

[joshjull]

Something tells me she would have no desire to talk to her GM multiple times a day. She might even hire a hockey ops guy to act as a go between her and the GM. She might hire -- wait for it -- real professionals to run her business, not groveling acolytes to stroke her insatiable boss man ego.

I just hope she hires really good hockey people to run hockey ops.

 

[sabremike]

I have no problem with Terry’s daughters getting the team as long as long as they’re willing to do the right things to get this franchise where it needs to be. And not trying to Jerry Jones the organization.

I wish he would put them in charge now. Make them the ones going to board of governors meetings and the public face of the team.

 

[stealth1]

Dear Terry,

To have the ego of the rich- claims to be a childhood fan of the team, buys it. Absolutely runs it into the ground. Clearly awful management decisions along the way. Won’t spend money, because budget, but has money for a mega-yacht. Decides to leave the team to his daughter, so that his failure isn’t limited, but a legacy we’ll remember even once he’s gone.

Congrats on killing your favorite childhood team, you absolute and utter plank. I think the childhood version of you would be ashamed of what the f*** happened in your life, but maybe you’ve always sucked, idk. I just can’t imagine how a logical brain feels good about your contributions or your legacy. You’re a fracking asshole.

Sincerely,
A fed-up fan.

I agree with you. IMO everything changed the day he bought the damn Bills. Prior to that things were starting to look up for the Sabres and the area around the arena. He had put money into revitalizing the downtown area with the Harbor center and felt like he cared about the Sabres.

As soon as he bought the Bills it all changed. They became priority number 1 and the Sabres were left to rot. He cut the budget and has lost interest in them.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I don't think he can now even if he wanted too. Nobody gonna pay a billion dollars for a team that probably hasn't made money in Pegula's entire ownership other than maybe the first year.
Bills are a different story but he will sell a minority stake and laugh all the way to the bank with that operation.

There are a lineup of billionaires ready to buy franchises which is how the price was established.

 

[TehDoak]

There are a lineup of billionaires ready to buy franchises which is how the price was established.

In one of the NHLs smallest market whose sports entertainment dollar is taken by the NFL for half of the season
With the worst reputation league wide
In need of either a new arena or very expensive remodel and a whole new front office.

I think the worst news is that the NHL likely wouldn't allow the Pegulas to sell the team because they wouldn't get a buyer who would keep them in Buffalo and pay a number that would keep franchise values soaring. Unless there is some Buffalo NY billionaire whose dream it is to come and fix the team.

 

[stealth1]

In one of the NHLs smallest market whose sports entertainment dollar is taken by the NFL for half of the season
With the worst reputation league wide
In need of either a new arena or very expensive remodel and a whole new front office.

I think the worst news is that the NHL likely wouldn't allow the Pegulas to sell the team because they wouldn't get a buyer who would keep them in Buffalo and pay a number that would keep franchise values soaring. Unless there is some Buffalo NY billionaire whose dream it is to come and fix the team.

Maybe it's time the Sabres leave and Buffalo becomes a minor league city with an NFL team. You talk about the sports entertainment dollar mostly going to the Bills. What's going to happen when the new stadium open?

IMO the arena at one time looked like they had plans to fix it up. Pegula had spent the money to revitalize the Arena area. Once Harbor center was built they stopped doing anything to the area.

 

[sabremike]

In one of the NHLs smallest market whose sports entertainment dollar is taken by the NFL for half of the season
With the worst reputation league wide
In need of either a new arena or very expensive remodel and a whole new front office.

I think the worst news is that the NHL likely wouldn't allow the Pegulas to sell the team because they wouldn't get a buyer who would keep them in Buffalo and pay a number that would keep franchise values soaring. Unless there is some Buffalo NY billionaire whose dream it is to come and fix the team.

If the Sabres were competitive instead of the worst organization in all of sports do you seriously think they'd be struggling at the gate? If you had this kind of run in any other city with the exception of a handful of markets they'd be drawing <5,000 most nights. People are desperate for this team to give them a reason to buy tickets but they simply refuse to give it to them.

 

[Gabrielor]

I don’t think it’s him. I think Adams is the reason.

We spent money on the bottom 6, defense and goaltending. The only place we haven’t is the top 6.

We are in the unusual situation of having 3 ELCs in our top 6 which drives the payroll down. Obviously that’s where your bigger forward salaries are. But those are Adams guys, he drafted all 3 of the ELCs. (Peterka/Quinn/Benson). I mean the entire top 6 are essentially all Adams guys at this point. He either drafted them, committed to them with big extensions (Tage/Cozens) or traded for them (Tuch).

The last two offseasons Adams has shown an overconfidence in the roster or specific players when putting the roster together that caused problems. It’s still early, so maybe it corrects itself with Quinn/Benson getting on track. But so far a kid heavy 2nd line has been a mess.

But I don’t think Pegula had anything to do with this top 6 and by extension the overall payroll being where it is.

EDIT: and if Friedman’s reporting is true, Adams realizes his mistake as well and is trying to find a fix it. Better late than never I guess, not that I expect anything to happen.

