Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[brakeyawself]

They weren’t rushed. There hasn’t been a single #1 overall forward who didn’t play in the first year possible for 30 years and the one was Lindros who was holding out for a trade. #2 has been like 75% play over the last 20 years. They were treated just like most of their peers but once again we’re going to act like they should have been handled different and everyone is different

You aren't making an argument that they weren't rushed. You are making an argument that there is an issue within the NHL of expecting every 1st and most 2nd picks to enter the NHL whether they are ready or not. That's all that argument is suggesting. And that has to do with a lot of things, which I mentioned above. That has to do with the hype, the advertising, the fans, the media pressure and overall expectations driving the narrative and thus driving the automatic introduction of number 1 picks into the NHL regardless of if they are ready. That's really all your argument suggests. And most of all it probably has to do with money, putting fans in the seats, selling sweaters, latching on to that hype to conduct the money train. Also, GMs and coaches who so badly want to play with their "new toy".

It's like a kid getting a puppy for Christmas. A puppy that's supposed to be a hunting dog or something. And instead of training that puppy wholly, they just throw it out into the brush and expect it to do it's job. And sure it has the instincts, so it might have an inkling of what to do. But it will be the rare puppy who can actually accomplish it's tasks out of the gate. Your Kane's Crosbys, McDavids etc...

There's also a number of them that were thrown into very good situations their first season and maybe put up decent points, but it ended up hurting development in other parts of their game. In Yakupov's case I think it might have really hurt his career. Dahlin did well offensively, but other aspects of his game weren't ready and it seems to have negatively effected his development in regard to those aspects. Hischier, Hughes and Laf similarly. In the case of RNH, I think it ultimately slowed his growth to an extent also.

Powers is one of the few that didn't jump right to the NHL the year he was drafted and I think that is going to pay off. Probably what should have been done with Dahlin. Plus, the number they were picked is kind of irrelevant. Just because two players are chosen at the same pick doesn't at all mean they are equivalently ready. And we can see that effects picksk 2+ to an even higher extent. Whether or not a prospect should enter the NHL the season they are draft should have absolutely nothing to do with where they were picked and everything to do with if they are individually ready. Both Laf and Kakko would have obviously benefited from another year or two developing outside of the NHL. Yakupov and the others I mentioned as well.

Then we can look at guys like Hayton, Kotkaniemi, Reinhart, Nolan Patrick who clearly were not ready. And it gets worse the further down the number of draft pick you go. So it's ridiculous to suggest just because a player was a number 1 pick they should be sent directly to the NHL, or a 2nd or 3rd or whatever. And I hope teams start catching on to this given this last draft, where the top picks did not come directly into the NHL. And of course part of that had to do with CV19 and them not having full seasons leading up to their draft year. But the players themselves might be understanding this to an extent with a guys like Power, Beniers, Hughes, Clarke, Johnson opting to stay in college.

 

[Chefrah54]

I love Laff and I think he will be very good for us , as we see he looks like he has been turning the corner , my only qualm is he gets muscled around way to easy, his age shows as far a playing with "MEN" and the PO are for men , he needs to get much stronger but as far as the IQ , toughness and skill it's definitely there ..

 

[brakeyawself]

There was literally one this year (Power). Draisaitl was also sent down to the minors because he struggled in his first year. Beyond that, how many of the teams in those 30 years had a top 6 like the Rangers? Again, the issue is minutes and development. Those 30 years worth of teams could give those top picks the minutes they needed. The Rangers couldn't. Minutes are more important than marketing (in terms of player development). If they couldn't get the minutes at MSG, then they should have been sent to where they could get those minutes. And if they were "treated like most of their peers" they would have been fed top line minutes and PP1 time. Obviously, with Zib/Bread/Kreider/Buch etc that wasn't going to be possible, so they were already being handled different from every other top draft pick. The choice is to handle them different WITH developmental minutes or to handle them different with 3rd/4th line scrub minutes and a destroyed confidence. The team chose option B. IMO, that was the wrong answer.

