Confirmed with Link: All-Purpose Coyotes Arena Talk: [Update] Land Auction Cancelled, Meruelo waiving ownership rights.

[Coyotedroppings]

You are right. I was busy at work and didn't have time to proof-read. I should have said state. I admit to not putting my thoughts in to the words that were typed correctly and that I messed up.


You show us what taxes will be levied, collected, and by whom. I didn't post that the city would get zilch. I then went on to ask you to show me it. To which, and to no surprise, you still haven't.

You’ve been provided two sources now, I don’t know how else to help you.

 

[RemoAZ]

It’s an op-ed and it’s written by an unhinged theater kid.

Sure but I think the public's appetite for using taxpayer funds to build a rich person's sports arena is thin at best and not just in Arizona. Their team doesn't even have a name yet and something like this comes out. I'd bet it's the first of many. Will it matter? I guess time will tell or maybe they just haven't shaken off the residual stink of the old organization yet.

You’ve been provided two sources now, I don’t know how else to help you.

How about a pie chart? Bar graph?

 

[TheLegend]

This article is from last month but it poses an interesting view of how TED went down and how the latest city election ended up in favor of more business growth.

Tempe voters distrusted the Arizona Coyotes more than supporters on the council. Why?

Tempe voters rejected the Coyotes proposal last May, but chose all pro-development options this March. Here's why and what it means for Tempe.

www.azcentral.com

Tempe1st thought it had gained a lot of political clout after getting the TED proposal voted down.

So this past election they targeted two sitting council members and attempted to replace them with their own anti-business growth candidates. Along with defeating a new proposal called "Tempe 2050" which outlined future growth for Tempe which included lots of business growth.

They tried the same aggressive tactics they used against TED...... and got their asses handed to them this time. The biggest difference?? According to them "we got outspent"....(ie: they didn't have all the big funding from the outside interests.).

 

[Edenjung]

Sure but I think the public's appetite for using taxpayer funds to build a rich person's sports arena is thin at best and not just in Arizona. Their team doesn't even have a name yet and something like this comes out. I'd bet it's the first of many. Will it matter? I guess time will tell or maybe they just haven't shaken off the residual stink of the old organization yet.

Its not the organization.
Its the "public money for private fun-project" that people are sick of in a lot of cities.
And rightfully so. The public should not pay for stuff like that.
A city could give a credit or other stuff that has to be repaid with interest. Maybe invest in the project.
But not provide a handout.
And yes owners will then threat to leave, if they don't get what they want. But this option is only possible because the cities can be played against each other. If they were all saying "Nope pay for it yourself" then this situation would not be like it is today.

Of course Utah and SLC will pay that is clear as day. Even if there is a movement against the spending.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It’s an op-ed and it’s written by an unhinged theater kid.

It's a voice from the general public, and whatever shade we throw at it, we have to remember that it's voices like this one that nuked the Tempe deal... which means they can't be dismissed.

 

[rt]

It's a voice from the general public, and whatever shade we throw at it, we have to remember that it's voices like this one that nuked the Tempe deal... which means they can't be dismissed.

Did you read it?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Did you read it?

Yes. It's amateurish, it's trying too hard to be clever, it's attempting to be funny, and it accomplishes neither goal. The byline is for a self-proclaimed "comedian" which, in general terms, is a bad sign, but in Salt Lake City it's even worse.

...but therein lies the rub. These are the kind of people who end up being the squeaky wheel, not the more normal and less annoying type. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the majority of Tempe voters would have been fine with TED. They aren't the ones who showed up to vote.

So Ryan Smith has got to get out in front of this mewling choad and figure out a way to make his "argument" look as lame as the author made it sound, because as poorly crafted and self-congratulatory as it was phrased, it hit on a pretty common general feeling about billionaires asking for and demanding public money. And as we all know, people in general are willing to forgive a whole f***-ton of a lot of expressed stupidity if there is a kernel of agreement with their personal principles hidden in it.

 

[Desert Ice 11]

Meanwhile in Salt Lake City….. dissent is upon us.

Opinion: If Ryan Smith can’t afford his own entertainment district, I have no choice but to assume he is poor

“We’re all facing challenges in these hard economic times, Ryan, whether that means figuring out where our next rent check is coming from or how to use public money to create an enormous new income stream that will fundamentally change downtown SLC.”

www.sltrib.com

Same team different city.

