Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[Amazing Kreiderman]

he's certainly not focused on outplaying the top NYR brass so far, which I know isn't easy but if he was that type of #1 OVR with that drive we'd be sitting here questioning whether or not Kreids/Panarin should be moved down in place of Alexis because he'd be that good.
He already seems content with being what he is here in NY, a 3rd line checking forward. I want him to bark & bite with consistency, not disappear in the big moments. I've been waiting 3 years for that consistency and I feel slighted because nothing seems concrete.

I really blame Canadian media that year, they were infatuated with Laf

Lias Andersson (7) was traded for a 60th overall pick, used to draft (hopefully) a future 4th liner

Vitaly Kravtsov (9) was traded for a 7th round pick

Kaapo Kakko (2) is playing like a 2nd line player

Alexis Lafrenière (1) plays like a 3rd line player

Not really the return on investment you want from 4 consecutive top-10 picks. Whether it's drafting the wrong players (doesn't apply to Kakko and Laf), the scouting, the development by the org... It's simply not good enough.

People joke about the Oilers, but this is worse.

There's time with Kakko and Laf still but within their respective draft classes Lafrenière doesn't even get close to the top-3 in 5v5 P/60. At least Kakko is up there with goals. But still not meeting expectations.

Kaapo Kakko ranks in his draft class:
8th in P/60
5th in G/60


Alexis Lafrenière ranks in his draft class:
10th in P/60
8th in G/60


*min 10 GP

 

[bhamill]

18th overall pick vs 1st overall pick. Expectations and development trajectories are way different. And for what it’s worth, Mercer and several other players from his draft have already surpassed Lafreniere in production rate.

I’m not advocating to trade Lafreniere, but his career so far has been a massive disappointment for his draft slot.

I get that, I want way more too, and if you aren't suggesting we should "get what we can for him," then my post doesn't really apply to you. I'm not saying anyone has to be happy with his play or development.
But this mindset is kind of like it's a better idea to ship off a 1OA that is disappointing than an 18th over all that is disappointing...
Unpopular opinion, but completely rational, is that three years removed it DOESN'T MATTER WHERE A PLAYER WAS DRAFTED. What matters is what kind of player they are and/or will be.
And I've said all along, he isn't untouchable, but if you cant get value for him it's f***ing stupid to trade him. And, IMO at least, a mid first or the like is NOT value for him.

I'm more on board with that with Kakko, who I think will be good later on like Zibanejad and Kreider were.

I really don't think Lafreniere is any better than he was day 1.

You know I respect you, BUT... That's kind of insane. He's way better all around than he was on day one...

 

[bhamill]

I think he'll be fine but I don't know if he'll ever be fine here.

He's still growing into his frame and I think his average speed would look much better on a team with a decent transition where everyone doesn't look like they're skating in mud but his biggest problem is his brain. He can really shoot the puck (like really, really shoot the puck) but almost never does. He was a very good playmaker but all of his passes seem to be safe ones to the point where offense goes to die on this team; the handful of aggressive passes he makes he looks hesitant.

A lot of being elite is throwing sh** against the wall to see what sticks. You play to your strengths, act on instinct and have a willingness to make a mistake to generate high danger chances. As long as he has this "I am just happy to be here" mentality where he is content to just defer to others he is never going to be productive. Same goes for Kakko.

True. and as to your third paragraph, Well hopefully he doesnt think like a 21 year old FOREVER. He's just a kid.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I get that, I want way more too, and if you aren't suggesting we should "get what we can for him," then my post doesn't really apply to you. I'm not saying anyone has to be happy with his play or development.
But this mindset is kind of like it's a better idea to ship off a 1OA that is disappointing than an 18th over all that is disappointing...
Unpopular opinion, but completely rational, is that three years removed it DOESN'T MATTER WHERE A PLAYER WAS DRAFTED. What matters is what kind of player they are and/or will be.
And I've said all along, he isn't untouchable, but if you cant get value for him it's f***ing stupid to trade him. And, IMO at least, a mid first or the like is NOT value for him.


You know I respect you, BUT... That's kind of insane. He's way better all around than he was on day one...

I dont think he's any better defensively than he was when he first got drafted and all the data supports that, but he has made slight improvements offensively, not enough to turn him into a more than mediocre player though.

 

[Machinehead]

You know I respect you, BUT... That's kind of insane. He's way better all around than he was on day one...

He still can't skate, he still can't receive a pass, he still sucks defensively. He went from 0.37 PPG to 0.47 PPG...I guess.

Here's Lafreniere year 1 vs year 3:

He's arguably worse.

Meanwhile, Kakko went from not even close to an NHL player year 1, to meh in year 3, to objectively a good player in year 4.

If we're going to argue they're not superstars, but let's see what they develop into as regular players, fine, but only Kakko is really developing.