Yup exactly. The fact that they are number 1 or number 2 picks is irrelevant. It's about each individual player and where they are in their development. It's about if they can get the minutes and quality ice time to develop. And I was SO happy that a lot of the kids this past draft CHOSE to return to college or wherever. In some cases it was probably the team that decided, like Guenther, Eklund, Edvinsson. But in the case of Power, Beniers, Clarke, Johnson, Hughes, I think they chose to stay, which is a very smart decision on their part. And we've seen how rushing a kid can hurt their career long term, even if they end up having a decent first season, like Yakupov or Nolan Patrick. I think it stunted RNH, Dahlin and some others to a degree as well. At least in terms of their overall game. Dahlin might have been ready offensively, to drive a PP or whatever, but overall, there were other things he could have learned if he stayed overseas just one more season.

 

[brakeyawself]

It’s hard to argue that a top 5 pick was rushed to the NHL.

Not at all. The fact they were top 5 picks has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's a matter of the individual player, where they are in their development, what they need, how rushing them to the NHL will impact their long term development, psychology and how mature they are . And it has to do with the minutes and quality ice time they will get. Just because teams do it, doesn't mean it's always the correct move. Again as we can see with like Yakupov, Patrick, Laf, Kakko, Hughes. Even Hischier I would say could have used another season to develop. Dahlin certainly as well, but yea he's a D.

 

[smoneil]

I said forward. It's widely thought that defensemen (and goalies) take longer to develop and they are less likely to make the NHL at age 18.

Draisaitl was a #3 pick. Only 6 of 14 #3 overall since the year 2000 (forwards) played a full NHL year. Every #1 in that range has. And something like 75% of #2.

Those 30 years of teams did not all give them the minutes. Hughes played 15:52. Stamkos 14:56. Yakupov 14:34. Seguin (#2) 12:13. Nash 13:57.

Re: the bold--I missed that (reading without the glasses).

How many of those minutes for Hughes and co were PP1? I can see that nearly half of Nash's rookie points came on the PP. About half of Hughes's rookie points came on the PP. 37% of Stamkos's rookie points were on the PP. A third of Yakupov's rookie points were on the PP.
Kakko? He started out with PP time, but then got pulled off the PP in his second year. Laf? He just got his first PP point last week.


Also note the jump in minutes from year 1 to year 2 for the guys you list:

Seguin jumped 5 minutes in TOI/G.
Nash jumped 3 and a half.
Hughes jumped 3+ minutes.
Stamkos jumped nearly 6 minutes.
Yakupov is the only one who didn't see a huge jump in TOI/G, actually dropping by a few seconds.

Kakko? His TOI/G went up 4 seconds from season 1 to season 2.

Laf? He saw just a 5 second bump in TOI/G, which is even worse when you look at the game log. They buried this kid for the entirety of November and December, to the point that he was seeing a full minute+ LESS time on ice compared to his rookie season. They started playing him more in February, and low and behold, he starts producing. Half of his points this season have come in the last 20 games (ie: since he started getting minutes).


And don't even get me started on Chytil, who has seen his minutes slashed three years running, despite regularly playing well with the top two lines when called upon to do so.


So from your list, the only player to be treated like Laf and Kakko was Yakupov, and he at least got PP time. He's also the only one on your list to have busted. The other players you mention were eased in a bit, given a chunk of PP minutes to build their confidence, and then opened the floodgates in year two in terms of TOI. That's a far cry from burying all the kid forwards on one line so you can lose them on the bench midway through any game that is remotely close.

 

[ohbaby]

Looks like a big shake up after the blowout by the Debbies. Laff is going back to the left side, which means he will be playing with Chytil and Goodrow on the 3rd line. Frankie V moves up and Copp will play with Panarin and Strome.

