Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[Pawnee Rangers]

But Laf is a 19 year old rookie drafted for his offense. He’s dog shit defensively too. It doesn’t mean he always will be, but almost universally, offensive stars start out producing and being a liability defensively and then develop better defensive play and decision making over their career. How can I say if Laf would be a top 4 forward on the PP if he doesn’t get more than 20 second glimpses on PP1? Am I saying he’s currently better than Strome overall? No, but how would anyone know if Laf would do well in Strome’s spot on the PP without giving it a chance. Would DeAngelo be as lights out on the PP if his unit was Buch, Lemieux, Rooney and Bitetto? Was he just so magical that he would make any PP lights out? Or was he a guy who, when used at the man advantage with a talented unit, shined then? Lafreniere may be a great PP player, maybe even what you’d call a PP specialist, at this early stage in his game, if he’s playing with Zib, Kreider, Panarin and Fox. We can’t know that, because even a PP specialist isn’t going to produce with Blackwell, Lemieux, Bitetto and Smith. If the PP can’t even get set in the zone and keep possession, not even Quinn Hughes is going to impress. A lack of 5v5 production =/= to unfit to play with talented players on the PP.

I can't stand Strome and Laff is not better than Strome right now. And Strome is a center! What if, just say, they put him on PP1 and he still struggles. Now, he's not scoring on the PP and not scoring on the team's top line. Where do you go from there? How much more pressure does that put on him? I like Laff, I'm delighted he's here, and I think he's going to be a great player for this team, I just don't think he should be force fed PP time when he's doing nothing remotely close to earning it at ES. And this idea that he needs better players to play with so he can play better is a bunch of bullshit. Blackwell doesn't have a quarter of the talent Laff has and is a lot more noticeable game in and game out.

 

[haveandare]

I don’t know if that’s true or not. The first few games were his first games of any kind in almost a year and his first ever taste of NHL hockey. Of course he might be tentative but he actually did look dangerous those first few games.

If Quinn is coming down on skilled kids for trying to be skill players or making them afraid of not making the safe play or taking risks and getting caught then essentially they’re not playing their game and they’re trying to play a game they don’t know how to play at all; safe, responsible NHL level hockey. I can’t think of any 1 OAs who stepped in and were asked not to make mistakes and to focus on their own end more than generating offense.

You draft #1 you want to nurture all of their talent and make sure they’re comfortable playing THEIR game at the NHL level. The other stuff will come over time - to some degree, whether it’s developing an elite two-way game like Crosby or Hossa over time, or just smoothing out the warts to not be a liability like MacKinnon or Draisaitl - but the first concern should be fostering the elite offensive skill they were drafted for.

If, and it’s a big if since I’m only speculating, Quinn is asking them to play reliable two-way hockey and not take chances, it’s likely it would manifest in exactly what we’re seeing. We do have a quote from Kakko to this effect from last year, which @Amazing Kreiderman can probably provide again, so it isn’t too far fetched of an idea.

I really don’t think he looked much better to start. All year he’s had some flashes and mostly forgettable play imo. The Kakko tbing last year isn’t weird to me. He was literally one of the worst performing skaters in the entire league. Telling him to keep it simple and focus on fundamentally not being a huge liability is not unreasonable at all.

I appreciate your takes and the reasonableness on this! None of us know for sure what’s going on behind the scenes but it’s nice to talk about it without it devolving into weird name calling

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

How did Kakko fare in it last year? How did Chytil his first couple of years?

There's a learning curve.

Saying, Panarin and Zibanejad had historic/career years last year, why isn't Laf doing good? is faulty logic imo. Compare Laf to all the other kids and imo he's ahead of them.

If we had a better transition, neutral zone game, zone entry, Laf would be putting up more points. Scoring on the rush or zone entry is what Laf is built for. PP is where Laf will excel. PP2 has been horrendous.

Kakko was horrible last year, who cares! I wasn't freaking out about him either. Did Quinn feed him PP time? No, he made him work on other aspects of his game and look at the difference that's made this year. Completely different (but snake bit) player. If Laff can't even dump the puck and go chase it what in the hell do you think giving him free reign is going to accomplish? You think he's dangle around two defenders like it's a men's league game? He's playing with really good players at ES and while he shows flashes, he still looks like a kid with less than 20 NHL games under his belt.