 

[rt]

Yes. It's amateurish, it's trying too hard to be clever, it's attempting to be funny, and it accomplishes neither goal. The byline is for a self-proclaimed "comedian" which, in general terms, is a bad sign, but in Salt Lake City it's even worse.

...but therein lies the rub. These are the kind of people who end up being the squeaky wheel, not the more normal and less annoying type. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the majority of Tempe voters would have been fine with TED. They aren't the ones who showed up to vote.

So Ryan Smith has got to get out in front of this mewling choad and figure out a way to make his "argument" look as lame as the author made it sound, because as poorly crafted and self-congratulatory as it was phrased, it hit on a pretty common general feeling about billionaires asking for and demanding public money. And as we all know, people in general are willing to forgive a whole f***-ton of a lot of expressed stupidity if there is a kernel of agreement with their personal principles hidden in it.

Well said. But where’s the news? Don’t we already know that people don’t like publicly funded arena projects for billionaires?

I’ll say this, as an outsider whose sales tax money isn’t on the line, the mission and vision that Ryan Smith presented for the downtown revitalization project was pretty compelling.

Downtowns across the nation have commonly become horror shows. This was basically his claim and as someone who travels to downtowns for work, I tend to agree. I see a lot of sensationalism in the media. And in the case of the downtown hellscape narrative, I tend to agree with the media portrayal a bit more. If that’s the boat SLC is in, I imagine if I was a local I’d have my listening ears on, at the very least.

But I’m also somewhat of a civic pride nerd. If they’re going to take my hard earned money from me, I’m someone who feels a bit better if I can see it working. If you drive through my neighborhood most Sunday mornings you’re likely to see my two boys and I with buckets and grabbers picking up litter. A couple of years ago in a bizarre glitch in the matrix I found myself (as nothing more than a loudly vocal concerned citizen) negotiating with the mayor of Gilbert in a 1:1 meeting about a proposed rezoning issue. I’ve never once in my life voted for a president but I’ve voted on plenty of local propositions and council elections.

All that said, at the end of the day, he’s just an Uber wealthy tech bro who wants a handout from hardworking tax payers to build an arena district he can make a ton of money from. I get that. It seems to me the government is going to help themselves to our money regardless. And more and more of it as we go along. Sometimes it’s nice to actually get something back for it.

Is this the right “something” versus helping poor kids or endangered moms or homeless people, etc. Probably not. But sometimes I feel like I’ll take what I can get. Especially if the alternative is just the money being squandered on some other rich guys scheme that’s less compelling.

I remember earlier this year a lady stopped my kids and I while we were cleaning up litter in the neighborhood. She asked if we were being paid (lol) I said “no, we just live here”. She thanked us but then informed us that Phoenix has a ton of litter and asked if we’d ever thought about cleaning up a poor neighborhood in Phoenix and I said “no, we just live here”. Sometimes politics is blinding. Sometimes it’s better to just have nicer stuff. And to take what you can get when the rare opportunity arises that you can actually get something.

 

[Desert Ice 11]

It's a voice from the general public, and whatever shade we throw at it, we have to remember that it's voices like this one that nuked the Tempe deal... which means they can't be dismissed.

It echoes what you see on social media, check out the Salt Lake City Tribune facebook page. You will see articles that talk about public funds for Smith to build the entertainment district and if you go to the comment section there are plenty of people against it.

Ryan Smith better get what he needs done while Spencer Cox is in office, I have a feeling that the window of government support is closing.

 

[rt]

It echoes what you see on social media, check out the Salt Lake City Tribune facebook page. You will see articles that talk about public funds for Smith to build the entertainment district and if you go to the comment section there are plenty of people against it.

Ryan Smith better get what he needs done while Spencer Cox is in office, I have a feeling that the window of government support is closing.

Kinda crazy that it was ever open. I feel like that got slammed shut here like 20 years ago after the baseball stadium stick-up. And across the country, too. Culminating in KC telling the Chiefs to take a hike. Which is as clear an example of the sentiment as I can imagine.

 

[Desert Ice 11]

Kinda crazy that it was ever open. I feel like that got slammed shut here like 20 years ago after the baseball stadium stick-up. And across the country, too. Culminating in KC telling the Chiefs to take a hike. Which is as clear an example of the sentiment as I can imagine.