 

[bhamill]

I dont think he's any better defensively than he was when he first got drafted and all the data supports that, but he has made slight improvements offensively, not enough to turn him into a more than mediocre player though.

Offense, defense, forechecking, backchecking and physical play have all improved. Even his skating has somewhat. He's NOT the player he was on Day One. You want to say he hasn't improved ENOUGH, that's reasonable. To say he hasn't developed at all? That's factually incorrect. He's a mediocre NHL player at 21. Guess that means we should assume that's all he will be and trade him for a mid first or whatever other insane deal I see getting suggested. hahaha. If he was a 2nd rounder (or 18th OA) we'd be calling him "untouchable," despite the fact that he is the same player regardless of draft position. It's nuts.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Lias Andersson (7) was traded for a 60th overall pick, used to draft (hopefully) a future 4th liner

Vitaly Kravtsov (9) was traded for a 7th round pick

Kaapo Kakko (2) is playing like a 2nd line player

Alexis Lafrenière (1) plays like a 3rd line player

Not really the return on investment you want from 4 consecutive top-10 picks. Whether it's drafting the wrong players (doesn't apply to Kakko and Laf), the scouting, the development by the org... It's simply not good enough.

People joke about the Oilers, but this is worse.

There's time with Kakko and Laf still but within their respective draft classes Lafrenière doesn't even get close to the top-3 in 5v5 P/60. At least Kakko is up there with goals. But still not meeting expectations.

Kaapo Kakko ranks in his draft class:
8th in P/60
5th in G/60


Alexis Lafrenière ranks in his draft class:
10th in P/60
8th in G/60


*min 10 GP

It's just the simple facts Steven.

I am always hopeful the kids will suddenly turn into stars. Thats my job as a fan. I could sit here all day and be negative, because its easy to be when you are a Rangers fan lol

Put the blame on whomever you want. They were mishandled, they were blocked. The kids didnt show enough to take the time. Whatever. It doesnt matter.

This is the reality right now.

I think Kakko can continue to build and give this team something very tangible, Laffy im not so sure about, but as i said - Im not one to give up hope. But the numbers dont lie. You are who you are.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Offense, defense, forechecking, backchecking and physical play have all improved. Even his skating has somewhat. He's NOT the player he was on Day One. You want to say he hasn't improved ENOUGH, that's reasonable. To say he hasn't developed at all? That's factually incorrect. He's a mediocre NHL player at 21. Guess that means we should assume that's all he will be and trade him for a mid first or whatever other insane deal I see getting suggested. hahaha. If he was a 2nd rounder (or 18th OA) we'd be calling him "untouchable," despite the fact that he is the same player regardless of draft position. It's nuts.

There's different expectations for 1st overall picks compared to late 1st or 2nd rounders, come on man this is absurd. And he certainly would not be untouchable by any stretch regardless of draft position.

 

[bhamill]

If we're going to argue they're not superstars, but let's see what they develop into as regular players, fine, but only Kakko is really developing.

I'm arguing that he (and Kakko) still could BECOME superstars, or stars,or just very good players and that we should see what they turn into. Maybe even, gasp, give them the the benefit of the doubt since they didn't get traditional top pick treatment and usage, so they might take longer.
But even stopping short of that I'm pointing out how draft position expectations have people suggesting really bad trades involving the players.
Kakko is really coming around this year... was anyone saying that last year or the year before? These players are NOT a finished product at 21/22 that's nuts.

 

[LORDE]

Imagine blaming the 21 year old that's been purposefully held back his entire short NHL career being used as a 3rd liner with barely any PP time most of his career while the coach puts superstars like Hunt, Vesey, Goodrow, and Vatrano ahead of him on the depth chart, completely neutered. Imagine then expecting him to suddenly be anything in this series other than what he's been relegated to all his career.

The Devils from the start, from day one of their careers, took their top draft picks and threw them on top lines, top PP units, stuck with them there through mistakes and growing pains, didn't cut their nuts off, didn't scratch them didn't bench them for extended minutes. They leaned on them as top players, and now in this series they are top players.

That's how you rebuild. That's how you develop players. Not this stone age "when it's their turn" bullshit.

Treat a player and develop a player as secondary and tertiary... then expect that. Don't be flabbergasted when they aren't primary players.

If we are blaming players in this series, blame the 11 million dollar man. Blame the guy whose supposed to be the top center.

I'll start blaming Lafreniere, Kakko, and Chytil, even Schneider when they're finally leaned on as premiere players on the team. Not while they're still regarded by the coach as an afterthought between the veterans' shifts.

Maybe Panarin will one day learn to get off the frigging ice when his legs have reached muscle failure instead of selfishly coasting and looking to throw the puck laterally through the opposition... and the kids can get a few extra seconds on their own shifts before sitting for the next 8 minutes waiting around for another shift, longer if there's any special teams play.