 

[LokiDog]

I can't stand Strome and Laff is not better than Strome right now. And Strome is a center! What if, just say, they put him on PP1 and he still struggles. Now, he's not scoring on the PP and not scoring on the team's top line. Where do you go from there? How much more pressure does that put on him? I like Laff, I'm delighted he's here, and I think he's going to be a great player for this team, I just don't think he should be force fed PP time when he's doing nothing remotely close to earning it at ES. And this idea that he needs better players to play with so he can play better is a bunch of bullshit. Blackwell doesn't have a quarter of the talent Laff has and is a lot more noticeable game in and game out.

I didn’t say he needs better players to play with. I said no PP - specifically PP - that’s comprised of Bitetto, Smith, Lemieux, Laf and Blackwell is going to give anyone a chance to shine offensively. I also said he is not better than Strome right now, who I also can’t stand. Just that he may do well specifically plugged into that spot on the PP. One specific situation. At EV, I’ve suggested sheltered minutes which would mean playing with less talented players in lower pressure situations. Playing the half wall on PP1 with talented players when the majority of the shift is spent in the zone, with the team in possession of the puck makes sense for a young, offensively talented rookie struggling to get his game going. Playing on the top line against other top lines at EV doesn’t make sense for a struggling teenager. He should be playing third line with softer matchups and less overall pressure. On the PP specifically with Zib at center, taking the draw than going to the left wall for the RH one-timer, Kreider going to net front, Laf going to the right wall for a good shooting and playmaking angle, with Panarin and Fox up top just makes sense structurally and puts him in a position to succeed. It’s fine if we disagree. It’s natural. No harm no foul and certainly no hard feelings. This is just my opinion of the situation.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I didn’t say he needs better players to play with. I said no PP, specifically PP, that’s comprised of Bitetto, Smith, Lemieux and Blackwell is going to give anyone a chance to shine offensively. At EV, I’ve suggested sheltered minutes which would mean playing with less talented players in lower pressure situations. Playing the half wall on PP1 with talented players when the majority of the shift is spent in the zone, with the team in possession of the puck makes sense for a young, offensively talented rookie struggling to get his game going. Playing on the top line against other top lines at EV doesn’t make sense for a struggling teenager. He should be playing third line with softer matchups and less overall pressure. On the PP specifically with Zib at center, taking the draw than going to the left wall for the RH one-timer, Kreider going to net front, Laf going to the right wall for a good shooting and playmaking angle, with Panarin and Fox up top just makes sense structurally and puts him in a position to succeed. It’s fine if we disagree. It’s natural. No harm no foul and certainly no hard feelings. This is just my opinion of the situation.

I guess we just don't agree and that's fine. My issue is, I've seen nothing from him, right now, that leads me to think he'd be successful in this scenario. I'm sure a year from now we'll all laugh at how silly this conversation was but I don't see the urgency or decision making in his game yet.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Chytil and Kakko have been two of our best three forwards this year, and Miller has been a treasure. I don't mind letting Quinn continue to handle the kids the way that he has been.

Show Chytil more tapes of Crosby off the puck, tell Kakko he has to manage the game before he can dipsy doodle, etc.

We may not have let them run free, but I'm 100% not trading the current Chytil or Kakko for a version that was allowed to 'run free' last year. If Lafreniere develops the same two-way dynamic play as those guys, to go with his existing skillset; then that's a big, "yes please!" from me.

 

[duhmetreE]

Kakko was horrible last year, who cares! I wasn't freaking out about him either. Did Quinn feed him PP time? No, he made him work on other aspects of his game and look at the difference that's made this year. Completely different (but snake bit) player. If Laff can't even dump the puck and go chase it what in the hell do you think giving him free reign is going to accomplish? You think he's dangle around two defenders like it's a men's league game? He's playing with really good players at ES and while he shows flashes, he still looks like a kid with less than 20 NHL games under his belt.

yeah you must be conflating me with other people. I do not care, I'm pointing out why he's not producing offensively. As all other young kids have struggled here.

