All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread Part 5: The Jerk Store Called - It's Time to Restock

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I'm just glad the answer isn't "half the roster" like it was 2-3 seasons ago (The Nordstrom/Kruger Era).

Hey now, Marcus Kruger had a nice bounceback season in Chicago this year, scoring 4 goals in 74 games.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Yeah I could understand it if it didn’t work out and he had a bad season but CDH was solid and was a real vocal guy about wanting to come be apart of the change. I know he got paid but it was a solid contract and not outside the norm when he signed it

I know I'm overreacting to this, but I can't imagine de Haan having any value to another team until he comes back and plays. The Islanders didn't make signing him last summer a priority due to his injuries, and now he's coming off another major shoulder surgery. Whatever kind of season he had, I'm sure teams are wary of his injury history and his value is quite low right now.

 

[FreshSeabass]

 

[Brock Anton]

.... and then one trade happens at the draft.

 

[Svechhammer]

.... and then one trade happens at the draft.

...with a swap of 2nd and 3rd round picks...

 

[My Special Purpose]

NHL: Maatta traded for Kahun, fifth rounder.

NBA: One of the five best players in the game and former No. 1 overall pick traded for three young stars and three first-round picks, including No. 4 overall this month.

NHL:

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Well, as much as Rod might like him, McGinn might be pricing himself out of a contract with TD/GMDW. Jurco doesn’t have the same skill set, but if he comes in cheaper, he may be given a look and they may let McGinn walk.

I'm also unsure of McGinn's fit moving forward. Necas has the full 3 year ELC, the full 7 years of team control and expansion exemption; there's no reason to hold a player with his talent back now. I have him penciled in as the 3rd line RW. Wallmark is likely the 3C in the absence of the acquisition of a better option. Waddell talked about adding a Top 9 forward on Friday, perhaps 2 if Williams retires. Foegele, Martinook and McGinn could work as a 4th line, but that's going to be very expensive at upwards of $5 mil total. If the Top 9 forward they're in the market for is a center, the issue of salary outlay of the Bottom 6 really doesn't change at a macro level. Move beyond next season and the Canes will see Foegele's ELC and Wallmark's bridge come to a close, increasing that burden. In addition, Roy, Gauthier and Saarela will lose their waiver exemption for 20-21.

A McGinn trade this week wouldn't shock me.

 

[Joe McGrath]

NHL: Maatta traded for Kahun, fifth rounder.

NBA: One of the five best players in the game and former No. 1 overall pick traded for three young stars and three first-round picks, including No. 4 overall this month.

NHL:

I’m trying to come up with an NHL parallel, but I can’t.

I guess it would be like trading McDavid for Marner-Nylander-Reily and 3 firsts, which would be absolutely bananalands.

In the NBA though you only have 10 guys that make any difference as opposed to 20.

 

[SlavinAway]

I will hate to see McGinn go but unfortunately I think it will need to happen. Kid plays with so much heart; I think he was the only player that truly gave 100% every time he was on the ice in the 17-18 season.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

The NHL/NBA comparisons are so unfair when it comes to that, because of the differences in the sport.

When you play 5 players at a time, and your starters play 3 quarters of the game, getting rid of a bunch of guys to get the highest end talent is fine. The Celtics proved a "superteam" can win by acquiring three All-Star level players in the same offseason. The Leafs have acquired Auston Matthews, John Tavares, and Mitch Marner in the last few years (not to mention Rielly and Nylander), and are still losing in the first round. Depth is critical, and your best players play 25 min at most.

This is a league where having Marner, Rielly, Nylander, and 3 1sts is actually better than having McDavid. LeBron's won titles with just one other star. We've seen what McDavid has done with just one other star.



Someone should do an analysis of the best "NBA" teams in the NHL. I may do this tonight out of boredom. Best 5 players from each team, and that's all they get. I bet it'd look a lot different than the final four NHL teams standing this year.

 

[Svechhammer]

I’m trying to come up with an NHL parallel, but I can’t.

I guess it would be like trading McDavid for Marner-Nylander-Reily and 3 firsts, which would be absolutely bananalands.

In the NBA though you only have 10 guys that make any difference as opposed to 20.

When you factor in the percent of the farm that LA gave to NO, it reminds me a lot of the Lindros haul. Will pay immediate dividends for LA, but it could have just set up NO to win multiple titles within 5-10 years time.