That all said, yeah, if some of his chances he's had went into the back of the net we'd be singing a different tune. And I've said from the start that this team won't win shit until the kids are the ones really leading the way. And that's being proven..But that also can't happen while they're relegated to the roles they're in. I can't throw them under a bus for this series. That's just ridiculous.

I didn't read anyone on here blaming him & not Panarin &/or Zbad

Criticizing him isn't mutually exclusive from blame being laid at the feet of those two AND others.

The Garden was a funeral home in game 4 & that's completely on THE TEAM as a whole.

Laf included

 

[bhamill]

There's different expectations for 1st overall picks compared to late 1st or 2nd rounders, come on man this is absurd. And he certainly would not be untouchable by any stretch regardless of draft position.

You are illustrating my point. It's all about expectations, not the players they actually are and can become.
I have NEVER said people shouldn't be disappointed, hell I'M disappointed. I'm saying that assuming a player is what he is at 21/22/23 is nuts, and selling low on a guy who we'd be salivating over if picked 18th, because he was 1OA, is nuts. We aren't getting value for Laf trading him for a mid first, who isn't guaranteed to ever make the NHL, never mind be a "mediocre" NHLer at 21. It is irrational and based off of expectations only.

 

[ReddestRum]

The Devils’ 21 year old Mercer is 0-0-0 with a -2. I wonder if their fans are shitting on him and saying they should trade him for a mid first.

When your 21 year old 18th overall is doing well in the season, but can't put it together in the playoffs is carried by your other 21 year old 1st who has become the face of the franchise at the same age he's allowed to drink... I think all is still right with the universe for your team. That's a great future to look forward to if you ask me.

 

[bhamill]

When your 21 year old 18th overall is doing well in the season, but can't put it together in the playoffs is carried by your other 21 year old 1st who has become the face of the franchise at the same age he's allowed to drink... I think all is still right with the universe for your team. That's a great future to look forward to if you ask me.

Hughes is special. That has nothing to do with the conversation. Wish we had had the chance to draft him. I didn't say there's not a great future for the Devils to look forward to. I didn't say Mercer should be shit on or traded. The opposite actually. The whole POINT is it would be absurd to do that with Mercer, just like it is to do that with Laf or Kakko...

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

he's certainly not focused on outplaying the top NYR brass so far, which I know isn't easy but if he was that type of #1 OVR with that drive we'd be sitting here questioning whether or not Kreids/Panarin should be moved down in place of Alexis because he'd be that good.
He already seems content with being what he is here in NY, a 3rd line checking forward. I want him to bark & bite with consistency, not disappear in the big moments. I've been waiting 3 years for that consistency and I feel slighted because nothing seems concrete.

I really blame Canadian media that year, they were infatuated with Laf

I remember people were so infatuated with him because they were like, "oh my God, how did he do that." Because he wasn't displaying the skill quite as much as other CHL point leaders... He thinks the game at an accelerated pace, I really do believe that. He's like Fox, thing is, he doesn't have the matching athletic ability, it appears.

I think we have one of those guys who can do anything and really well. I think of Brian Rolston, David Bacchus, maybe a poor man's Patrice Bergeron -- he has proven he has the vision, but the physical ability to deliver the passes like that...? And I know the guys I mentioned are centers, but I actually always thought it would be good center, may be Jason Arnott or Andrew Ladd. And it feels wrong to name drop comparisons, but why the hell not?

I'm really high. But you get it...

 

[bhamill]

I remember people were so infatuated with him because they were like, "oh my God, how did he do that." Because he wasn't displaying the skill quite as much as other CHL point leaders... He thinks the game at an accelerated pace, I really do believe that. He's like Fox, thing is, he doesn't have the matching athletic ability, it appears.

I think we have one of those guys who can do anything and really well. I think of Brian Rolston, David Bacchus, maybe a poor man's Patrice Bergeron -- he has proven he has the vision, but the physical ability to deliver the passes like that...? And I know the guys I mentioned are centers, but I actually always thought it would be good center, may be Jason Arnott or Andrew Ladd. And it feels wrong to name drop comparisons, but why the hell not?

I'm really high. But you get it...

I get what you are saying and I'm NOT high. At the moment.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I get what you are saying and I'm NOT high. At the moment.

I meant high and weed, not necessarily Laf. He's proven that it's good to temper your expectations. I definitely agree though, he seems pretty comfortable as checking forward with third line ability right now.. He will grow, and you have to be good at something to be the number one overall pick

 

[n8]

I remember people were so infatuated with him because they were like, "oh my God, how did he do that." Because he wasn't displaying the skill quite as much as other CHL point leaders... He thinks the game at an accelerated pace, I really do believe that. He's like Fox, thing is, he doesn't have the matching athletic ability, it appears.

