All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread pt 8- wait we're spending HOW MUCH?

[AD Skinner]

Well sure but I mean a streak is a streak. Playoff teams wanted him on them seems like an endorsement

 

[NotOpie]

My take is that Haula and Dzingel need to replace the 90-95 points that Williams and Ferland produced last season....and that's just break even.

We've said all along we need to "add" scoring. Counting on Necas to be that "extra" is problematic....even if/when Svech takes the next step.

Williams not coming back would be more than a blow to the leadership of the team, it would be a big deal in the scoring department.

 

[My Special Purpose]

My take is that Haula and Dzingel need to replace the 90-95 points that Williams and Ferland produced last season....and that's just break even.

We've said all along we need to "add" scoring. Counting on Necas to be that "extra" is problematic....even if/when Svech takes the next step.

Williams not coming back would be more than a blow to the leadership of the team, it would be a big deal in the scoring department.

Again, I say to you the same thing I said last offseason when we jettisoned Skinner -- and also to paraphrase Don Waddell -- "replacing" a number of points is a worthless concept. All that matters is winning games.

I'm not suggesting addition-by-subtraction in the case of Williams/Ferland, only that the players set to replace them are very good at hockey and we will be fine, even if we score a couple fewer goals. This team will come together just like last season's team did. They will have strengths and weaknesses. And it will lead to different stats. To say we *need* to replace X number of points between two players is just silly.

It's about results.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Agreed. And I think we are in line for pretty good results as well. I think we'll probably be a steadier team this year as well. I think the highs and lows will be evened out a lot more. Score a bit more, a bit less, or roughly the same, I think we'll be just fine. I still hope we bring back Williams, but I have confidence in this team and management to keep us in a position to win. Just the fact that they are looking at other backup plans to strengthen the team and not just resting on what we have if Williams doesn't come back is beyond refreshing.

 

[bleedgreen]

My take is that Haula and Dzingel need to replace the 90-95 points that Williams and Ferland produced last season....and that's just break even.

We've said all along we need to "add" scoring. Counting on Necas to be that "extra" is problematic....even if/when Svech takes the next step.

Williams not coming back would be more than a blow to the leadership of the team, it would be a big deal in the scoring department.

We didn’t win in the end because we didn’t have enough skill. We’ve lost a fair amount of it over the last two seasons, and it’s questionable how much we’ve brought back. Far too much is made about our addition by subtraction concept last season by our fans. Gritty tuffness work hard is a great concept but we need to score goals too. Expecting a repeat of last season will be the death of this one, we won’t be the same team. Even with Williams we’re already softer than last season.

Williams is slowing down but he can still catch a pass and bury and needed goal. I don’t know that we’ve replaced enough talent, we’re really counting on the kids developing. Hopefully Necas can make an impact.

 

[My Special Purpose]

We didn’t win in the end because we didn’t have enough skill. We’ve lost a fair amount of it over the last two seasons, and it’s questionable how much we’ve brought back. Far too much is made about our addition by subtraction concept last season by our fans. Gritty tuffness work hard is a great concept but we need to score goals too. Expecting a repeat of last season will be the death of this one, we won’t be the same team. Even with Williams we’re already softer than last season.

Williams is slowing down but he can still catch a pass and bury and needed goal. I don’t know that we’ve replaced enough talent, we’re really counting on the kids developing. Hopefully Necas can make an impact.

Saying the same thing a different way still leads us to the same place. This year's team is *different* than last year's team. Time will tell if it's different and more successful, or different and less successful. To say we're going to struggle because we lost X, completely ignores that we added Y.

On top of that, I think you're wrong. If the trade-off is Williams/Ferland for Haula/Dzingel/Boyle and a year of improvement for Aho and Svechnikov, I don't see how we've lost skill. Toughness, yeah, we've always had an issue there. But let's see how this plays out. As it stands, we've got a bunch of things going for us (overall depth, team speed, youthfulness, confidence).

And as always, the key to all this is a management team that is willing to change things up if it's not working. I'm not sure why anybody is worried about anything with the current set-up of our organization. We're talented, we're young, the pipeline is full, and management is stable and involved. What else do you guys want?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What is the “fair amount of skill” we lost over the past two seasons and didn’t replace?

Lindholm was a 15G 40 -45 point player in Carolina. The fact that he blew up in Calgary is irrelevant in terms of what we lost, because we never had a 70 point Lindholm.

