Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière: Part II

[aufheben]

That’s how it feels. But there has to be a reason. And it’s odd that our D have good rookie years but not any forwards.

Maybe, but not necessarily (unless you consider randomness a “reason”).

It’s totally possible that our forwards struggle and our defensemen hit the ground running just by pure chance. It’s also possible that there’s a direct tangible reason for it, but, hockey is a chaotic sport. It could be individual styles of play, age, physical maturity, confidence, skill, anything.

I will say that Lafreniere absolutely needs to be shooting more. Other than that...I don’t really see red flags.

 

[Machinehead]

Do people still think it was a good idea not to let him go to the WJC? I got slammed for saying he should go lol

To me, this is a kid that doesn't get playing in the NHL. Not yet.

Bodying other children who couldn't keep up with him last year will only exacerbate the problem.

I think he's one of those players who fits the AHL perfectly and is prevented by the rules from being there. He's not the first.

 

[LokiDog]

To play like Panarin or Kane they need to be on Panarin/Kane level. They're not so far. Both Kakko and Laf looked to me like they're not up to speed of NHL yet, in terms of pure hockey sense. Last year Kakko I mean. This year Kakko was way better. Laf has similar problems although it wasn't what I thought of him in his first game. Where did all those creativity and good passes disappear I wonder.

That’s not really what I was getting at. How about RNH or Yakupov, who both blew away Laf/Kakko’s rookie performance? I get they both LOOK worse and less ready. Why is that? Did we just luck into the two worst #1 and #2 overall picks in the past 20 years? I don’t know how Quinn coaches them and I get that you want them to learn to be responsible players, but if Quinn is coaching them to play Brett Howden hockey and not to go and play like a #1 OA talent, that’s a problem. When Kane or RNH or Yakupov or Hughes even came into the league at 18, where they coached to play safe, scared, Howden style hockey? Or were they given reign to play like a talented play driver? Again, I don’t know HOW Quinn coaches them, but if he’s over emphasizing safe, plug hockey, coming down hard on them for mistakes, coming down on them any time they try to flash some skill, that could be a problem.

 

[Machinehead]

Maybe, but not necessarily (unless you consider randomness a “reason”).

It’s totally possible that our forwards struggle and our defensemen hit the ground running just by pure chance. It’s also possible that there’s a direct tangible reason for it, but, hockey is a chaotic sport. It could be individual styles of play, age, physical maturity, confidence, skill, anything.

I will say that Lafreniere absolutely needs to be shooting more. Other than that...I don’t really see red flags.

I agree that I don't see any red flags but I also haven't seen anything, except maybe his finish against the Caps, that indicates the level of talent we know he has.

I could have told you the same thing about Kakko last year word for word. That leads me to believe that maybe it's coaching.

And maybe it isn't, but here's the other thing: I don't care about David Quinn at all. I would fire him just to see if it works like turning the tv off and turning it on again to see if it fixes the picture. What would we have lost?

 

[KotBegemot]

That’s not really what I was getting at. How about RNH or Yakupov, who both blew away Laf/Kakko’s rookie performance? I get they both LOOK worse and less ready. Why is that? Did we just luck into the two worst #1 and #2 overall picks in the past 20 years? I don’t know how Quinn coaches them and I get that you want them to learn to be responsible players, but if Quinn is coaching them to play Brett Howden hockey and not to go and play like a #1 OA talent, that’s a problem. When Kane or RNH or Yakupov or Hughes even came into the league at 18, where they coached to play safe, scared, Howden style hockey? Or were they given reign to play like a talented play driver? Again, I don’t know HOW Quinn coaches them, but if he’s over emphasizing safe, plug hockey, coming down hard on them for mistakes, coming down on them any time they try to flash some skill, that could be a problem.

Nah, I get you and agree, they're playing now like they're some AHL grinders and that's not what I was waiting from them. But they also didn't show me this raw offensive talent that overcomes all this system structure bs. Just like Svechnikov did in his first year when he was playing on the 4th line under Brind'Amour or even on WJC (also in the 4th line) under Bragin. Or Stutzle (sorry for mentioning here this name again, I know it's probably annoying), you can just see this raw talent when he's on ice.

but here's the other thing: I don't care about David Quinn at all. I would fire him just to see if it works like turning the tv off and turning it on again to see if it fixes the picture. What would we have lost?

Honestly, this. I feel like team is just wasting time with him. Like it's obvious that one day (and pretty soon) he'll be fired because it doesn't look like his way is going anywhere positive. So what's the point in waiting for something.