I think we have one of those guys who can do anything and really well. I think of Brian Rolston, David Bacchus, maybe a poor man's Patrice Bergeron -- he has proven he has the vision, but the physical ability to deliver the passes like that...? And I know the guys I mentioned are centers, but I actually always thought it would be good center, may be Jason Arnott or Andrew Ladd. And it feels wrong to name drop comparisons, but why the hell not?

I'm really high. But you get it...

I was really hoping we could have gotten #3 and #5 OA from Ottawa for #1 OA that year. Seemed like good asset management at the time. 500 IQ move in retrospect.

 

[UnSandvich]

He still can't skate, he still can't receive a pass, he still sucks defensively. He went from 0.37 PPG to 0.47 PPG...I guess.

Here's Lafreniere year 1 vs year 3:

View attachment 697651

View attachment 697652

He's arguably worse.

Meanwhile, Kakko went from not even close to an NHL player year 1, to meh in year 3, to objectively a good player in year 4.

View attachment 697653

View attachment 697654

View attachment 697655

If we're going to argue they're not superstars, but let's see what they develop into as regular players, fine, but only Kakko is really developing.

I mean, in fairness, compare Laf Y3 with Kakko Y3, and Laf comes out ahead on your charts. And if Laf has a Y4 like Kakko did, and Kakko continues to improve…

 

[Machinehead]

I mean, in fairness, compare Laf Y3 with Kakko Y3, and Laf comes out ahead on your charts. And if Laf has a Y4 like Kakko did, and Kakko continues to improve…

Yeah but Kakko was also really good year 2. He took a step back but at least he showed that. Laf has really yet to show an impressive season.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

If you ask me, I really get the impression that all of Laf's issues come from between his ears. I feel like his head is in the clouds.

He seems like the type to go "well I'm held back because of my minutes and the vets ahead of me and I'm content to be a depth player" instead of what I would want which is "I'm going to work so hard and improve so much that I dominate my minutes and force the team to move me up the lineup".

Feels like he's just happy to be here and more than content using external justifications for how things have gone for him.

I really like him and want nothing more than for him to turn the corner and become a difference maker, but I just really fear either it will never happen or if it does it won't happen until he gets slapped with reality and gets traded.

 

[ReddestRum]

Hughes is special. That has nothing to do with the conversation. Wish we had had the chance to draft him. I didn't say there's not a great future for the Devils to look forward to. I didn't say Mercer should be shit on or traded. The opposite actually. The whole POINT is it would be absurd to do that with Mercer, just like it is to do that with Laf or Kakko...

Honest question. If you excluded all our vets and had to choose a "kid" to be the face of the Rangers franchise right now, who would it be?

 

[haohmaru]

Honest question. If you excluded all our vets and had to choose a "kid" to be the face of the Rangers franchise right now, who would it be?

Fox. No one on "the kid line". Maybe Othmann down the road.

Nothing about any of the three screams leadership or "face of the franchise".

 

[bhamill]

I meant high and weed, not necessarily Laf. He's proven that it's good to temper your expectations. I definitely agree though, he seems pretty comfortable as checking forward with third line ability right now.. He will grow, and you have to be good at something to be the number one overall pick

I knew what you meant. Hahaha.

Honest question. If you excluded all our vets and had to choose a "kid" to be the face of the Rangers franchise right now, who would it be?

Fox?
But if you mean from the kid line, I honestly don't know. Hopefully in a year or two we can say Laf, but its a hypothetical that really doesn't mean much to me. Who is the face of the franchise right now? I'm not sure I know.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I was really hoping we could have gotten #3 and #5 OA from Ottawa for #1 OA that year. Seemed like good asset management at the time. 500 IQ move in retrospect.

My brother was screaming to make that very move. I thought he was nuts.

Doubt if it was ever on the table, but looking back I'd take that trade in a heartbeat

Byfield at 2 isnt exactly lighting shit up either

 

[3rd Guy High]

Hockey is 80% confidence, reps and timing. Guess what - the easiest place to get ALL 3 of those is the power play.

No doubt if Laf was stapled to PP1 and the first/second line since his time here started, he’d be looking more like Hughes than the third liner he does now.

The year to do it was his first year, with the “developmental” coach they hired in Quinn. Instead, here we are. This org has a horrible track record of developing players. Back to back top 2 picks. Both consensus. Both lit up their previous leagues. Kakko lit up the world championship against NHLers. 4 straight top 10 picks.

18-23 are prime development years of utmost importance. Wasting the first few absolutely has an impact. Some players never recover. The book is still open on Kakko and Lafreniere.

But yeah sure - defense first. Whatever. What would it take to convince some of you it’s an organizational problem for f**ks sake?

Only saving grace is we don’t have to worry about cap space for them, because we were dumb enough to tie up 20 mil in a 4d and a top flight winger who apparently can’t produce in the playoffs.