Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[chosen]

The only time point predictions matter for teenage rookies are for fantasy leaguers. It goes without saying that teams picking No. 1 overall generally suck and can do one of two things with their 1st OA -- play the heck out of them and see what happens or put them on a gradual development scale where ice time and deployment are earned.

I find it incredibly unfair that Rangers fans expected a 19-year-old kid to step in and unseat one of Kreider, Panarin, or Buchnevich, all while learning Quinn's systems and playing in the toughest division in the league with 75 percent of the schedule against Cup contenders. Lafreniere is basically playing a playoff schedule for a rookie season. It's unprecedented and totally problematic when trying to assess a teenager's performance.

His skating is fine. Lafreniere's issue right now is adapting to the speed of the NHL and the zone schemes. Don't get the obsession with speed. Draisaitl isn't fast. Kane isn't fast. Panarin isn't fast. Scheifele isnt fast. Stone -- arguable the best winger in the game -- is also one of the slowest.

And for the record, I don't recall anyone every considering Lafreniere a near-generational talent.

To me, it sounds like Rangers fans got overly excited about the pick and failed to have reasonable expectations, and are now looking for a scapegoat since all the other fanbases are calling him a bust.

Alexandre Daigle was fast and exciting for Ottawa in 1993-94. He was their franchise and got everybody excited. Two years later he was on the fourth line.

Many 19-year-olds have excelled in the NHL, especially in recent years.

This toughest division crap is getting old and untrue. 75% Cup contenders? Really?

Every rookie has to learn a new system.

All rookies are playing similar schedules.

All of the players you mentioned as not being good skaters is odd. All of those players are incredibly elusive. Kane isn't a good skater?

I fully expect Lafrenniere to be light years better next season and I don't know anyone calling him a bust.

Alexander Daigle? Really?







.

 

[LORDE]

The only time point predictions matter for teenage rookies are for fantasy leaguers. It goes without saying that teams picking No. 1 overall generally suck and can do one of two things with their 1st OA -- play the heck out of them and see what happens or put them on a gradual development scale where ice time and deployment are earned.

I find it incredibly unfair that Rangers fans expected a 19-year-old kid to step in and unseat one of Kreider, Panarin, or Buchnevich, all while learning Quinn's systems and playing in the toughest division in the league with 75 percent of the schedule against Cup contenders. Lafreniere is basically playing a playoff schedule for a rookie season. It's unprecedented and totally problematic when trying to assess a teenager's performance.

His skating is fine. Lafreniere's issue right now is adapting to the speed of the NHL and the zone schemes. Don't get the obsession with speed. Draisaitl isn't fast. Kane isn't fast. Panarin isn't fast. Scheifele isnt fast. Stone -- arguable the best winger in the game -- is also one of the slowest.

And for the record, I don't recall anyone every considering Lafreniere a near-generational talent.

To me, it sounds like Rangers fans got overly excited about the pick and failed to have reasonable expectations, and are now looking for a scapegoat since all the other fanbases are calling him a bust.

Alexandre Daigle was fast and exciting for Ottawa in 1993-94. He was their franchise and got everybody excited. Two years later he was on the fourth line.

I'm not looking to pick a fight here at all,

But A) We NYR fans haven't ever had a #1 pick so yeah we probably want him to be a stud... some may have thought generational but most rational ones didn't.

and

B) All the excuses (COVID, good division, 10 months off, yada yada yada bisque) don't mean shit. Every team has covid issues... many teams have bad coaches...

I WANT TO SEE A FLASH OF BRILLIANCE besides one shootout goal... because honestly... I could score a shootout goal and I'm 47

 

[mas0764]

This gets talked about a lot even though it is not true.

North: 6.1 goals/game
East: 5.8 goals/game
Central: 5.8 goals/game
West: 5.8 goals/game

Maybe it's because high end teams are playing high end teams; therefore, high amounts of goals are still getting scored.

Versus in another conference lousy offenses are playing lousy defenses.

 

[mas0764]

Without looking, I'm unaware of any generational talents who came out at a 20-point rate per season.

Joe Thornton.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Joe Thornton.

Thornton had 7 pts in 55 games as an 18y old.

Then he had 41 in 81 games as a 19y old.

 

[mas0764]

The only time point predictions matter for teenage rookies are for fantasy leaguers. It goes without saying that teams picking No. 1 overall generally suck and can do one of two things with their 1st OA -- play the heck out of them and see what happens or put them on a gradual development scale where ice time and deployment are earned.

I find it incredibly unfair that Rangers fans expected a 19-year-old kid to step in and unseat one of Kreider, Panarin, or Buchnevich, all while learning Quinn's systems and playing in the toughest division in the league with 75 percent of the schedule against Cup contenders. Lafreniere is basically playing a playoff schedule for a rookie season. It's unprecedented and totally problematic when trying to assess a teenager's performance.

His skating is fine. Lafreniere's issue right now is adapting to the speed of the NHL and the zone schemes. Don't get the obsession with speed. Draisaitl isn't fast. Kane isn't fast. Panarin isn't fast. Scheifele isnt fast. Stone -- arguable the best winger in the game -- is also one of the slowest.

And for the record, I don't recall anyone every considering Lafreniere a near-generational talent.

To me, it sounds like Rangers fans got overly excited about the pick and failed to have reasonable expectations, and are now looking for a scapegoat since all the other fanbases are calling him a bust.

Alexandre Daigle was fast and exciting for Ottawa in 1993-94. He was their franchise and got everybody excited. Two years later he was on the fourth line.

