Player Discussion Alexis Lafreniere

[ReddestRum]

He can dangle. He showed it in the Buffalo game. He doesn't trust himself, I think.

This is a bit of a stretch when I've seen Laf dangle 3 times in 219 games.

 

[will1066]

This is a bit of a stretch when I've seen Laf dangle 3 times in 219 games.

I don't disagree. But he's shown that he at least has the ability.

 

[ReddestRum]

I don't disagree. But he's shown that he at least has the ability.

Absolutely. I think he came out the game great to start the season. I think the new system is giving him confidence, but he seems to always hit this ceiling that he needs to overcome.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Absolutely. I think he came out the game great to start the season. I think the new system is giving him confidence, but he seems to always hit this ceiling that he needs to overcome.

He just gets bottled up and smothered way too easily as a puck carrier. feels like he's just skating into traffic with no time to do anything most times.

he doesn't have that 'gear' to separate or turn the corner on NHL defensemen. Nor the smarts or agility to create time and space more ploddingly like a Panarin does.

it is what it is

 

[NickyFotiu]

Bedard's linemates are journeyman Taylor Hall and ex-Kraken Ryan Donato. If he doesn't shoot, he's an idiot.

LOL so that has been our mistake? We have had Laf play with linemates that are too good so he won't shoot?

We are 2-1 under our new coach. I'm happy. In regards to Laf he will either excel or he won't. Nothing any of us can do about it but wait and see.

 

[DanielBrassard]

He just gets bottled up and smothered way too easily as a puck carrier. feels like he's just skating into traffic with no time to do anything most times.

he doesn't have that 'gear' to separate or turn the corner on NHL defensemen. Nor the smarts or agility to create time and space more ploddingly like a Panarin does.

it is what it is

This is pretty much it. There was a play that encapsulated this perfectly, it was either a 3-on-2 or 3-on-3 rush, Panarin in the middle hands it off to Lafreniere on the left wing and he gets swallowed up by the defender and the play went nowhere.

 

[RagFinMet]

I agree with most. He just isnt showing to be a good hockey player
Avg 2nd liner at best.
But I'm hoping Lavi sticks with him and he figures it out..

 

[bhamill]

I mean.. we know option 3 is not the case.

He hasn't "actually played quite well."

There are a lot of people who are still on the Laf train... But even they won't say this.

Laf has played quite well for a guy who broke into the NHL in his D+1 and been the third highest even strength goal scorer on a good team through his D+3. He plays a physical game, 2nd among forwards with 141 hits last year. His 2 way play is beyond most player that are his age or younger. He is a very solid 3rd/2nd liner through his first 3 season. YES, he has played quite well and there is no team in this league whose roster he would not make.
NOW, for a 1OA, Laf has NOT played quite well, he has been a big disappointment.

See how that works?
OBJECTIVELY he is a solid NHLer that has played quite well.
Subjectively, he has failed to live up to the high expectations people have for a 1OA.

 

[bhamill]

This is a bit of a stretch when I've seen Laf dangle 3 times in 219 games.

If someone has done it, they CAN do it. That doesn't mean they WILL do it, but the ability is there when you've seen it happen.

 

[NickyFotiu]

If someone has done it, they CAN do it. That doesn't mean they WILL do it, but the ability is there when you've seen it happen.

That actually reminds me of something Charles Barkley once said. Charles said something to the effect that most NBA players have the talent to average 20 points per game. He said the ones that do it have the desire to do it.

In the NBA scoring 50 points in a game is huge. Many all star players never scored 50 points in a game yet there are a handful of guys that scored 50 points in a game that were not considered much better than role players for their careers. Guys that averaged under 10 points a game for their careers.

Now in regards to Laf we will have to wait and see. I do not think it is purely a desire issue because the NHL has had some good stickhandlers that did not work hard and also some hard workers that could not stick handle well.

 

[bhamill]

That actually reminds me of something Charles Barkley once said. Charles said something to the effect that most NBA players have the talent to average 20 points per game. He said the ones that do it have the desire to do it.

In the NBA scoring 50 points in a game is huge. Many all star players never scored 50 points in a game yet there are a handful of guys that scored 50 points in a game that were not considered much better than role players for their careers. Guys that averaged under 10 points a game for their careers.

Now in regards to Laf we will have to wait and see. I do not think it is purely a desire issue because the NHL has had some good stickhandlers that did not work hard and also some hard workers that could not stick handle well.

