All purpose draft-gripe thread

[Tim McCracken]

Jensen was ranked higher by every scouting agency out there and they all watched the same team that Jenner and Jensen was on. Jenner was not seen as a 1st round player. So this is a rather unfair comparison.

So you don't know who the scout was? Jenner was picked less than 10 spots after Jensen and was on the same team.

 

[Verviticus]

huh? the answer is all of the scouts, probably on every single team and most of the unemployed ones too

 

[thefeebster]

So you don't know who the scout was? Jenner was picked less than 10 spots after Jensen and was on the same team.

[MOD] You can look into it if you wish.

Jensen was unanimously ranked higher than Jenner by every scouting agency. If our scout was wrong, well just about every one else's scouts were wrong, even the ones polled by Bobby Mac. Every scouting agency's scouts were wrong. Yet, you want to single out our scout on this comparison? lol.

 

[Tim McCracken]

[MOD] You can look into it if you wish.

Jensen was unanimously ranked higher than Jenner by every scouting agency. If our scout was wrong, well just about every one else's scouts were wrong, even the ones polled by Bobby Mac. Every scouting agency's scouts were wrong. Yet, you want to single out our scout on this comparison? lol.

I'm not questioning that and I don't track the scouting staff as closely as others here. Looks like you don't either.

 

[biturbo19]

It's already a win. Getting NHL games from that spot is rare especially for this franchise.

Yeah. It's already well above par for the course with this franchise.

Just looking like a question of how big a win it is.


If Hutton can become the top-4D he looks like he could be, that'd do a heck of a lot to help ease the sting of missing Severson for Mallet.

I mean we got him in the 5th round, and right now...he's looking like a 1st round pick type progression. If you blow a 2nd, but manage to pull an impact player out of the 5th round...on balance, that's not that bad. Obviously hitting that 5th round AND not blowing the 2nd round pick would be a lot better , and is the sort of thing this team needs to start doing more consistently if we're going to really get ahead, especially in a "rebuild" phase.

 

[Jyrki21]

It's looked pretty bad basically from the start.

That whole strategy of "we'll draft older players so they're closer to contributing", in general was kind of a pretty bad idea.

My understanding was Gillis was just following the Billy Beane model (take only college players, not high schoolers because you have a better idea of how they'll pan out in the future). Of course the critical difference is that taking older junior players is kind of like drafting college ballplayers who play against high schoolers some of the time.

 

[vanuck]

Mallet over damon severson is looking pretty bad right now.

It looked pretty bad back then as well!

Our top 4 for the future could have been built around:

Edler-Tanev
Hutton-Severson

Yeah Mallet over Severson was universally deemed as bad here from the moment it was made. A pairing of Hutton-Severson would look pretty damn good right about now, though to be fair I'm not sure they would have gotten both considering their overager strategy for that 2012 draft, though it's nice to think about the possibility of having gone BPA with that 2nd round pick and then also striking gold in the 5th round on an overager.

 

[arttk]

Yeah Mallet over Severson was universally deemed as bad here from the moment it was made. A pairing of Hutton-Severson would look pretty damn good right about now, though to be fair I'm not sure they would have gotten both considering their overager strategy for that 2012 draft, though it's nice to think about the possibility of having gone BPA with that 2nd round pick and then also striking gold in the 5th round on an overager.

There is a really damn good reason why the Q scouts got put in the icebox afterwards.

 

[arsmaster*]

The hilarity of some of the hindsight on Jensen vs Jenner is Jensen is the skill guy who can skate vs the two way guy with heavy boots. The age old HFCanucks debate.

I was happy with Jensen but I had paid way more attention to Jenner as Jensen was the more highly ranked player that I didn't bother to research because I expected to pick 30th

 

[Verviticus]

severson would be in the ahl right now if we had him. ya he'd look great in two years when we get a new gm but for now it would be him or hutton

 

[vanuck]

There is a really damn good reason why the Q scouts got put in the icebox afterwards.