 

[bleedblue94]

Looks like a big shake up after the blowout by the Debbies. Laff is going back to the left side, which means he will be playing with Chytil and Goodrow on the 3rd line. Frankie V moves up and Copp will play with Panarin and Strome.

ugh

 

[romba]

Chytil’s flying out there, hopefully he clicks with Laf as both are playing much better than the last time they played together. Goodrow is meh, but kinda necessary defensively for that line so they’re not stuck in thed zone all game. Plus Laf will see lower grade opposition….trying to find the positives here lol

 

[The New Russian Five]

Since his move to the first line, Lafreniere had 10 even strength points in 19 games, a pace of 43 per 82.

To put that in perspective, here are some other even strength per 82 paces around the team and the league.

Kreider - 36
Zibanejad - 47
Fox - 41
Zegras - 45
Raymond - 43
Buchnevich - 48
Strome - 43

It's a nice neighborhood.

Here is the issue, since PP1 gets most of the PP time it means they get less 5on5 time. My assumption is that Laf plays much more 5v5 than those players so in a way his 5v5 stats are inflated as much as his pp stats are deflated from playing on PP2.

 

[Machinehead]

Here is the issue, since PP1 gets most of the PP time it means they get less 5on5 time. My assumption is that Laf plays much more 5v5 than those players so in a way his 5v5 stats are inflated as much as his pp stats are deflated from playing on PP2.

Everyone on our first PP unit has played way more at even strength than Lafreniere. They just play more, period.

Also, Barclay Goodrow has played more at even strength, which is fun.

 

[duhmetreE]

Lafreniere actually translates to Center in Frog language.

 

[Rangers in 7]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I f***ing called it

I knew this would f***ing happen

I will put money on it that he plays under 13 minutes tomorrow night….book it

This organization is a clown show

 

[Leonardo87]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I f***ing called it

I knew this would f***ing happen

I will put money on it that he plays under 13 minutes tomorrow night….book it

This organization is a clown show

I said with the addition of Copp, one of Kakko or Laf could be dropped to the 3rd line, I mean if the team is winning and competing you go with your more proven vet players. It stings but Copp is producing more than Laf and Kakko this year. If the tide changes, then you throw Laf back up there.

 

[JohnC]

I said with the addition of Copp, one of Kakko or Laf could be dropped to the 3rd line, I mean if the team is winning and competing you go with your more proven vet players. It stings but Copp is producing more than Laf and Kakko this year. If the tide changes, then you throw Laf back up there.

Comfortably in the playoffs while the kid is stringing together the best hockey of his career? Don’t see the logic tbh.

If this were the playoffs and it just wasn’t working for Laf? Sure, throw the vets in his spot.

They basically have nothing to gain by doing this.

 

[Leonardo87]

Comfortably in the playoffs while the kid is stringing together the best hockey of his career? Don’t see the logic tbh.

If this were the playoffs and it just wasn’t working for Laf? Sure, throw the vets in his spot.

They basically have nothing to gain by doing this.

Yeah I sorta agree, but am thinking like a head coach here, go with the experience vet. Unless Laf is explosive on that 3rd line, I don’t think Gallant is going to give him the time of day. He said he wants to put him on his natural side, I don’t buy that. Was doing very well on RW with Mika and Kreider. He is going with vet presence over a player who is still sorta inexperienced and developing. That is what I see. Whether we agree or not, can’t do anything expect hope Laf takes the demotion and uses it to motivate him.

 

[Cag29]

Would you guys trade Caufield straight up for Laff?

No.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Chytil’s flying out there, hopefully he clicks with Laf as both are playing much better than the last time they played together. Goodrow is meh, but kinda necessary defensively for that line so they’re not stuck in thed zone all game. Plus Laf will see lower grade opposition….trying to find the positives here lol

Was not that long ago (2014) that our 3rd line played almost as many minutes as our top 6. That our 3rd line RW (Zooks) led the team in points. If the 3rd line plays well they get minutes. Coaches want to win. They will play the guys that move the needle.

With that said practice lines are not set in stone. They are often changed soon after.

 

[bhamill]

Comfortably in the playoffs while the kid is stringing together the best hockey of his career? Don’t see the logic tbh.