 

[xsniper11x]

Maybe Laf, like many products of the Q, just isn’t NHL ready? I know he’s an elite talent, but very few successfully make that jump (Huberdeau and Couterier took a long time to develop) and those that looked good out of the gate (NMac, Hischier) regressed the following years. And Hischier also got to play with Hall during his MVP year.

He’s obviously talented, but what I see is a kid who previously could sleepwalk thru a game and put up 2-3pts, now trying to work through a level of adversity he hasn’t faced in a long time (if ever?). He’s just unsure of himself, but he’ll adjust. This is something kids coming from tougher leagues, especially college (Fox and Miller) are better able to deal with.

 

[LokiDog]

To me, this is a kid that doesn't get playing in the NHL. Not yet.

Bodying other children who couldn't keep up with him last year will only exacerbate the problem.

I think he's one of those players who fits the AHL perfectly and is prevented by the rules from being there. He's not the first.

He’d be the first 1OA to be sent down in most people on here’s lifetimes.

 

[LokiDog]

I do think that most 1 OAs come into the league on pretty shallow, abysmal teams and get to play 12 minutes at EV and 3-4 on the PP each night, and really aren’t raked over the coals or benched for rookie mistakes. They’re told to be comfortable playing their game and not beat themselves up and they figure out how to translate their offense to the NHL first and then learn the defensive side of the game over time. Some don’t even learn the defensive side well, but no one complains - Ovie, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc. No one would ever confuse them for a Selke candidate but the defensive warts and risky play are deemed worth it because of the offensive talent they possess, which is why they’re given mostly free reign to develop that side of their game first and then try to round out the rest of their game later.

In my opinion as an observer, which I whole heartedly admit is just that, I think Quinn tries to do the exact opposite. The team isn’t great, but it has better depth (when healthy) and was a better team so far during his tenure than most teams who draft 1/2 OA. I also think he feels pressure to have a winning team since this is his first NHL gig, regardless of knowing we’re rebuilding. I think he tries to turn these kids into reliable, responsible two way players on day one, and the problem is they probably do need a few years before they’re mature enough to really do that, let alone do that while balancing it with being a productive, dangerous offensive player. If they were told to just worry about playing their game and translating their offense first, my opinion is they’d thrive much better, become more comfortable and at least get one part of their game (which coincidentally is the part that’s supposed to be their bread and butter anyway) clicking before they start worrying so much about being reliable and responsible 200 foot players. I think they’re being neutered to a degree.

I just can’t believe that the entire hockey world completely mis-scouted Lafreniere and he’s so far from being ready for NHL action. I imagine in Florida or Ottawa he would be putting up points, making rookie mistakes and the team would just live with those mistakes, try to shelter his EV minutes, give him tons of PP time with Barkov and Huberdeau and help him translate his offense (again, the main component of his game) while hoping the defensive warts iron out as he matures over the course of his ELC.

 

[Machinehead]

He’d be the first 1OA to be sent down in most people on here’s lifetimes.

True but a lot of those guys are in the same situation where they can't be.

 

[Crease]

@Loki Dog 74 I agree. Quinn believes deking and dangling are privileges only to be granted after you’ve mastered the art of defense.

 

[Tob]

I do think that most 1OAs come into the league on pretty shallow, abysmal teams and get to play 12 minutes at EV and 3-4 on the PP each night, and really aren’t raked over the coals or benched for rookie mistakes. They’re told to be comfortable playing their game and not beat themselves up and they figure out how to translate their offense to the NHL first and then learn the defensive side of the game over time. Some don’t even learn the defensive side well, but no one complains - Ovie, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc. No one would ever confuse them for a Selke candidate but the defensive warts and risky play are deemed worth it because of the offensive talent they possess, which is why they’re giving mostly free reign to develop that side of their game first and then try to round out the rest of their game later.

In my opinion as an observer, which I whole heartedly admit is just that, I think Quinn tries to do the exact opposite. The team isn’t great, but it has better depth (when healthy) and was a better team so far during his tenure than most teams who draft 1/2 OA. I think he tries to turn these kids into reliable, responsible two way players on day one, and the problem is they probably do need a few years before they’re mature enough to really do that, let alone do that while balancing it with being a productive, dangerous offensive player. If they were told to just worry about playing their game and translating their offense first, my opinion is they’d thrive much better, become more comfortable and at least get one part of their game (which coincidentally is the part that’s supposed to be their bread and butter anyway) clicking before they start worrying so much about being reliable and responsible 200 foot players. I think they’re being neutered to a degree.