Good points there. I am sure there was probably some behind the scene conversations between Ryan Smith and the local government.

 

[Edenjung]

Good points there. I am sure there was probably some behind the scene conversations between Ryan Smith and the local government.

Na the leader of the church came by, told the government "Deus Io Vult" and they bend the knee immediatly, said "yes" and "amen" and that was that.

Wait thats the catholic church.... instead of deus io vult, he said "God wants this, he sent a message in my oat meal this morning" or something similar.

 

[Bondurant]

This article is from last month but it poses an interesting view of how TED went down and how the latest city election ended up in favor of more business growth.

Tempe voters distrusted the Arizona Coyotes more than supporters on the council. Why?

Tempe voters rejected the Coyotes proposal last May, but chose all pro-development options this March. Here's why and what it means for Tempe.

www.azcentral.com

Tempe1st thought it had gained a lot of political clout after getting the TED proposal voted down.

So this past election they targeted two sitting council members and attempted to replace them with their own anti-business growth candidates. Along with defeating a new proposal called "Tempe 2050" which outlined future growth for Tempe which included lots of business growth.

They tried the same aggressive tactics they used against TED...... and got their asses handed to them this time. The biggest difference?? According to them "we got outspent"....(ie: they didn't have all the big funding from the outside interests.).

Tempe1st must have their own Meruelo.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Well said. But where’s the news? Don’t we already know that people don’t like publicly funded arena projects for billionaires?

I’ll say this, as an outsider whose sales tax money isn’t on the line, the mission and vision that Ryan Smith presented for the downtown revitalization project was pretty compelling.

Downtowns across the nation have commonly become horror shows. This was basically his claim and as someone who travels to downtowns for work, I tend to agree. I see a lot of sensationalism in the media. And in the case of the downtown hellscape narrative, I tend to agree with the media portrayal a bit more. If that’s the boat SLC is in, I imagine if I was a local I’d have my listening ears on, at the very least.

But I’m also somewhat of a civic pride nerd. If they’re going to take my hard earned money from me, I’m someone who feels a bit better if I can see it working. If you drive through my neighborhood most Sunday mornings you’re likely to see my two boys and I with buckets and grabbers picking up litter. A couple of years ago in a bizarre glitch in the matrix I found myself (as nothing more than a loudly vocal concerned citizen) negotiating with the mayor of Gilbert in a 1:1 meeting about a proposed rezoning issue. I’ve never once in my life voted for a president but I’ve voted on plenty of local propositions and council elections.

All that said, at the end of the day, he’s just an Uber wealthy tech bro who wants a handout from hardworking tax payers to build an arena district he can make a ton of money from. I get that. It seems to me the government is going to help themselves to our money regardless. And more and more of it as we go along. Sometimes it’s nice to actually get something back for it.

Is this the right “something” versus helping poor kids or endangered moms or homeless people, etc. Probably not. But sometimes I feel like I’ll take what I can get. Especially if the alternative is just the money being squandered on some other rich guys scheme that’s less compelling.

I remember earlier this year a lady stopped my kids and I while we were cleaning up litter in the neighborhood. She asked if we were being paid (lol) I said “no, we just live here”. She thanked us but then informed us that Phoenix has a ton of litter and asked if we’d ever thought about cleaning up a poor neighborhood in Phoenix and I said “no, we just live here”. Sometimes politics is blinding. Sometimes it’s better to just have nicer stuff. And to take what you can get when the rare opportunity arises that you can actually get something.

Here's the complicating factor in SLC, though. A few years ago, the Mormon Church basically bought most of downtown and rebuilt it into a combination LDS vistors' center and commercial mall space. They used tithing money to do it all. For those uninitiated in how the LDS church makes its money from its members (outside of the various billion-dollar real estate, farming, and multimedia empires it runs), there are two basic sources - tithing, which is a mandatory 10% pre-tax donation from every single dollar a Mormon makes in any capacity, and "fast offerings," which is money members voluntarily set aside when they perform a fast (the idea being that you donate the money you would have spent on your food to the church to help the poor). In theory, neither tithing nor fast offering money should have been used for the church's commercial interests - the members are told and it is understood by them that these donations are meant to help the poor and the needy and to support church membership and meetinghouse upkeep, etc. (although now the church doesn't even pay for janitorial service for local meetinghouses and requires the members to do it for free as "celestial service").