Yeah we seem to have gotten almost nothing from that league in a long long time. Ironically the 2 players I wanted with our two 1st round picks in 2014 were from the Q (Ehlers and Barbashev). Though I wonder if we still would've ignored the Q nonetheless if Gillis and Crawford were running that draft. I've actually forgotten when we let go of our scouts from that region.

 

[Tiranis]

The hilarity of some of the hindsight on Jensen vs Jenner is Jensen is the skill guy who can skate vs the two way guy with heavy boots. The age old HFCanucks debate.

I was happy with Jensen but I had paid way more attention to Jenner as Jensen was the more highly ranked player that I didn't bother to research because I expected to pick 30th

My guy was Jaskin but I liked what I saw from Jensen. Jaskin doesn't seem to be able to provide high-end offensive upside but plays pretty excellent puck possession hockey (one of the best on the Blues in that regard).

---

Since this is the draft gripe thread, and I didn't post much on last year's draft, can't say I love the Zhukenov pick. Timashov and Kase were both still on the board. (Also, Kase's older brother was picked by the Ducks after Stewart. Looking like a much better pick right now.)

 

[arsmaster*]

My guy was Jaskin but I liked what I saw from Jensen. Jaskin doesn't seem to be able to provide high-end offensive upside but plays pretty excellent puck possession hockey (one of the best on the Blues in that regard).

---

Since this is the draft gripe thread, and I didn't post much on last year's draft, can't say I love the Zhukenov pick. Timashov and Kase were both still on the board. (Also, Kase's older brother was picked by the Ducks after Stewart. Looking like a much better pick right now.)

I liked Jaskin too, and I definitely remember you trumpeting him a bit. I recall liking Jenner but having concerns over his foot speed.

I don't like the Zhukenov pick much either, it's the right type of pick, but the Kase kid looks better than his big brother too, and he was a much better choice than big stew.

 

[Josepho]

Why is the Virtanen pick always associated with Nylander/Ehlers?

Personally, I'm more ticked about not taking Haydn Fleury.

 

[thefeebster]

My guy was Jaskin but I liked what I saw from Jensen. Jaskin doesn't seem to be able to provide high-end offensive upside but plays pretty excellent puck possession hockey (one of the best on the Blues in that regard).

---

Since this is the draft gripe thread, and I didn't post much on last year's draft, can't say I love the Zhukenov pick. Timashov and Kase were both still on the board. (Also, Kase's older brother was picked by the Ducks after Stewart. Looking like a much better pick right now.)

I definitely remember your love for Jaskin, you made me really interested in him. STL with another win. I tried trading for him in two of my fantasy pools this summer, no one was giving him up .

I think i have more of an issue with Brisebois. Not because i dislike him or anything, he has some good tools. But i really liked Keegan Kolesar and he is ripping it up now. He just looks like a pro player to me.

I was hoping we could pick up both of the Kase brothers. We actually could have with relative ease! I think I would have tried to convince David to play in the CHL though. He would shine there, IMO.

Why is the Virtanen pick always associated with Nylander/Ehlers?

That's easy. There were 9 threads of the 6th overall discussion. That was exclusive of the NHL draft threads. Needless to say, it was hotly debated which player we should pick. Many of the threads had polls and these were the easy front runners. Also, each player had their group of hf posters arguing which one was best. The only other player really in the conversation was Ritchie.

Personally, I'm more ticked about not taking Haydn Fleury.

I can't say Fleury gives me any regret. Probably the least amount of regret in the top 15, besides Perlini. I didn't have Fleury as the top ranked D (Sanheim was) and if forced to put together a re-draft list, I would move him closer to the 2nd personally.

 

[DL44]

severson would be in the ahl right now if we had him. ya he'd look great in two years when we get a new gm but for now it would be him or hutton

I don't think so... Severson was NHL ready last yr... Which would of meant less of Stanton, Weber.. Or no need to trade for Clendening.

If anything, Severson here would of likely effected resigning of Weber, or signing Bartkowsky. Not stopping Hutton from bulling his way on the team.

Either way... The result would of been the same... Corrado would of been waived.