I just can’t believe that the entire hockey world completely mis-scouted Lafreniere and he’s so far from being ready for NHL action. I imagine in Florida or Ottawa he would be putting up points, making rookie mistakes and the team would just live with those mistakes, try to shelter his EV minutes, give him tons of PP time with Barkov and Huberdeau and help him translate his offense (again, the main component of his game) while hoping the defensive warts iron out as he matures over the course of his ELC.

Well said. This is pretty much the summary of Quinn. Kaapo giving up trying to be creative last year because of Quinn's suffocating over coaching is what we've been seeing with every single young forward. Quinn is trying to create an entire team of Jesper Fasts.

 

[duhmetreE]

That’s how it feels. But there has to be a reason. And it’s odd that our D have good rookie years but not any forwards.

Our defenders have spent 2-3 years in College. Laf, Kakko and Chytil all made the jump after the draft. It's not really a valid comparison imo

Our offensive system also suffocates a lot of their strengths imo.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Maybe Laf, like many products of the Q, just isn’t NHL ready? I know he’s an elite talent, but very few successfully make that jump (Huberdeau and Couterier took a long time to develop) and those that looked good out of the gate (NMac, Hischier) regressed the following years. And Hischier also got to play with Hall during his MVP year.

He’s obviously talented, but what I see is a kid who previously could sleepwalk thru a game and put up 2-3pts, now trying to work through a level of adversity he hasn’t faced in a long time (if ever?). He’s just unsure of himself, but he’ll adjust. This is something kids coming from tougher leagues, especially college (Fox and Miller) are better able to deal with.

He's the first overall pick. He's not 8th overall like Couturier or even 3rd overall like Huberdeau. I really find it hard to believe he wasn't NHL ready, it's not like it's a Jack Hughes situation where he was physically underdeveloped. As far as Mackinnon and Hischier, Hischier has basically been the same player since he came into the league, and Mackinnon was on a dysfunctional team in Colorado who couldn't get out of it's own way, but even then he still produced at a 1st line rate. And he also shot at a 5.7% rate in 15-16 and 16-17 which is abysmal and wasn't going to continue.

 

[Synergy27]

I do think that most 1OAs come into the league on pretty shallow, abysmal teams and get to play 12 minutes at EV and 3-4 on the PP each night, and really aren’t raked over the coals or benched for rookie mistakes. They’re told to be comfortable playing their game and not beat themselves up and they figure out how to translate their offense to the NHL first and then learn the defensive side of the game over time. Some don’t even learn the defensive side well, but no one complains - Ovie, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc. No one would ever confuse them for a Selke candidate but the defensive warts and risky play are deemed worth it because of the offensive talent they possess, which is why they’re giving mostly free reign to develop that side of their game first and then try to round out the rest of their game later.

In my opinion as an observer, which I whole heartedly admit is just that, I think Quinn tries to do the exact opposite. The team isn’t great, but it has better depth (when healthy) and was a better team so far during his tenure than most teams who draft 1/2 OA. I think he tries to turn these kids into reliable, responsible two way players on day one, and the problem is they probably do need a few years before they’re mature enough to really do that, let alone do that while balancing it with being a productive, dangerous offensive player. If they were told to just worry about playing their game and translating their offense first, my opinion is they’d thrive much better, become more comfortable and at least get one part of their game (which coincidentally is the part that’s supposed to be their bread and butter anyway) clicking before they start worrying so much about being reliable and responsible 200 foot players. I think they’re being neutered to a degree.

I just can’t believe that the entire hockey world completely mis-scouted Lafreniere and he’s so far from being ready for NHL action. I imagine in Florida or Ottawa he would be putting up points, making rookie mistakes and the team would just live with those mistakes, try to shelter his EV minutes, give him tons of PP time with Barkov and Huberdeau and help him translate his offense (again, the main component of his game) while hoping the defensive warts iron out as he matures over the course of his ELC.

It’s got to be this. This is a very good way to look at it.

There are many here that are “not worried” and see nothing wrong with how he’s played. They think he’s had bad puck luck and that’s making stats watchers think he’s doing worse than he actually is.

The simple truth is that he’s not done anything on the ice that you’d expect from a highly touted 1OA. He’s made a couple of normal plays that didn’t convert but nothing wow worthy or particularly indicative of his high end skill.