Skinner averaged 27G/51p and -10 per season in Carolina and had 24G and was -27 in his final season. So we did lose a 25-30G scorer with Skinner, but replaced that output and we were not paying him $9m for his services regardless.

We added guys that replaced their scoring and skill (Hamilton, Svechnikov, Nino, Etc) and brought more to the game. Now we added Haula and Dzingel as well. I do get the concern about being softer without Ferland, but that only helped when he played that way, which, because of nagging injuries he only did for half the season.

 

[The S5]

What is the “fair amount of skill” we lost over the past two seasons and didn’t replace?

Lindholm was a 15G 40 -45 point player in Carolina. The fact that he blew up in Calgary is irrelevant in terms of what we lost, because we never had a 70 point Lindholm.

Skinner averaged 27G/51p and -10 per season in Carolina and had 24G and was -27 in his final season. So we did lose a 25-30G scorer with Skinner, but replaced that output and we were not paying him $9m for his services regardless.

We added guys that replaced their scoring and skill (Hamilton, Svechnikov, Nino, Etc) and brought more to the game. Now we added Haula and Dzingel as well. I do get the concern about being softer without Ferland, but that only helped when he played that way, which, because of nagging injuries he only did for half the season.

Additionally, Haula, Dzingel and Necas make an already fast team faster.
I don't think losing Ferland affects the team at all. I do worry about the Williams leadership factor though.

 

[Svechhammer]

I do get the concern about being softer without Ferland, but that only helped when he played that way, which, because of nagging injuries he only did for half the season.

And it wasn't even the half of the season during which we went on our tear.

Out: Nagging injuries plagued Ferland and CDH, and nearing retirement Williams.
In: Dzingel, Haula, Necas, and probably two of Bean, Fleury, and Priskie

We're replacing guys who aren't running on a full 8 cylinders at this point in their careers with guys who are humming along with finely tuned V10 engines. We beat teams last year with speed, and we just went all in with that regard. And all these guys who we added have a proven ability to score at least at the level of hockey they've been in thus far. Its not just that we have these goals to replace, we've taken the spot we know we have an advantage over others in, and exploited it.

Williams' leadership would be missed if he truly is gone, but that's also where I'm glad we're reaching out to Boyle as well as still have Jordan Staal on the roster. But we probably only really need that veteran presence for another year or so before these kids are ready to take it all on their own.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I hope Williams does come back as he makes us better. I like that the team is looking at other options just in case, but would prefer to have him back.

 

[bleedgreen]

When considering toughness, grit, and leadership lost I factor in DeHaan, as he was under rated in those aspects. Me saying that isn’t about Ferland directly, it’s the combined loss of Ferland, DeHaan and possibly Williams. Dzingel and Haula bring speed and hopefully some scoring but I don’t think anyone counts on them for the other aspects mentioned.

Losing Skinner, Lindy, Ryan, Hanifin, and maybe Williams while not keeping Ferland and to a far lesser extent DeHaan is a pretty dramatic loss in skill, regardless of how everyone wants to downplay each guy individually. They’re skill players and we replaced them generally with less skill players. Svech and Hamilton were really the only skill replacements there until we added Haula and Dzingel. Much of last season we were playing with an AHL level of skill up front. We hustled and hung in on every game, got great goaltending, got on a roll and rode it out.

The “old” team was short a couple of skill guys as it was, and despite the great work ethic we showed last year you’d think we need a blend of the new attitude infused with enough skill to make us dangerous consistently. I don’t know what to say if you don’t think we’ve given up skill over the last two off seasons (this season it’s just Ferland and maybe Williams), to get there you have to completely disregard good players we had with poor narratives about work ethic or whatever. The new team was great last year, we will probably carry through to this year with some good vibes, but our Achilles last year was offensive depth. The current roster could maybe use even more, depending on health and development.

 

[GoldiFox]

And it wasn't even the half of the season during which we went on our tear.

Out: Nagging injuries plagued Ferland and CDH, and nearing retirement Williams.
In: Dzingel, Haula, Necas, and probably two of Bean, Fleury, and Priskie

We're replacing guys who aren't running on a full 8 cylinders at this point in their careers with guys who are humming along with finely tuned V10 engines. We beat teams last year with speed, and we just went all in with that regard. And all these guys who we added have a proven ability to score at least at the level of hockey they've been in thus far. Its not just that we have these goals to replace, we've taken the spot we know we have an advantage over others in, and exploited it.

Williams' leadership would be missed if he truly is gone, but that's also where I'm glad we're reaching out to Boyle as well as still have Jordan Staal on the roster. But we probably only really need that veteran presence for another year or so before these kids are ready to take it all on their own.