If this were the playoffs and it just wasn’t working for Laf? Sure, throw the vets in his spot.

They basically have nothing to gain by doing this.

Honestly, playing guys around the lineup to see what works for the team is perfectly reasonable when you get a few new additions.
I am actually looking forward to seeing that third line play, and as noted above being the third line doesn’t HAVE to mean less ice time. if they are driving play, helping the team win, they will be out there.
im not saying I wanted Laf moved, I’m just saying it’s not unusual to do what Gallant is doing.
Best case scenario those three click big time.

 

[themilosh]

No.

Just curious, but why not?

 

[TheDirtyH]

Just curious, but why not?

I think anyone who wouldn't would say no because they think Lafreniere has a higher upside and don't think there's enough separation between the two at this point to justify the swap... It's as simple as asking yourself why Montreal would do that trade.

 

[themilosh]

I think anyone who wouldn't would say no because they think Lafreniere has a higher upside and don't think there's enough separation between the two at this point to justify the swap... It's as simple as asking yourself why Montreal would do that trade.

Purely for having the homegrown kid. Only downfall for Laff would be the media mucroscope might be too daunting. But i think rn it would be a win win swap.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Purely for having the homegrown kid. Only downfall for Laff would be the media mucroscope might be too daunting. But i think rn it would be a win win swap.

I don't see an NHL team making a swap for that reason alone. At this point, for Lafreniere to be traded one for one with another player, you'd have to be assuming that the player coming in fills a completely different need or set of needs than Lafreniere does or can--be it skill set, position, or timeline. Caufield is a scoring winger who is only a year older, with less NHL experience, plays the wing also, etc, so he's not really that.

The only other reason why that trade would happen, from a Rangers perspective, is if they are down significantly on Lafreniere's upside and think they are taking on a better projectible NHLer. That's not a POV I share, and I don't think there's much to indicate the Rangers feel the same.

I think if it were Caufield and MTL's first rounder this year, you get Drury not to hang up on you. But then, I don't think that's a great trade for Montreal...

 

[2014nyr]

Honestly, playing guys around the lineup to see what works for the team is perfectly reasonable when you get a few new additions.
I am actually looking forward to seeing that third line play, and as noted above being the third line doesn’t HAVE to mean less ice time. if they are driving play, helping the team win, they will be out there.
im not saying I wanted Laf moved, I’m just saying it’s not unusual to do what Gallant is doing.
Best case scenario those three click big time.

this...no need to overreact. i didnt want him moved, and i want him on pp1 over strome but i get gg wanting to look at options and i get the latter isnt realistic this year.

laf has gotten a lot better in his skating and keeping the motor going on the forecheck and def looked fine w mika/kreider. but lets be honest hes not driving play or creating chances himself and hes fully capable of doing that regardless of his line. and to be clear im his biggest fan and think hes been good on 1st line...but realistically hes still the 3rd wheel. he still needs more leg strength - you see him get a puck on the wall he makes a pass from that spot - doesnt try to take open ice or take someone on to open up some ice....same on headman passes he always pulls up rather than attack the middle or drive wide, he hasnt shown he can take a pass and find a shot in traffic. these are next steps for him, but until he can do these things hes not gonna be a indisputable 1st line player - and while a lot of this is off ice he can deploy those skills on any line as they develop

 

[mas0764]

Honestly, playing guys around the lineup to see what works for the team is perfectly reasonable when you get a few new additions.
I am actually looking forward to seeing that third line play, and as noted above being the third line doesn’t HAVE to mean less ice time. if they are driving play, helping the team win, they will be out there.

Yeah but I said the same thing about Kreider and a bunch of babies threw a temper tantrum.

 

[mas0764]

I think if it were Caufield and MTL's first rounder this year, you get Drury not to hang up on you. But then, I don't think that's a great trade for Montreal...

If Montreal was to win the first overall pick, and then offer that first overall pick and Caufield, I'd begin to think about it.