Yup. That's accurate and fair.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Laf has played quite well for a guy who broke into the NHL in his D+1 and been the third highest even strength goal scorer on a good team through his D+3. He plays a physical game, 2nd among forwards with 141 hits last year. His 2 way play is beyond most player that are his age or younger. He is a very solid 3rd/2nd liner through his first 3 season. YES, he has played quite well and there is no team in this league whose roster he would not make.
NOW, for a 1OA, Laf has NOT played quite well, he has been a big disappointment.

See how that works?
OBJECTIVELY he is a solid NHLer that has played quite well.
Subjectively, he has failed to live up to the high expectations people have for a 1OA.

Objectively his stats are worse than Nail Yakupovs, in a higher scoring era

 

[bhamill]

Objectively his stats are worse than Nail Yakupovs, in a higher scoring era

That doesn't change anything I said though... Are you predicting that Laf washes out of the league in the next few years? I'll take that bet.

 

[EdJovanovski]

That actually reminds me of something Charles Barkley once said. Charles said something to the effect that most NBA players have the talent to average 20 points per game. He said the ones that do it have the desire to do it.

In the NBA scoring 50 points in a game is huge. Many all star players never scored 50 points in a game yet there are a handful of guys that scored 50 points in a game that were not considered much better than role players for their careers. Guys that averaged under 10 points a game for their careers.

Now in regards to Laf we will have to wait and see. I do not think it is purely a desire issue because the NHL has had some good stickhandlers that did not work hard and also some hard workers that could not stick handle well.

If someone has done it, they CAN do it. That doesn't mean they WILL do it, but the ability is there when you've seen it happen.

Strongly disagree. Just because someone gets lucky a few times doesn’t mean they have the ability to do something consistently. Ovechkin & I could both take shots and he could fan on his and you’d think I was the better shooter than Ovechkin, maybe in that one moment I was since I got lucky. Or McDavid could blow a tire in a race against me. Every player has moments where everything clicks and the defending player makes an error and their deke works but the elite players have the ability to do it consistently. I don’t think it’s a lack of effort, Lafreniere is probably embarrassed about being the worst 1st overall pick in NHL history; under the bright lights of NYC. If he could dangle guys every game and score, he’d be doing it. He just doesn’t have the fast twitch muscle, doesn’t have the tools, the high end skill. Those few dangles were mid as well, where he did “the Kravtsov” is presumably what people are referring to, but he did it with no one around him. He didn’t do it to break the defenders ankles, it was completely unnecessary for him to even to do the move given how far away from the nearest player he was.

That doesn't change anything I said though... Are you predicting that Laf washes out of the league in the next few years? I'll take that bet.

If he were Russian, yes.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Strongly disagree. Just because someone gets lucky a few times doesn’t mean they have the ability to do something consistently. Ovechkin & I could both take shots and he could fan on his and you’d think I was the better shooter than Ovechkin, maybe in that one moment I was since I got lucky. Or McDavid could blow a tire in a race against me. Every player has moments where everything clicks and the defending player makes an error and their deke works but the elite players have the ability to do it consistently. I don’t think it’s a lack of effort, Lafreniere is probably embarrassed about being the worst 1st overall pick in NHL history; under the bright lights of NYC.

Laf is not the worst. That is going a bit too far. I will admit he probably is not the best though

 

[EdJovanovski]

Laf is not the worst. That is going a bit too far. I will admit he probably is not the best though

I know his stats through the same number of games are worse than Yakupovs, who I thought was regarded as the worst. Who’s worse? Definitely worst of my life time. His stats are worse than Daigles too. Who was worse?

 

[bhamill]

Strongly disagree. Just because someone gets lucky a few times doesn’t mean they have the ability to do something consistently. Ovechkin & I could both take shots and he could fan on his and you’d think I was the better shooter than Ovechkin, maybe in that one moment I was since I got lucky. Or McDavid could blow a tire in a race against me. Every player has moments where everything clicks and the defending player makes an error and their deke works but the elite players have the ability to do it consistently. I don’t think it’s a lack of effort, Lafreniere is probably embarrassed about being the worst 1st overall pick in NHL history; under the bright lights of NYC. If he could dangle guys every game and score, he’d be doing it. He just doesn’t have the fast twitch muscle, doesn’t have the tools, the high end skill. Those few dangles were mid as well, where he did “the Kravtsov” is presumably what people are referring to, but he did it with no one around him. He didn’t do it to break the defenders ankles, it was completely unnecessary for him to even to do the move given how far away from the nearest player he was.


If he were Russian, yes.