 

[Phenomenon13]

I don't think so... Severson was NHL ready last yr... Which would of meant less of Stanton, Weber.. Or no need to trade for Clendening.

If anything, Severson here would of likely effected resigning of Weber, or signing Bartkowsky. Not stopping Hutton from bulling his way on the team.

Either way... The result would of been the same... Corrado would of been waived.

Severson might even have prevented the resigning of Sbisa or at the very least lowered the price tag.

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Severson
Sibsa-Bieksa
Weber

That's kind of what it would look like last year.

 

[biturbo19]

My guy was Jaskin but I liked what I saw from Jensen. Jaskin doesn't seem to be able to provide high-end offensive upside but plays pretty excellent puck possession hockey (one of the best on the Blues in that regard).

---

Since this is the draft gripe thread, and I didn't post much on last year's draft, can't say I love the Zhukenov pick. Timashov and Kase were both still on the board. (Also, Kase's older brother was picked by the Ducks after Stewart. Looking like a much better pick right now.)

I recall your Jaskin boosting as well. Definitely made me take some interest there at the time. Would have been a solid pick there.

The guy i really liked there and thought would probably be available was Khokhlachev...jury still out on that one, whether he can translate what he's done at the AHL level to the NHL. But i think he's looking a darn sight more likely to do so than Jensen at this point. I'd still make that pick over Jensen today, easily.


That said, i can't really play the hindsight card there too hard either way. Didn't expect Jensen to be available for us, and when he was...i was plenty happy with that pick at the time. Still think it was a very reasonable pick...just a shame he never really progressed as hoped. There were a lot of projectable things to like there...just seems the attitude wasn't quite so projectable, more than anything.

It is a really interesting case, the way the "low upside" guy in Jenner with some skating issues ended up the much better pick in hindsight. Kind of exemplifies the the delicate balance in "swing for the fences" vs "make sure you get on base". Even though at the time, with his size and skillset, Jensen didn't seem like a massively "risky" pick at that point of the draft at all.

 

[Tiranis]

That said, i can't really play the hindsight card there too hard either way. Didn't expect Jensen to be available for us, and when he was...i was plenty happy with that pick at the time. Still think it was a very reasonable pick...just a shame he never really progressed as hoped. There were a lot of projectable things to like there...just seems the attitude wasn't quite so projectable, more than anything.

I don't even think it's attitude, it's not like he has bad work ethic or personal issues of any kind. I mean, there's some selfishness in his play, etc. but there are countless players who have been successful with those qualities. It seems to me that he just topped out earlier than other players.

 

[racerjoe]

I don't even know if anything wrong with Jensen. I don't even think it's attitude, it's not like he has bad work ethic or personal issues of any kind. It seems to me that he just topped out earlier than other players.

I kind of think its confidence. He has been such a streaky player, and in such a slump I can't imagine he feels positive about his game. But that is a total guess on the mental side of his game that we can't be sure of.

 

[biturbo19]

I don't even think it's attitude, it's not like he has bad work ethic or personal issues of any kind. I mean, there's some selfishness in his play, etc. but there are countless players who have been successful with those qualities. It seems to me that he just topped out earlier than other players.

I think there have been some artifacts in his development which indicate his attitude hasn't been one of any real flexibility. And i think that's an issue. He still seems to want to be the same player he was in Jrs basically, even though it clearly isn't working for him here.

I kind of think its confidence. He has been such a streaky player, and in such a slump I can't imagine he feels positive about his game. But that is a total guess on the mental side of his game that we can't be sure of.

That could be a part of it too. He'd hardly be the first streaky "scorer" to rest heavily on confidence like that. But ultimately, he hasn't really found enough consistency to his confidence as a scorer at the AHL level...much less the NHL level.

 

[F A N]

I don't even think it's attitude, it's not like he has bad work ethic or personal issues of any kind. I mean, there's some selfishness in his play, etc. but there are countless players who have been successful with those qualities. It seems to me that he just topped out earlier than other players.