IF we had a transition/possession entry game, IMO Laf would have more points. If he had PP1 time he would have more points. If you do not agree with that, that's fine. Carrying the puck does not equal dangling around an entire team.

Stutzle is not being asked to do what Laf is doing. I understand implementing a strict north-south style now, to benefit later. I just think it's a little too much in that direction.

Like i've already said... he's way ahead of the other young kids at this stage.

 

[aufheben]

Chytil and Kakko have been two of our best three forwards this year, and Miller has been a treasure. I don't mind letting Quinn continue to handle the kids the way that he has been.

Show Chytil more tapes of Crosby off the puck, tell Kakko he has to manage the game before he can dipsy doodle, etc.

We may not have let them run free, but I'm 100% not trading the current Chytil or Kakko for a version that was allowed to 'run free' last year. If Lafreniere develops the same two-way dynamic play as those guys, to go with his existing skillset; then that's a big, "yes please!" from me.

Chytil scored a Forsberg this year FFS. I don’t buy this stuff about creativity being coached out of them. It’s not the example that Panarin and Zibanejad are setting either. If anything the two-way play is what allows Chytil and now Kakko to generate more offense.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

yeah you must be conflating me with other people. I do not care, I'm pointing out why he's not producing offensively. As all other young kids have struggled here.

IF we had a transition/possession entry game, IMO Laf would have more points. If he had PP1 time he would have more points. If you do not agree with that, that's fine. Carrying the puck does not equal dangling around an entire team.

Stutzle is not being asked to do what Laf is doing. I understand implementing a strict north-south style now, to benefit later. I just think it's a little too much in that direction.

Like i've already said... he's way ahead of the other young kids at this stage.

How do you know he'd have more points when he seems to struggle doing the most basic stuff? Can you please point to any evidence - quote or analysis - that we don't have a transition/possession entry game? Do you recall an instance where the forward had the puck in the neutral zone with space and time and just dumped it in, because the system? Because honestly I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that this team is sacrificing zone entries or possession for the sake of a dump and chase system. In fact, it's been quite the opposite. Not getting pucks deep when that was the best option.

 

[will1066]

Chytil and Kakko have been two of our best three forwards this year, and Miller has been a treasure. I don't mind letting Quinn continue to handle the kids the way that he has been.

Show Chytil more tapes of Crosby off the puck, tell Kakko he has to manage the game before he can dipsy doodle, etc.

We may not have let them run free, but I'm 100% not trading the current Chytil or Kakko for a version that was allowed to 'run free' last year. If Lafreniere develops the same two-way dynamic play as those guys, to go with his existing skillset; then that's a big, "yes please!" from me.

"Hey kid, we know you're a drifting prodigy straight out of Fast & Furious. Go out there and do your thing. Don't worry about the traffic lights and traffic laws."

 

[duhmetreE]

How do you know he'd have more points when he seems to struggle doing the most basic stuff? Can you please point to any evidence - quote or analysis - that we don't have a transition/possession entry game? Do you recall an instance where the forward had the puck in the neutral zone with space and time and just dumped it in, because the system? Because honestly I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that this team is sacrificing zone entries or possession for the sake of a dump and chase system. In fact, it's been quite the opposite. Not getting pucks deep when that was the best option.

eyeballs? and yes, last game. 2 on 2's and 3 on 2's dumped in the puck. If I remember right, the first goal allowed came off a dump in where there was space and we lost possession.

How do I know? Because he's a world talent and our best prospect ever? He's struggling and looks lost with the game they are trying to implement. It happened with every single on of the d+1 kids. Like I said, he looks better than Chytil, Kakko and Lias at this stage imo. I am not worried about him.

I have no problem getting the puck deep. It's at the rate they do it and if/when they have space, they still do it. Going east/west at the blue line is not what I'm talking about and not what I would want to see.

North/South.. but with possession would be nice, when it's afforded to them.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

eyeballs? and yes, last game. 2 on 2's and 3 on 2's dumped in the puck. If I remember right, the first goal allowed came off a dump in where there was space and we lost possession.