So when the church announced this massive commercial purchase and the plans for creating a closed walking-traffic high-end shopping and commercial district in a section of downtown that used to be open to car traffic using member-donated money, it really rankled the population in general (and the membership in particular - I recall a whole lot of damage control and spin doctoring from the pulpit about how this commercial district would bring more souls to God and bullshit of that nature). It generated a lot of bad blood in the city toward entities like the Mormons exploiting their tax-exempt status, their membership-donated millions, and their absolute failure to put their plans to any sort of vote or even a survey.

Now here comes Ryan Smith promising a similar "transformative" commercial project, only now instead of just fleecing the poor Mormon folks, he's trying to get everyone's tax money to build his revenue generator. I guarandamntee you that he's leveraging every LDS resource he can in his pursuit of this project - I have no way of knowing for sure, but my thinking is that he might even use his connections to work with the same lobbyists that got the LDS downtown project greenlit. So he has a big advantage over a guy like Alex Meruelo because of the incestuous nature of government and religion in Utah. But, all that said, the general consensus among the populace is mostly, "Not again..." And complicating things further is that nearly $2 billion of public tax money sitting around waiting to be spent on sports facilities that nobody bothered to get permission from taxpayers to collect.

The honeymoon period helped wallpaper over these issues, but Smith and SEG need to work their asses off to get ahead of this pronto now that the wallpaper is starting to peel off.

 

[rt]

I don’t know enough about the area to know how bad it is. Of all the dumb things tax dollars are wasted on, revitalizing a downtown area isn’t the worst. But I don’t really know what the situation is there.

 

[Edenjung]

@The Feckless Puck
You sure that they are not the catholic church?
Because that sounds similar to them.
Only thing missing are the golden bathtubs

Vatican Not Amused by the 'Bling Bishop' and His $20,000 Bathtub

Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst was suspended by the Vatican on Wednesday for, among other things, spending $20,000 on his bathtub.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[The Feckless Puck]

@The Feckless Puck
You sure that they are not the catholic church?
Because that sounds similar to them.
Only thing missing are the golden bathtubs

Vatican Not Amused by the 'Bling Bishop' and His $20,000 Bathtub

Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst was suspended by the Vatican on Wednesday for, among other things, spending $20,000 on his bathtub.

www.theatlantic.com

The Catholics have a less ridiculous backstory and several hundred years' worth of persistence over the Mormons. But the Mormons have almost as much financial resources as the Catholics with a fraction of the global membership.

 

[finkelsteinberg]

You’ve been provided two sources now, I don’t know how else to help you.

Read both sources and none of them say there is 0 sales tax.

The ABC News source about the proposal changes to the district tax article is the only one I see to mention sales tax. Which states "These special taxing districts are exempt from state and local income and property taxes, and they can charge patrons a sales tax – revenue that can be used to help pay for the development." Which, in previous podcasts/articles I have listened to/read, were in addition to the already established state and city rates. For example, 2.3% city rate goes up to 3.3% in that district.

 

[Jakey53]

I see why I've never seen eye to eye with Jakey.. I'm born and raised in the much better Alberta City of Calgary. lol

Was born and raised in the "Hat."

 

[Sinurgy]

The Catholics have a less ridiculous backstory and several hundred years' worth of persistence over the Mormons. But the Mormons have almost as much financial resources as the Catholics with a fraction of the global membership.

They're a money making machine! Didn't they come under fire at one point for being huge shareholders in companies that, in theory, are not aligned with their doctrine? I don't remember the specific examples and I don't think it was super egregious but still a definitely conflict of interest. Something like constantly preaching to the congregation about the dangers of caffeine and telling them to avoid it all while having a ton of shares in Pepsi Co. or something like that. I have a vague recollection of them selling off a bunch of stock once enough public pressure mounted but I could be mistaken.

 

[TheLegend]

Read both sources and none of them say there is 0 sales tax.