My recollection is that most sources - though I don't know, maybe not yours, had Lafreniere maybe just south of Matthews or possibly MacKinnon, but very close to that range, and definitely above Hughes, Dahlin, Svechnikov, Hischier, Patrick, etc. Given that Hischier put up 52 points, Svechnikov put up 37, and even Nolan Patrick put up 30, I think pretty much everyone was expecting at least high 30's to mid 50's pace (over an 82 game stretch). Instead, he's at about a 21 point pace over 82 games.

There is time to pick that pace up this season, and of course there are all the factors we talked about (harder to break into lineup on the top lines due to existing talent, covid-related difficulties, playing a much harder slate of opponents, etc), but I think it's reasonable to have some concern as well.

What's not reasonable is to say "It's been decided." Uh, no, we are nowhere close to knowing what he will end up as.

 

[mas0764]

Thornton had 7 pts in 55 games as an 18y old.

Then he had 41 in 81 games as a 19y old.

We are still talking about his first season, come on, man. Experience matters.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

It's not a coaching issue. It's an experience issue. Quinn -- like all coaches -- has a playbook. He has a playbook for all three zones, special teams, etc. When new players show up, they have to learn it. Veteran players find it easier because the system may be a version of one they've played in already. And you can read the manuals and packets for months; they don't mean a thing without executing in practice.

Short training camp and packed-in schedule limits reduces practice time. Veterans can skirt by. The kids have the toughest time adapting.

translation: Quinn is terrible with the kids.

 

[chosen]

Joe Thornton.

If Joe Thornton was considered a generational talent before entering the NHL, Lafrenniere should definitely be considered one.

 

[CasusBelli]

Thornton had 7 pts in 55 games as an 18y old.

Then he had 41 in 81 games as a 19y old.

Someone made an interesting point: centers take longer to develop than wingers do. So, if he’s not getting it now, maybe it’s time to lower expectations. Besides ... isn’t Lafreniere 19 already?

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Someone made an interesting point: centers take longer to develop than wingers do. So, if he’s not getting it now, maybe it’s time to lower expectations. Besides ... isn’t Lafreniere 19 already?

Yes, he is 19. Yes, expectations should have been lower from the get go.

fyi all, I agree with Mr. Kournianos last page. We are way too hard on the kid around here.

And my heart aches at the idea that Alexis might read these pages and be sad.

 

[chosen]

translation: Quinn is terrible with the kids.

Oddly, only some of them.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Oddly, only some of them.

no , all of them. 23 year olds aren't kids

 

[Synergy27]

I’m not sure what percentage of this discussion is revisionist history and what percentage is simple disagreement on realistic expectations. I provided quite a bit of context several pages back that informed my expectations coming into this season (50-60 point player). I’m fine with discounting that quite a bit because of COVID and general weirdness.

What I continually ask, though, is for people to put their expectations on record in clear terms. You’re fine with Laf scoring at a 20 point pace this year. What do you expect him to do next year? Add some concrete terms to the conversation so that we can make actual comparisons to whatever ends up playing out as we move forward.

Points don’t matter to you at all right now? That’s ok, but I assume that has to change at some point? Tell us when. D+3? 4?

 

[mas0764]

If Joe Thornton was considered a generational talent before entering the NHL, Lafrenniere should definitely be considered one.

Well, I don’t want to get into semantics but Thornton is probably a Hall of Famer, no?

 

[mas0764]

Yes, he is 19. Yes, expectations should have been lower from the get go.

fyi all, I agree with Mr. Kournianos last page. We are way too hard on the kid around here.

And my heart aches at the idea that Alexis might read these pages and be sad.

So what are the right expectations?

 

[NYRFANMANI]

So what are the right expectations?

To have none.

 

[chosen]

no , all of them. 23 year olds aren't kids

Fox, Lindgren, and Miller are younger than 23, and by the way, where does the age 23 come from as the barometer of what a kid is?

Before he was hurt, Chytil qualified for this list, too.

 

[chosen]

Well, I don’t want to get into semantics but Thornton is probably a Hall of Famer, no?

I thought the whole point of this discussion was talking about what was anticipated from a player coming into the league.

 

[Doanator]

The Q is not a very defensive-oriented league so laf's stats and his draft ranking kind of overrated.

Nevertheless I still believe in him. He has the right attitude and will do whatever it takes to meet the expectations one day earlier as a Ranger or later on another team

 

[The S5]

By no means would I write the kid off, but, I would like to see more flashes of the kind of player he can become. Up to this point, I haven't seen elite skating, shot or puck skills. He has made a couple of very nice plays/passes, so there is a glimmer.
If he goes on to become a productive first or second line winger, that would be okay. There's not guaranties based on draft position.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

The Q is not a very defensive-oriented league so laf's stats and his draft ranking kind of overrated.

Nevertheless I still believe in him. He has the right attitude and will do whatever it takes to meet the expectations one day earlier as a Ranger or later on another team

So I guess the WJCs aren't very defensive oriented either? Just a terrible take. The Q isn't the same Q as it was a decade ago when nobody played defense.

 

[Rangers in 7]

Guy gets a point and everyone is still bitching. I should start bookmarking these dumb takes so when he’s a 90 point winger I can pull them out lol

 

[Rangeri]

It took Huberdeau 6 season to become PPG player and some guys don't give him even 30 games. Sounds fair.

I personally don't care what he is going to do this season. Live and learn boy. But i expect him work hard in the off-season. That usually is the thing that will separate wheat from the chaff. He definitely got the tools, lets see does he have the drive.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

It took Huberdeau 6 season to become PPG player and some guys don't give him even 30 games. Sounds fair.

I personally don't care what he is going to do this season. Live and learn boy. But i expect him work hard in the off-season. That usually is the thing that will separate wheat from the chaff. He definitely got the tools, lets see does he have the drive.

Nate Mackinnon wasn't even close to a PPG player until age 22...5th full season in the league.