Not sure "finely tuned v10 engines" is the best way to describe the new additions. The last NHL game Haula played he was stretchered off the ice with a nasty knee injury. Necas was a defensive disaster with the Canes last year and Rod wouldn't trust Fleury with more than 6-8 minutes a game. Bean and Priskie will be rookies. All of these guys will need a good stretch of games to get "finely tuned" and Necas/Fleury/Bean/Priskie might not even get to "NHL tuned" this year. Dzingle might be the closest to "well-tuned" but even he is coming off a disappointing stretch with Columbus where he scored 5 goals and 13 points in 30 games.

 

[NotOpie]

Again, I say to you the same thing I said last offseason when we jettisoned Skinner -- and also to paraphrase Don Waddell -- "replacing" a number of points is a worthless concept. All that matters is winning games.

I'm not suggesting addition-by-subtraction in the case of Williams/Ferland, only that the players set to replace them are very good at hockey and we will be fine, even if we score a couple fewer goals. This team will come together just like last season's team did. They will have strengths and weaknesses. And it will lead to different stats. To say we *need* to replace X number of points between two players is just silly.

It's about results.

I agree totally with the premise of this - in the end it is all about results. That said, you still have to score more goals than your opponent to win and that was the point I was making. Despite what Don said, history doesn't bear him out.

Over the last 11 years inclusive of our last 2 playoff runs we weren't always in the bottom 16 in goals for. However, when we made the playoffs we finished the regular season 16th (2008-09) and 10th (2018-19) in the league in goals for. Four other seasons we also finished in the top 16 in goals for, but accompanied those with bottom third of the league in goals against. In fact, the only time we made the playoffs is when we scored more goals as a team than we gave up.

While finishing in the top 16 in goals for, isn't causation for making the playoffs, there is a strong correlation (typically something around the top 13 or 14 top goal scoring teams make the dance). The same is similarly (though not exactly) true for goals against.

The one thing in common over our last two playoff seasons is that we got better than league average goaltending.

So, Kev, sure the team make up will be different and we will likely see success following a different path than last season. One cannot deny, however, that if we see a significant drop off in goals/points that path becomes much, much more difficult.

To say we're going to struggle because we lost X, completely ignores that we added Y.

Actually, the point I was making was that we did add "Y"...it's just that "Y" has to perform.

 

[Svechhammer]

Not sure "finely tuned v10 engines" is the best way to describe the new additions. The last NHL game Haula played he was stretchered off the ice with a nasty knee injury. Necas was a defensive disaster with the Canes last year and Rod wouldn't trust Fleury with more than 6-8 minutes a game. Bean and Priskie will be rookies. All of these guys will need a good stretch of games to get "finely tuned" and Necas/Fleury/Bean/Priskie might not even get to "NHL tuned" this year. Dzingle might be the closest to "well-tuned" but even he is coming off a disappointing stretch with Columbus where he scored 5 goals and 13 points in 30 games.

Haula is the Ferrari V10. Tends to break down, but its so awesome when it works, you're willing to overlook it.

Necas, Bean and Priskie are fine tuned V8s, but its the Corvette C8. Completely different than what we're used to, but give it a couple years and it'll revolutionize your garage.

Dzingel is a perfect V10, fine tuned and ready to roll. Its not his fault he was driven by a Boomer who didn't know how to shift into third gear last year.

 

[Cane mutiny]

I know I'm probably the outlier again, but I think I'd rather have Maenalanen back than adding another guy to the roster if Willy retires. I thought Saku was quite good in the playoffs and earned a real shot this year. They also need to let a couple of guys get their chance to prove themselves at the next level while they're still waiver exempt.

 

[geehaad]

Why am I reading "skill" and "Ferland" in the same sentence. Dude could put nice passes into the back of the net...that requires a non-zero amount of skill, sure, but certainly isn't an indicator of regretful amounts of it, either. And DeHaan? C'mon now.

Toughness, grit, leadership, experience? I'm hip. Stick with that as a the big loss from last year's roster, because it's the only solid argument...though intangibles are questionable assets to begin with. But Peters' roster is irrelevant to this year's roster...they showed zilch for years, so for whatever their skill, it's worth about as much as a warm bucket of hamster vomit. C'mon now.

Jesus H...late September hurry the f*** up!!!