It's grey, for sure, but I'll default to the higher seeded guy in the grey.

I still think a forward trade is a good idea....and at this point, I'd like James Reimer back please.

 

[TehDoak]

I think its nigh impossible to really look at the last few years of the budget conscience Sabres and not think this isn't part of the issue:

Bills' new stadium costs balloon to $2.1 billion, $560 million over initial estimate, team tells AP

The projected cost of the Buffalo Bills' new stadium has ballooned to what team officials told The Associated Press is “north of $2.1 billion.”

apnews.com

560M is a lot when it comes to 'unexpected' costs, even a billionaire. The money that comes from NYS/Erie county is almost all in tax breaks, so they aren't getting a check. This is likely all financed at a time when interest rates aren't very friendly.

According to: Buffalo Bills on the Forbes NFL Team Valuations List, the Bills 'net' revenue is around 170M a year. The assumption is that the new stadium will increase that quite a bit. Lowering operating costs, better margins, higher ticket costs. And yes, a higher franchise valuation.

But if he had to finance 1B+ to build the stadium, you are looking at spending 70-80M a year just in interest before even start paying down the principal. I get it, they are rich as f*** and will be fine...that is still a huge cashflow interruption.

 

[Beerz]

I think its nigh impossible to really look at the last few years of the budget conscience Sabres and not think this isn't part of the issue:

Bills' new stadium costs balloon to $2.1 billion, $560 million over initial estimate, team tells AP

The projected cost of the Buffalo Bills' new stadium has ballooned to what team officials told The Associated Press is “north of $2.1 billion.”

apnews.com

560M is a lot when it comes to 'unexpected' costs, even a billionaire. The money that comes from NYS/Erie county is almost all in tax breaks, so they aren't getting a check. This is likely all financed at a time when interest rates aren't very friendly.

According to: Buffalo Bills on the Forbes NFL Team Valuations List, the Bills 'net' revenue is around 170M a year. The assumption is that the new stadium will increase that quite a bit. Lowering operating costs, better margins, higher ticket costs. And yes, a higher franchise valuation.

But if he had to finance 1B+ to build the stadium, you are looking at spending 70-80M a year just in interest before even start paying down the principal. I get it, they are rich as f*** and will be fine...that is still a huge cashflow interruption.

And he probably gets 1 billion dollars when he sells 25% of the Bills.

 

[joshjull]

It's grey, for sure, but I'll default to the higher seeded guy in the grey.

I still think a forward trade is a good idea....and at this point, I'd like James Reimer back please.

I know you believe that. But what are you basing it on? Not spending to the upper limit in and of itself is not evidence of one.

The narrative of Pegula imposing an internal budget or only spending near the lower limit started after he gutted the front office+ made his “economic and efficient” comments in the 2020 off-season. All of that was about the front office, maybe PSE as well. But it wasn’t about the roster as the very first season after those comments showed.

Our payrolls since those comments

2021 —> Near upper limit (19mil or so above lower limit)
21-22 -> Near the lower limit
22-23 -> At the lower limit
23-24 -> Just above mid-point (12mil or so over lower limit)
24-25 -> Between mid-point+ upper limit (16mil or so above lower limit/17-18mil with Skinner buyout)

If there is an internal budget, it has to be based on something. I don’t see any pattern above that suggests one. The spending is all over the place.** They've also lost money in all of those seasons. They will continue to lose money until they rebuild their season ticket base to where it was years ago and make playoff runs. Which means there is no possible “break even/make a little money” motive for the spending either. Because its not in the cards right now.

**But the spending pattern above does have team building explanations. Tried to build a good team and failed miserably. So they tore it down, rebuilt with a lot of inexpensive youth and are now paying the youth.


The above and Adams actions since the 2023 offseason is why I place the blame for our season so far on our GM, not Pegula. He has consistently favored his guys at the expense of the team.

1) Didn’t make any real changes in the summer of 2023. Even though they were obviously needed. But he wanted to see if his group could take the next step themselves. So nothing was done.

2) Granato —> In an interview after Donny’s firing, Adams admitted a change was probably needed in late November of that season. Now most GMs would fire that coach after they came to that conclusion. Then make the change they felt needed to happen. But not Adams, He said he’d give Donny a chance to see if he could save things. Wasting a season for a friend if you will.

3) Levi —-> He keeps trying to force this kid onto the NHL roster at the expense of our goaltending situation. He’s done it two years in a row now. We were incredibly lucky Reimer got waived right when UPL got hurt.


ALL of the above is why I feel very confident that the issues with the top 6 are on Adams and his decions, not an internal budget. Adams yet again favoring guys at the expense of the team. The entire top 6 are his draft picks, trade adds and guys he committed big money to. He wasn’t going to disrupt that to get a vet top 6 forward or two in here. It fits with the actions I listed above. All of which undermined this team.

 

[Jim Bob]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5925301/2024/11/19/nhl-ownership-fan-survey-2024-25/

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[sabremike]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5925301/2024/11/19/nhl-ownership-fan-survey-2024-25/

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This was my rating of Pegula:

Absolute zero - Wikipedia

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