That skill didn’t disappear because he hasn’t played in months. It’s still in there. He’s not displaying it for a reason.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I do think that most 1 OAs come into the league on pretty shallow, abysmal teams and get to play 12 minutes at EV and 3-4 on the PP each night, and really aren’t raked over the coals or benched for rookie mistakes. They’re told to be comfortable playing their game and not beat themselves up and they figure out how to translate their offense to the NHL first and then learn the defensive side of the game over time. Some don’t even learn the defensive side well, but no one complains - Ovie, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc. No one would ever confuse them for a Selke candidate but the defensive warts and risky play are deemed worth it because of the offensive talent they possess, which is why they’re given mostly free reign to develop that side of their game first and then try to round out the rest of their game later.

In my opinion as an observer, which I whole heartedly admit is just that, I think Quinn tries to do the exact opposite. The team isn’t great, but it has better depth (when healthy) and was a better team so far during his tenure than most teams who draft 1/2 OA. I think he tries to turn these kids into reliable, responsible two way players on day one, and the problem is they probably do need a few years before they’re mature enough to really do that, let alone do that while balancing it with being a productive, dangerous offensive player. If they were told to just worry about playing their game and translating their offense first, my opinion is they’d thrive much better, become more comfortable and at least get one part of their game (which coincidentally is the part that’s supposed to be their bread and butter anyway) clicking before they start worrying so much about being reliable and responsible 200 foot players. I think they’re being neutered to a degree.

I just can’t believe that the entire hockey world completely mis-scouted Lafreniere and he’s so far from being ready for NHL action. I imagine in Florida or Ottawa he would be putting up points, making rookie mistakes and the team would just live with those mistakes, try to shelter his EV minutes, give him tons of PP time with Barkov and Huberdeau and help him translate his offense (again, the main component of his game) while hoping the defensive warts iron out as he matures over the course of his ELC.

I hope this is the case, because it can be solved fairly simply. Well thought out and does make sense though.

 

[LokiDog]

Our defenders have spent 2-3 years in College. Laf, Kakko and Chytil all made the jump after the draft. It's not really a valid comparison imo

Our offensive system also suffocates a lot of their strengths imo.

I agree. I also think that IF Quinn’s directions to young players are “I want you playing safe, limiting mistakes, taking care of your own end” those directions are going to set up defenseman for success while neutering offensive players. You want your players to be responsible, sure. But Kreider and Buch are becoming PKers how far into their careers? Did we draft Laf to be a safe, 50 point Bergeron-lite or to be a dynamic Mackinnon-lite (or something like that)? Is Kakko coveted as the next Brendan Saad or something like that, or Marian Hossa? By the way, Hossa was a great two way player in the second half of his career, but not when he entered the league. Offensive stars tend to develop that part of their game later, if they develop it at all. They almost never start off playing defensive hockey and then bring the offense around. Quinn has it backwards, if that’s how he’s doing it.

 

[Machinehead]

@Loki Dog 74 I agree. Quinn believes deking and dangling are privileges only to be granted after you’ve mastered the art of defense.

And if we were a great defensive team that's in your face like the Torts years, I'd be more into it. We're not that at all.

Quinn wants that and doesn't know how to coach it.

He's like the "I hate goals and talent" mentally of Torts and the "lol what do we even do?" tactics of AV had a Frankencoach.

 

[Machinehead]

I was hoping we'd get a mix between Torts' clear structure and identity, and AV's...well, actually thinking goals are important, but that didn't go as I had hoped.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

I think he also still has some lazy tendencies from the juniors. Theres plays where it seems he doesn't give 100% effort or isn't moving around enough. Guess it happens when you dominate in Juniors for how long as he did. I remember early last year there were rumors he might go play in Europe for his draft year and looking back that might have been the best move he could have made. Should all be things he learn how to not do in due time

 

[Machinehead]

I think he also still has some lazy tendencies from the juniors. Theres plays where it seems he doesn't give 100% effort or isn't moving around enough. Guess it happens when you dominate in Juniors for how long as he did. I remember early last year there were rumors he might go play in Europe for his draft year and looking back that might have been the best move he could have made. Should all be things he learn how to not do in due time

Complete level was touted as one of his top assets and we definitely haven't seen that. Seems like a lack of confidence mixed with basically having a year off in junior followed by an actual year off with covid. I'm a broken record here but the coach should be on top of that.

Last night he collided with somebody and then laid on top of him doing that scumbag "oopsies I can't get up" move that Chara loves and I was like "yes, Laf!" so hopefully that edge will start to show more.

 

[xsniper11x]

I think he also still has some lazy tendencies from the juniors. Theres plays where it seems he doesn't give 100% effort or isn't moving around enough. Guess it happens when you dominate in Juniors for how long as he did. I remember early last year there were rumors he might go play in Europe for his draft year and looking back that might have been the best move he could have made. Should all be things he learn how to not do in due time

Exactly. Tendencies that surface due to lack of adversity. Matthews came out flying and he played against men in Switzerland. Stuetzle looks good and played against men in Germany. Now these aren’t top leagues, but those two saw more adversity playing against bigger, stronger opponents that prepared them for the rigors of the NHL.