 

[NotOpie]

Skill guys out:
Lindholm
Skinner
Hanifin
Williams (if he retires)
Ryan (sorry but I feel it is a stretch to call Ryan a "skill" guy but I'll include him for sake of argument)

Skill guys in"
Svechnikov
Dzingel
Haula
Necas
Niederreiter (seems to often be forgotten)

In aggregate, that appears to be a bit of a wash...

 

[Navin R Slavin]

When considering toughness, grit, and leadership lost I factor in DeHaan, as he was under rated in those aspects. Me saying that isn’t about Ferland directly, it’s the combined loss of Ferland, DeHaan and possibly Williams. Dzingel and Haula bring speed and hopefully some scoring but I don’t think anyone counts on them for the other aspects mentioned.

Losing Skinner, Lindy, Ryan, Hanifin, and maybe Williams while not keeping Ferland and to a far lesser extent DeHaan is a pretty dramatic loss in skill, regardless of how everyone wants to downplay each guy individually. They’re skill players and we replaced them generally with less skill players. Svech and Hamilton were really the only skill replacements there until we added Haula and Dzingel. Much of last season we were playing with an AHL level of skill up front. We hustled and hung in on every game, got great goaltending, got on a roll and rode it out.

The “old” team was short a couple of skill guys as it was, and despite the great work ethic we showed last year you’d think we need a blend of the new attitude infused with enough skill to make us dangerous consistently. I don’t know what to say if you don’t think we’ve given up skill over the last two off seasons (this season it’s just Ferland and maybe Williams), to get there you have to completely disregard good players we had with poor narratives about work ethic or whatever. The new team was great last year, we will probably carry through to this year with some good vibes, but our Achilles last year was offensive depth. The current roster could maybe use even more, depending on health and development.

I don't understand the hand wringing. This team is young, skilled, and improving.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I know I'm a broken record on this, but every time we inconvenience electrons to talk about what we added and what we lost, we simply cannot ignore that the two most important players for our franchise are still on the upswing of their careers. Lemme say it this way:

Out: Nagging injuries plagued Ferland and CDH, and nearing retirement Williams. Also out, 18-year-old, sheltered rookie Andrei Svechnikov and 21-year-old contract distracted Sebastian Aho.
In: Dzingel, Haula, Necas, and probably two of Bean, Fleury, and Priskie. Also in, a year stronger, more confident and experienced 19-year-old Svechnikov with the shackles off, and a 22-year-old laser-focused Sebastian Aho, determined to be worth his new big ticket.

If either or both of these guys take *the step*, I personally think we win our division.

I hope Williams does come back as he makes us better. I like that the team is looking at other options just in case, but would prefer to have him back.

Anybody else think this may have been a nudge at Williams? Not necessarily a "shot across the bow," but a reminder to him that other players are being held up by his delay, and appealing to his sense of honor. In other words, the team is thinking that if Williams hears he's holding up Brian Boyle, he'll put a rush on things.

 

[spockBokk]

Scratch that?

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

That's worded in such a strong way that it sounds more resentful than definitive. It makes me wonder if they did in fact reach out, but didn't like what they heard from Boyle's camp.

 

[Lempo]

AD's wife obviously isn't the only one.

 

[Lempo]

That's worded in such a strong way that it sounds more resentful than definitive. It makes me wonder if they did in fact reach out, but didn't like what they heard from Boyle's camp.

Or they want to strongly and definitely deny these fake news so that the guys they're actually targeting doesn't take an expection over it.

"Well have fun with Boyle when you're soooo in luUuv with him...!"

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I know I'm probably the outlier again, but I think I'd rather have Maenalanen back than adding another guy to the roster if Willy retires. I thought Saku was quite good in the playoffs and earned a real shot this year. They also need to let a couple of guys get their chance to prove themselves at the next level while they're still waiver exempt.

I think Saku's back no matter what. He's waivers exempt for one more season, so IMO he's going to be their main call-up guy and will be full-time next year. If Willy retires, I actually could see the Canes using their unexpected cap space and end up doing something really bold in the face of this RFA drama. Laine trade, maybe?

 

[Lempo]

I think Saku's back no matter what. He's waivers exempt for one more season, so IMO he's going to be their main call-up guy and will be full-time next year. If Willy retires, I actually could see the Canes using their unexpected cap space and end up doing something really bold in the face of this RFA drama. Laine trade, maybe?

There's the hiccup that having signed at 24 he's exempt for either 2 seasons or 60 NHL games, whichever comes first.

He has 34 NHL games already, the exemption is up after he plays his 26th in this season.