 

[Chrispy]

When you factor in the percent of the farm that LA gave to NO, it reminds me a lot of the Lindros haul. Will pay immediate dividends for LA, but it could have just set up NO to win multiple titles within 5-10 years time.

But before or after New Orleans relocates?

 

[GoldiFox]

Didn't see this last week:

Can former Blackhawks goalie Darling rebound from a season of injury and tragedy?

Or he could give Darling another chance.
One thing's for sure -- all options are on the table. And that includes buying Darling out of the last two years of his contract.
"People have asked me about it," Waddell said. "You talk about everything during the year, there's no doubt. … We have until the end of June before we have to make that decision.
"Let's see where we're at with the hockey club. I talked about it today with my coach and my owner, and (Darling is still) definitely an option."

Darling 3.0 still on the table. So that's fun.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I’m trying to come up with an NHL parallel, but I can’t.

I guess it would be like trading McDavid for Marner-Nylander-Reily and 3 firsts, which would be absolutely bananalands.

In the NBA though you only have 10 guys that make any difference as opposed to 20.

The equivalent is Gretzky to the Kings, and even then the Pelicans got more (and Davis is no Gretzky). Superstars are simply worth more in one league than the other.

 

[Svechhammer]

But before or after New Orleans relocates?

Supersonics about to win a lot of titles

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Didn't see this last week:

Can former Blackhawks goalie Darling rebound from a season of injury and tragedy?


Darling 3.0 still on the table. So that's fun.

This is just a thing a GM says IMO. He can't say "we're trying to decide whether to buy him out or if we are OK keeping his cap hit buried in Charlotte."

 

[My Special Purpose]

The NHL/NBA comparisons are so unfair when it comes to that, because of the differences in the sport.

When you play 5 players at a time, and your starters play 3 quarters of the game, getting rid of a bunch of guys to get the highest end talent is fine. The Celtics proved a "superteam" can win by acquiring three All-Star level players in the same offseason. The Leafs have acquired Auston Matthews, John Tavares, and Mitch Marner in the last few years (not to mention Rielly and Nylander), and are still losing in the first round. Depth is critical, and your best players play 25 min at most.

This is a league where having Marner, Rielly, Nylander, and 3 1sts is actually better than having McDavid. LeBron's won titles with just one other star. We've seen what McDavid has done with just one other star.



Someone should do an analysis of the best "NBA" teams in the NHL. I may do this tonight out of boredom. Best 5 players from each team, and that's all they get. I bet it'd look a lot different than the final four NHL teams standing this year.

First of all, there's no Marner in the Pelicans haul for Davis. Ball, Ingram and Hart are all nice, young players, but there may not be an All-Star among them. Secondly, we all value depth and how important it is to have at least 11 guys you can count on in the NHL (two lines of forwards and defensemen and a goalie).

We're commenting more on the guts and creativity of the deal, which NHL GMs are simply loathe to do. I mean, look at the conditions on the picks/swaps. Don't tell me NHL GMs can't do this.

 

[GoldiFox]

This is just a thing a GM says IMO. He can't say "we're trying to decide whether to buy him out or if we are OK keeping his cap hit buried in Charlotte."

... why can't he? Darling is clearly garbage even at the AHL level. No need for will-they, won't-they.

 

[tarheelhockey]

When you factor in the percent of the farm that LA gave to NO, it reminds me a lot of the Lindros haul. Will pay immediate dividends for LA, but it could have just set up NO to win multiple titles within 5-10 years time.

Or for them to draft a future superstar who demands a trade right back to the Lakers.

Woudn't even be the first time that's happened to that franchise.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

First of all, there's no Marner in the Pelicans haul for Davis. Ball, Ingram and Hart are all nice, young players, but there may not be an All-Star among them. Secondly, we all value depth and how important it is to have at least 11 guys you can count on in the NHL (two lines of forwards and defensemen and a goalie).

We're commenting more on the guts and creativity of the deal, which NHL GMs are simply loathe to do. I mean, look at the conditions on the picks/swaps. Don't tell me NHL GMs can't do this.

Totally aligned on all of that, then. My point is more general. If the NHL is the boring parity league, the NBA is more and more the boring lack of parity league. Half the NBA trade deadline is just moving nameless cap hits around to load up to try to buy free agents. They have the creativity part down, but they certainly have their own problems as well.