How do I know? Because he's a world talent and our best prospect ever? He's struggling and looks lost with the game they are trying to implement. It happened with every single on of the d+1 kids. Like I said, he looks better than Chytil, Kakko and Lias at this stage imo.

I have no problem getting the puck deep. It's at the rate they do it and if/when they have space, they still do it. Going east/west at the blue line is not what I'm talking about and not what I would want to see.

North/South.. but sometimes with possession would be nice, when it's afforded to them.

They skate the puck into the zone all the damn time when they can. And just because a kid is a world talent or a team's best prospect ever doesn't mean they come in and dominate or get free reign. I wish he's done more so far, I really do, but I don't think his struggles are because of a system.

 

[duhmetreE]

They skate the puck into the zone all the damn time when they can. And just because a kid is a world talent or a team's best prospect ever doesn't mean they come in and dominate or get free reign. I wish he's done more so far, I really do, but I don't think his struggles are because of a system.

who ever said any of this? If a team were to carry and transition better than we do, it is fair to say there would be more points for the skill players.

Panarin is the only one to consistently carries the puck in. They didn't dump it in when they had space. I've seent it.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

who ever said any of this? If a team were to carry and transition better than we do, it is fair to say there would be more points for the skill players.

Panarin is the only one to consistently carries the puck in. They didn't dump it in when they had space. I've seent it.

It's not. Especially when the skill player you're talking about has shown very little thus far. I've yet to see him create his own shot, get to the dirty areas , or drive play consistently enough to warrant the belief that, if somehow the coach changed the system, or he weren't afraid to make a mistake, he'd have more points. Outside of a few times linemates didn't convert on some nice passes from him he looks like a 19 year old with less than 20 games under his belt.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

3.6 on ice shooting percentage. Jack Hughes had a 5% on ice shooting percentage last season.

 

[duhmetreE]

It's not. Especially when the skill player you're talking about has shown very little thus far. I've yet to see him create his own shot, get to the dirty areas , or drive play consistently enough to warrant the belief that, if somehow the coach changed the system, or he weren't afraid to make a mistake, he'd have more points. Outside of a few times linemates didn't convert on some nice passes from him he looks like a 19 year old with less than 20 games under his belt.

who has? The entire team is struggling with that... which circles back to, I do not like this system.

I disagree completely. We had the most 'NHL ready' prospects over the past few years. ALL have struggled. I doubt anyone is/was expecting them to 'dominate'. The average production would have been nice.

Our defenssemen had 2-3 years of college and all look great. So, either our forward prospects weren't NHL ready/the 'experts' were wrong or it's the system/environment they have been put into. I lean towards the system because I do not like it to begin with. I do not think Quinn is good at putting his players in position to succeed.

 

[The New Russian Five]

And you know for sure this was all Quinn? Who expected Kravtsov to make the team out of camp, him and his mom? Feels like a lot of reaching here.

How is it reaching when its a pattern. If it was just Kravtsov, then sure. But Lias seemed to also be disillusioned by his role on the team. Kakko look absolutely deflated last year and suggested in an interview that Quinn wanted him to keep his game very simple. Laf looks lost out there. It would be reaching if we were just talking about Kravtsov. But we aren't we're talking about 4 top 10 picks, none of whom have performed up to expectations. Are the rangers just that unlucky or is something else going on here?

So no, there isn't reaching here. You have an issue with 1 player, ok probably on the player, 2 players? I'll give the coach the benefit of the doubt. But 4? Come on man. Look at the pattern.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

How is it reaching when its a pattern. If it was just Kravtsov, then sure. But Lias seemed to also be disillusioned by his role on the team. Kakko look absolutely deflated last year and suggested in an interview that Quinn wanted him to keep his game very simple. Laf looks lost out there. It would be reaching if we were just talking about Kravtsov. But we aren't we're talking about 4 top 10 picks, none of whom have performed up to expectations. Are the rangers just that unlucky or is something else going on here?

So no, there isn't reaching here. You have an issue with 1 player, ok probably on the player, 2 players? I'll give the coach the benefit of the doubt. But 4? Come on man. Look at the pattern.