I don’t think it’s any one thing for Laf. He came out rusty due to no camp or preseason, on a team with too much depth to hand him a spot, lacking a support system due our struggling offense and is now doubting himself more than he should cause he hasn’t faced this level of adversity in a long time. Add it all up and you get an outlier 1OA year. It doesn’t mean Laf has an issue, it just means it’ll take longer for him to work through it.

 

[Synergy27]

Complete level was touted as one of his top assets and we definitely haven't seen that. Seems like a lack of confidence mixed with basically having a year off in junior followed by an actual year off with covid. I'm a broken record here but the coach should be on top of that.

Last night he collided with somebody and then laid on top of him doing that scumbag "oopsies I can't get up" move that Chara loves and I was like "yes, Laf!" so hopefully that edge will start to show more.

If I recall correctly, that play happened against Nolan Patrick. I also recall him getting into it pretty good with Noah Dobson. I assume he knows Noah from the Q - doubt he ever crossed paths with Patrick. But it gave me the feeling that he only has confidence to go at his peers and he’s still being deferential to the “men”. That mindset needs to stop like yesterday. This kid needs a good dose of savior of Quebec swagger.

 

[will1066]

Self fulfilling prophecy. Comes into a supposedly stacked team and not counted on to be Da Man. Coach decides to ease him in very slowly and methodically. Given spot minutes with superstars, immediately plays in their deference, doesn't even want to handle the puck or make plays while in Panarin's orbit. Therefore floats around. Hopes superstar passes the puck back to him. Doesn't happen often or happens at inopportune times because skating in different time zone compared with others. Becomes confused why things aren't happening like they used to in QMJHL. Coach gets annoyed. Starts questioning self. Loses confidence. Loses more ice time.

I swear one day when he is putting up PPG with the Nashville Predators and going deep into the postseason, Pierre will be saying "Lafreniere is not a kid anymore. He's a big time superstar now and the face of the Nashville franchise. But he told me the biggest influence on his game and his career was David Quinn back when he was a rookie as a New York Ranger. He said learning to play defense, learning how to handle adversity and become a man all goes back to his first NHL coach."

 

[haveandare]

I do think that most 1 OAs come into the league on pretty shallow, abysmal teams and get to play 12 minutes at EV and 3-4 on the PP each night, and really aren’t raked over the coals or benched for rookie mistakes. They’re told to be comfortable playing their game and not beat themselves up and they figure out how to translate their offense to the NHL first and then learn the defensive side of the game over time. Some don’t even learn the defensive side well, but no one complains - Ovie, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc. No one would ever confuse them for a Selke candidate but the defensive warts and risky play are deemed worth it because of the offensive talent they possess, which is why they’re given mostly free reign to develop that side of their game first and then try to round out the rest of their game later.

In my opinion as an observer, which I whole heartedly admit is just that, I think Quinn tries to do the exact opposite. The team isn’t great, but it has better depth (when healthy) and was a better team so far during his tenure than most teams who draft 1/2 OA. I also think he feels pressure to have a winning team since this is his first NHL gig, regardless of knowing we’re rebuilding. I think he tries to turn these kids into reliable, responsible two way players on day one, and the problem is they probably do need a few years before they’re mature enough to really do that, let alone do that while balancing it with being a productive, dangerous offensive player. If they were told to just worry about playing their game and translating their offense first, my opinion is they’d thrive much better, become more comfortable and at least get one part of their game (which coincidentally is the part that’s supposed to be their bread and butter anyway) clicking before they start worrying so much about being reliable and responsible 200 foot players. I think they’re being neutered to a degree.

I just can’t believe that the entire hockey world completely mis-scouted Lafreniere and he’s so far from being ready for NHL action. I imagine in Florida or Ottawa he would be putting up points, making rookie mistakes and the team would just live with those mistakes, try to shelter his EV minutes, give him tons of PP time with Barkov and Huberdeau and help him translate his offense (again, the main component of his game) while hoping the defensive warts iron out as he matures over the course of his ELC.

I would really prefer this be the case because it’d mean changing coaches will solve it right away.

Imo, if he was capable of game breaking offensive skill and is just being held back by coaching, I suspect we’d have seen a lot more evidence of that skill so far.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Since there’s fans allowed now will Laf’s parents be there?