The ABC News source about the proposal changes to the district tax article is the only one I see to mention sales tax. Which states "These special taxing districts are exempt from state and local income and property taxes, and they can charge patrons a sales tax – revenue that can be used to help pay for the development." Which, in previous podcasts/articles I have listened to/read, were in addition to the already established state and city rates. For example, 2.3% city rate goes up to 3.3% in that district.

Why read about the media’s interpretation when the current law and bill to amend it itself is available to the public??

I’ve posted links on here to both in BoH and to the bill itself just above.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Read both sources and none of them say there is 0 sales tax.

The ABC News source about the proposal changes to the district tax article is the only one I see to mention sales tax. Which states "These special taxing districts are exempt from state and local income and property taxes, and they can charge patrons a sales tax – revenue that can be used to help pay for the development." Which, in previous podcasts/articles I have listened to/read, were in addition to the already established state and city rates. For example, 2.3% city rate goes up to 3.3% in that district.

You have it nailed, with the exception of the "in addition to" part and they can levy up to 9%. I'm not going to copy and paste the all the of avenues I utilized to get there for you. Happy researching!

Edit: Hint - look into article xiii sect 7 of the constitution and don't come back here asking me how it applies because I have faith you can find out on your own.

I really am far too generous.

 

[Bondurant]

Here's the complicating factor in SLC, though. A few years ago, the Mormon Church basically bought most of downtown and rebuilt it into a combination LDS vistors' center and commercial mall space. They used tithing money to do it all. For those uninitiated in how the LDS church makes its money from its members (outside of the various billion-dollar real estate, farming, and multimedia empires it runs), there are two basic sources - tithing, which is a mandatory 10% pre-tax donation from every single dollar a Mormon makes in any capacity, and "fast offerings," which is money members voluntarily set aside when they perform a fast (the idea being that you donate the money you would have spent on your food to the church to help the poor). In theory, neither tithing nor fast offering money should have been used for the church's commercial interests - the members are told and it is understood by them that these donations are meant to help the poor and the needy and to support church membership and meetinghouse upkeep, etc. (although now the church doesn't even pay for janitorial service for local meetinghouses and requires the members to do it for free as "celestial service").

So when the church announced this massive commercial purchase and the plans for creating a closed walking-traffic high-end shopping and commercial district in a section of downtown that used to be open to car traffic using member-donated money, it really rankled the population in general (and the membership in particular - I recall a whole lot of damage control and spin doctoring from the pulpit about how this commercial district would bring more souls to God and bullshit of that nature). It generated a lot of bad blood in the city toward entities like the Mormons exploiting their tax-exempt status, their membership-donated millions, and their absolute failure to put their plans to any sort of vote or even a survey.

Now here comes Ryan Smith promising a similar "transformative" commercial project, only now instead of just fleecing the poor Mormon folks, he's trying to get everyone's tax money to build his revenue generator. I guarandamntee you that he's leveraging every LDS resource he can in his pursuit of this project - I have no way of knowing for sure, but my thinking is that he might even use his connections to work with the same lobbyists that got the LDS downtown project greenlit. So he has a big advantage over a guy like Alex Meruelo because of the incestuous nature of government and religion in Utah. But, all that said, the general consensus among the populace is mostly, "Not again..." And complicating things further is that nearly $2 billion of public tax money sitting around waiting to be spent on sports facilities that nobody bothered to get permission from taxpayers to collect.

The honeymoon period helped wallpaper over these issues, but Smith and SEG need to work their asses off to get ahead of this pronto now that the wallpaper is starting to peel off.

Tin foil hat time... they're coming back to AZ in 5 years. Canuckland melts down and HF implodes and Gary Bettman Arena is going to rock and we can ride rollercoasters after the game.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

They're a money making machine! Didn't they come under fire at one point for being huge shareholders in companies that, in theory, are not aligned with their doctrine? I don't remember the specific examples and I don't think it was super egregious but still a definitely conflict of interest. Something like constantly preaching to the congregation about the dangers of caffeine and telling them to avoid it all while having a ton of shares in Pepsi Co. or something like that. I have a vague recollection of them selling off a bunch of stock once enough public pressure mounted but I could be mistaken.

Yes, there have been multiple examples of that in the past. I'm not as current on their finances as I used to be, but I do know they got nailed by the FTC for some extremely shady reporting and financial practices, to the tune of several million dollars in fines. Something about shell companies and other money-disguising hijinks.