Anderson has 1 point and is a -6 in 11 games with the Kings. Kakko looks terrific this year. Kravtsov took his ball and went home because the mean people shipped him off to Hartford. And Laff is struggling 18 games into his NHL career. What pattern??

 

[TheDirtyH]

It's carbon copy of Kakko last season--that's why there's so much concern. We can say we've never seen a top pick be so bad--and that's bad enough--except that we have, a year ago, on the same team with the same coaches and management.

Early in the season there is some concern, it's not hitting the ground running, but nobody's really panicked or upset (never nobody, but mostly). Then the player just gets worse as the season goes on.

I watched a shift last game where Lafreniere couldn't stop the puck on his stick three times in the same shift, all in the offensive zone. That is puck-luck, sure. But it's also a player whose confidence is tanking. I don't care what Quinn says to the media about how Laf is taking it like a champ, no 1OA with his resume has the statline and isn't disturbed by it.

From an Elite Prospects blurb: "corrals bad passes with ease."

It's depressing.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

who has? The entire team is struggling with that... which circles back to, I do not like this system.

I disagree completely. We had the most 'NHL ready' prospects over the past few years. ALL have struggled. I doubt anyone is/was expecting them to 'dominate'. The average production would have been nice.

Our defenssemen had 2-3 years of college and all look great. So, either our forward prospects weren't NHL ready/the 'experts' were wrong or it's the system/environment they have been put into. I lean towards the system because I do not like it to begin with. I do not think Quinn is good at putting his players in position to succeed.

It just feels like your using Quinn's system argument - which you've yet to describe to me - to excuse a player's failure, when most of the time it's the other way around. People make way too much about systems anyway, this isn't like taking a running QB and trying to turn him into a pocket passer. He's a LW who isn't doing much when the puck ends up on his stick at the moment. I don't know what system is going to change that.

 

[Woncka]

It just feels like your using Quinn's system argument - which you've yet to describe to me - to excuse a player's failure, when most of the time it's the other way around. People make way too much about systems anyway, this isn't like taking a running QB and trying to turn him into a pocket passer. He's a LW who isn't doing much when the puck ends up on his stick at the moment. I don't know what system is going to change that.

Systems are certainly not able to be 'made too much about'

Theyre extremely important and vital to team success

They also affect confidence and, clearly, thats the issue with Alexis

 

[TheDirtyH]

If we're so committed to re-inventing the wheel with these two why not just play Lafreniere at center all season and turn him into a bigger Giroux.

 

[The New Russian Five]

One thing I notice a lot with Laf, is that he doesn't move his feet enough without the puck. He seems to have picked up a really bad habit of gliding into seams or stopping short on forechecks.

It's either, he isn't in shape and can't keep moving his feet consistently, or 2 he's developed a bad habit. I remember reading somewhere that because he was dominating the Q, this was an issue for him, because he didn't see the necessity to move his feet so much.

Do you know whose job it is to get him to light a fire under his ass and get him to start hustling if this is indeed a bad habit? The coach. It just doesn't seem like Quinn does anything to get him going.

I remember when I played high school hockey, my coach would call me out on that shit and threaten to bench me, and it always lit a fire under my ass and skated my ass off for a string of games. This never seems to happen with Laf. Either Quinn is calling him out on it, and Laf isn't responding to it, in which case he should be benched for a game to send a message, or Quinn isn't saying anything about it to him. Considering Laf isn't getting benched and playing on the first line, I am guessing the latter.

Coaching matters

 

[duhmetreE]

Anderson has 1 point and is a -6 in 11 games with the Kings. Kakko looks terrific this year. Kravtsov took his ball and went home because the mean people shipped him off to Hartford. And Laff is struggling 18 games into his NHL career. What pattern??

You said it yourself. Kakko looks good now. So, it's not the physcial talent of the player being the issue.

Kakko, Lias, Kravtsov, Chytil and now Laf. At what point do you think it's 'fair' to look at the coach/system and question it?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Systems are certainly not able to be 'made too much about'

Theyre extremely important and vital to team success

They also affect confidence and, clearly, thats the issue with Alexis

What's so different about the Rangers offensive system than Tampa's or Ottawa's?