You can disagree all you want but that doesn't change the stark reality of it. We aren't talking about a blind, Hail Mary pass, or a lucky play. We are talking about executing something that requires control and ability. If he has done it even only three times, which is probably hyperbole, then he has SHOWN the ability to do it. Like if someone sets a record in a sprint, even if they never do it again, they have the physical ability to run that fast. That's way different than say throwing a dart with your eyes closed and getting a bullseye, THAT would be luck.

He'd wash out if he was Russian? Hahaha.
There are a LONG list of successful players in this league that had lesser numbers than Yakupov or Laf in their D+1-3. You bring Yakupov up in comparison because he was a high pick. But that's a subjective standard. Just looking at Laf's numbers and play in relation to the league, he's objectively solid.

 

[bhamill]

Objectively his stats are worse than Nail Yakupovs, in a higher scoring era

BTW, just took a quick look.
Yakupov in 350 NHL games had 43 EV goals
Laf in 219 NHL games has had 45 EV goals...

 

[Greg02]

I know his stats through the same number of games are worse than Yakupovs, who I thought was regarded as the worst. Who’s worse? Definitely worst of my life time. His stats are worse than Daigles too. Who was worse?

He's not even the worst 1OA picked by the Rangers out of Quebec.

 

[EdJovanovski]

BTW, just took a quick look.
Yakupov in 350 NHL games had 43 EV goals
Laf in 219 NHL games has had 45 EV goals...

Worse points and actual stats, idk why we always have to use obscure situational stats to make the case that he compares favorably to such a big bust like Yakupov

 

[Profet]

YES, he has played quite well and there is no team in this league whose roster he would not make.

I'd argue he possibly wouldn't have even made the Rangers out of camp had it not been for his draft pedigree.

There are plenty of NHL teams that he wouldn't make. Why? Because he's not a high caliber second line player. Many teams require their bottom players to do things like kill penalties, be shutdown/matchup players, etc. Laf isn't that.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I know his stats through the same number of games are worse than Yakupovs, who I thought was regarded as the worst. Who’s worse? Definitely worst of my life time. His stats are worse than Daigles too. Who was worse?

Well to start our previous #1 never played an NHL game. Other guys that would be in the discussion are Greg Joly, Doug Wickenheiser, Brian Lawton, Patrick Stefan, and that McDavid guy.

 

[Vito Andolini]

Laf has played quite well for a guy who broke into the NHL in his D+1 and been the third highest even strength goal scorer on a good team through his D+3.

ESP/60 as per quanthockey.com

2022-23 - 1.877 (Ranked 8th of regular forwards)
2021-22 - 1.725 (Ranked 7th...)
2020-21 - 1.784 (Ranked 6th...)

He produces 3rd line level ESP when compared to his teammates and adjusted for ice time. And amongst his peers in Kakko and Chytil, they outpaced him last year.

 

[bhamill]

Worse points and actual stats, idk why we always have to use obscure situational stats to make the case that he compares favorably to such a big bust like Yakupov

Apples to apples matters. If one player gets a bunch of points on the power play and the other guy doesn't get real power play time, that's not a level playing field. And since WHEN is 5v5 scoring an "obscure" stat? ahahahaha.

But I could counter by saying, once again: a subjective view of Laf in the context of being a 1OA shows him to be truly disappointing so far. (Though just because Yakupov washed out, doesn't at all mean Laf will. That's ridiculous.) AND an objective view of Laf in the context of being an NHLer shows him to be a solid player. These two things are both true. That's just the reality of it, no matter how anyone FEELS about it.

I'd argue he possibly wouldn't have even made the Rangers out of camp had it not been for his draft pedigree.

There are plenty of NHL teams that he wouldn't make. Why? Because he's not a high caliber second line player. Many teams require their bottom players to do things like kill penalties, be shutdown/matchup players, etc. Laf isn't that.

He would have made the team out of camp because he showed he's a solid NHLer the last three years and JUST turned 22. Just like lots of vets didn't show much in camp.
Laf hits and scores 5v5 goals: he'd make the 3rd line on any team.

 

[bhamill]

ESP/60 as per quanthockey.com

2022-23 - 1.877 (Ranked 8th of regular forwards)
2021-22 - 1.725 (Ranked 7th...)
2020-21 - 1.784 (Ranked 6th...)

He produces 3rd line level ESP when compared to his teammates and adjusted for ice time. And amongst his peers in Kakko and Chytil, they outpaced him last year.

And yet he still has the 3rd most EV goals on the team since he came here out of Juniors.