There were questions over his intensity levels and physical play. The tools are there. The work ethic is not. I don't think his work ethic is "bad" per se but he certainly doesn't work hard the way Jenner does.

[MOD] You can look into it if you wish.
Jensen was unanimously ranked higher than Jenner by every scouting agency. If our scout was wrong, well just about every one else's scouts were wrong, even the ones polled by Bobby Mac. Every scouting agency's scouts were wrong. Yet, you want to single out our scout on this comparison? lol.

It is true that Jensen was mostly ranked ahead of Jenner. But if you look into it, Jenner's flaws mainly had to do with his skating which he improved and Jensen's weakness of determination and physical play have not been corrected. It's the nature of the draft. Scouts felt Jenner's skating would hold him back and be nothing more than a 3rd line C and felt Jensen had all the tools to be a top 6 player. Fast forward a couple of years and Jenner's skating has improved to the point he could be an elite 3rd liner while Jensen can't even produce offensively in the AHL on a consistent basis. Teams draft players on potential mostly and over emphasize certain flaws.

 

[thefeebster]

I don't even think it's attitude, it's not like he has bad work ethic or personal issues of any kind. I mean, there's some selfishness in his play, etc. but there are countless players who have been successful with those qualities. It seems to me that he just topped out earlier than other players.

I think there were signs, along the way post draft. First was a hf poster who claimed to have insider knowledge on the Generals bench saying that he was disliked in the locker room and was very entitled, this person also said the source were glad when he left. I brushed this off as speculation, but i do wonder now if there was some truth to it. Next was his frequent benchings by the AIK coach, I believe, it was rumoured to be a lack of commitment defensively or playing a team game. I don't remember but he may have called out Jensen in an article too. But many glossed over this with his surprising goal scoring and excellent but short stint in the AHL that season. His AIK teammate Janmark is looking like a much better player. I wonder if he was on our radar at all.

There were questions over his intensity levels and physical play. The tools are there. The work ethic is not. I don't think his work ethic is "bad" per se but he certainly doesn't work hard the way Jenner does.

It is true that Jensen was mostly ranked ahead of Jenner. But if you look into it, Jenner's flaws mainly had to do with his skating which he improved and Jensen's weakness of determination and physical play have not been corrected. It's the nature of the draft. Scouts felt Jenner's skating would hold him back and be nothing more than a 3rd line C and felt Jensen had all the tools to be a top 6 player. Fast forward a couple of years and Jenner's skating has improved to the point he could be an elite 3rd liner while Jensen can't even produce offensively in the AHL on a consistent basis. Teams draft players on potential mostly and over emphasize certain flaws.

I wasn't really disputing why Jensen hasn't succeed or why Jenner has. The comment quoted tried to lay blame on our OHL scout for missing Jenner when it was widely accepted that Jensen was the higher ranked player.

The situation you've outlined has long been debated here. High potential skill vs two way player.

 

[Tiranis]

There were questions over his intensity levels and physical play. The tools are there. The work ethic is not. I don't think his work ethic is "bad" per se but he certainly doesn't work hard the way Jenner does.

I think there were signs, along the way post draft. First was a hf poster who claimed to have insider knowledge on the Generals bench saying that he was disliked in the locker room and was very entitled, this person also said the source were glad when he left. I brushed this off as speculation, but i do wonder now if there was some truth to it. Next was his frequent benchings by the AIK coach, I believe, it was rumoured to be a lack of commitment defensively or playing a team game. I don't remember but he may have called out Jensen in an article too. But many glossed over this with his surprising goal scoring and excellent but short stint in the AHL that season. His AIK teammate Janmark is looking like a much better player. I wonder if he was on our radar at all.

Yeah but the NHL is littered with players who overcome those qualities. I'm not claiming he's a perfect NHLer but that there's nothing bad enough there to stall his progress to the level that it has. He's barely a passable AHL player right now.

I still think the biggest problem is that he just hasn't progressed in terms of his actual hockey skills.

 

[Verviticus]

im very unhappy that the canucks drafted virtanen instead of the guys i wanted. just an update y'all