Part of the issue with being a vanilla GM comes from boring hockey culture. No news is generally good news. Moves can get you fired. Guys that don't do anything get more leash than guys that do something and fail. Because roster building in the NBA is all based on doing something (acquiring superstars) rather than not doing anything (drafting/developing), GMs know their job security is about making a splash, not drafting and developing.

Homegrown cores of the past 10 Stanley Cups:
Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Murray
Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrook/Crawford
Kopitar/Doughty/Brown/Quick
Bergeron/Marchand/Chara
Ovechkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov/Carlson/Holtby

and etc.

The good news on the "creative trade" front for the NHL is that the Conn Smythe winner was involved in a 6 player deal just last offseason. Copycat league, etc. This gels with what Doug Wilson just said, which I think is a very good sign that some of the creativity (offer sheets, bigger trades, etc.) that we are all hoping for may be growing:





EDIT: Chara's not homegrown, my apologies. Best FA signing in NHL history.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

... why can't he? Darling is clearly garbage even at the AHL level. No need for will-they, won't-they.

The dude's had a very rough two years culminating in his father dying unexpectedly. If the outcome ends up the same, no need to back over him with a truck.

 

[Svechhammer]

Or for them to draft a future superstar who demands a trade right back to the Lakers.

Woudn't even be the first time that's happened to that franchise.

 

[Chrispy]

Totally aligned on all of that, then. My point is more general. If the NHL is the boring parity league, the NBA is more and more the boring lack of parity league. Half the NBA trade deadline is just moving nameless cap hits around to load up to try to buy free agents. They have the creativity part down, but they certainly have their own problems as well.

The reason this is all going on is because no one believes you can win an NBA title without a superstar anymore. Players line up to try and combine superstars to make teams that might have a chance. The Celtics trio, the Heat, the Warriors, the Cavs, the Rockets, multiple aborted attempts by the Knicks, most franchises are trying to convince one superstar to join another to make their franchises work and just making little moves around the edges to compliment and/or make the salary cap work.

When the moves don't make as much sense in the short-term or on the court, they can be surprising. When you realize most moves are made to acquire a superstar or acquire space for another superstar, they are less surprising.

The next question is: Does the Toronto win this year dissuade that notion, or turn Leonard into a superstar who others will want to join with to win a title? I'm guessing the second is more likely than the first.

 

[Svechhammer]

The reason this is all going on is because no one believes you can win an NBA title without a superstar anymore. Players line up to try and combine superstars to make teams that might have a chance. The Celtics trio, the Heat, the Warriors, the Cavs, the Rockets, multiple aborted attempts by the Knicks, most franchises are trying to convince one superstar to join another to make their franchises work and just making little moves around the edges to compliment and/or make the salary cap work.

When the moves don't make as much sense in the short-term or on the court, they can be surprising. When you realize most moves are made to acquire a superstar or acquire space for another superstar, they are less surprising.

The next question is: Does the Toronto win this year dissuade that notion, or turn Leonard into a superstar who others will want to join with to win a title? I'm guessing the second is more likely than the first.

Whats to say Kawahi even wants to stay in Toronto? He could go literally anywhere and be the god of the city. You can't tell me the thought of doing that in New York for either the Knicks or Nets hasn't crossed his mind at least once. He brings a title to either of those teams, and he's instantly the A-1 alpha of the NBA, whereas in Toronto he's just the main character of the big story of the year.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

The reason this is all going on is because no one believes you can win an NBA title without a superstar anymore. Players line up to try and combine superstars to make teams that might have a chance. The Celtics trio, the Heat, the Warriors, the Cavs, the Rockets, multiple aborted attempts by the Knicks, most franchises are trying to convince one superstar to join another to make their franchises work and just making little moves around the edges to compliment and/or make the salary cap work.

When the moves don't make as much sense in the short-term or on the court, they can be surprising. When you realize most moves are made to acquire a superstar or acquire space for another superstar, they are less surprising.

The next question is: Does the Toronto win this year dissuade that notion, or turn Leonard into a superstar who others will want to join with to win a title? I'm guessing the second is more likely than the first.

I agree with everything you said except the question in the conclusion. Toronto was fine but not great, made a major move to acquire a superstar, and is now an NBA champion. This feeds the narrative IMO, doesn’t dissuade it. The thesis, “no one believes you can win an NBA title without a superstar anymore” is added to by Kawhi, not subtracted from.