Adam Larsson..

[JimEIV]

But I'm a big Severson fan. Because he is playing so well, so early in his career, I do not then attack Larsson.

I think Merrill's "bad" play over the past year and half has been over played, but I think when comparing him to Lar's, even though Lar's has played more games in the NHL, Merrill is the older player and was drafted a year earlier. So when comparing the beginnings of each's career we have to factor Lar's turning 19 during his rookie career while Merrill turned 22 his rookie season.

That maturity level certainly makes a difference, but I don't think that age alone is as important as real NHL game expirience. You look at someone like Andy Greene who was around 24 years old when he eventually broke into the league and he still required 150 games of seasoning before he became a reliable everyday player.

But beyond that there should be a difference in readiness from a #4 overall vs a player taken in later rounds. The talent alone should be able to bridge some of the immaturity.... Did you watch Ekblad last season? Obviously that is a very special player but I do think you should be expecting some level of this from a very high pick.

 

[JimEIV]

Why do we have to discredit one player to build a case for another?

I don't believe that is what is being done at all.

From my perspective we are trying to find/guess what the cieling is for 3 players at very different stages of development.

 

[Balance]

That maturity level certainly makes a difference, but I don't think that age alone is as important as real NHL game expirience. You look at someone like Andy Greene who was around 24 years old when he eventually broke into the league and he still required 150 games of seasoning before he became a reliable everyday player.

But beyond that there should be a difference in readiness from a #4 overall vs a player taken in later rounds. The talent alone should be able to bridge some of the immaturity.... Did you watch Ekblad last season? Obviously that is a very special player but I do think you should be expecting some level of this from a very high pick.

For the best defenseman of a draft, Larsson is disappointing for his stage of development.

Larsson has some aspects about him that are elite like his decision making ability. However, he is weak physically and alright offensively. He isn't ready to anchor a defense. Time will tell for Larsson, but he's been in the league long enough to develop fully.

I really like aspects of Larsson's game, they are impressive. I wouldn't trade Larsson unless it was for someone great offensively, but man if he just improved in those other aspects he would be a top 10 dman in the league.

 

[devilsblood]

Given Lars entered the league 2.5 years younger then Merrill that shows he was more NHL ready.

And I think what Lars has shown over the past year is that his strength currently is as a in your own zone d-man, he plays physical, he moves the puck well out of the zone, and coach has played him to that strength.

And while that does hide some of his flaws as a defender handling speedy players on the rush, it also limits his offensive oppurtunities.

So I admit the handling of Lar's minutes is a double edge sword.

Conversely we have seen Sev's get a lot more offensive op's while not needing to handle the tough defensive assignments. Again plays to his strengths, and while I wouldn't call it a weakness per se, he is not as strong as Lars in the defensive zone.

 

[devilsblood]

For the best defenseman of a draft, Larsson is disappointing for his stage of development.

Larsson has some aspects about him that are elite like his decision making ability. However, he is weak physically and alright offensively. He isn't ready to anchor a defense. Time will tell for Larsson, but he's been in the league long enough to develop fully.

I really like aspects of Larsson's game, they are impressive. I wouldn't trade Larsson unless it was for someone great offensively, but man if he just improved in those other aspects he would be a top 10 dman in the league.

I completely disagree with the idea that Lars is weak physically. I think his physicality is a strength, I think his puck skills and vision are good also, as is his decision making as you say.

His skating would be the weakness. He's 23, how much he can improve in this regard imo will dictate just how good a player he can become.

 

[Bleedred]

Given Lars entered the league 2.5 years younger then Merrill that shows he was more NHL ready.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Merrill was still in college and didn't turn pro until age 21, while Larsson came to North America at age 18 right after he was drafted.

 

[Oneiro]

They're all improving steadily.

Still, I don't think Larsson's IQ or vision is what I was expecting. Only now is he unlearning those poor reads he routinely made in the neutral zone. And to be honest, I think he takes the easy route far too often when he's carrying it into the o-zone and dumping it in. I expect more creativity and determination from a player drafted that high. However, I think it will come with time.

But if there's one thing I absolutely agree with Jim on is that Severson has had the most encouraging development curve of any defenseman we've ever drafted. And it is very odd to see how tempered most Devils fans are when they talk about this kid. People talk about his production from last year dropping off, but that's irrelevant. Production from a young D is nice, but no, it's not the main thing to look for.

The type of mistakes Severson makes are indeed self-inflicted. But they're the kind of mistakes that happen when someone has the confidence to actually TRY something that might work. Unlike Larsson or Merrill, who must start out with SAFE-SAFE-SAFE hockey until they build confidence to create. If we're talking about grasping the basics, Severson is far more along than any other young d we have (including Moore). Hence his willingness to overcomplicate things at times.

As these guys get older, they'll execute more and at a higher level. We're just seeing how the sausage is made right now.

 

[devilsblood]

That maturity level certainly makes a difference, but I don't think that age alone is as important as real NHL game expirience. You look at someone like Andy Greene who was around 24 years old when he eventually broke into the league and he still required 150 games of seasoning before he became a reliable everyday player.

But beyond that there should be a difference in readiness from a #4 overall vs a player taken in later rounds. The talent alone should be able to bridge some of the immaturity.... Did you watch Ekblad last season? Obviously that is a very special player but I do think you should be expecting some level of this from a very high pick.

You have to factor them all in.

An Ekblad kind of blows the doors off both, he was very good at a young age and with no NHL experience. But as you say, special case. And a great pick by Florida. I wouldn't call Lars a great pick at this point, but I'll argue strongly against the "huge disappointment" idea.

 

[JimEIV]

Given Lars entered the league 2.5 years younger then Merrill that shows he was more NHL ready.

And I think what Lars has shown over the past year is that his strength currently is as a in your own zone d-man, he plays physical, he moves the puck well out of the zone, and coach has played him to that strength.

And while that does hide some of his flaws as a defender handling speedy players on the rush, it also limits his offensive oppurtunities.

So I admit the handling of Lar's minutes is a double edge sword.

Conversely we have seen Sev's get a lot more offensive op's while not needing to handle the tough defensive assignments. Again plays to his strengths, and while I wouldn't call it a weakness per se, he is not as strong as Lars in the defensive zone.

Yet.
And at 88 games into career he shouldn't be compare to a 230 game player.

But you almost make it sound like Merrill didn't get to the NHL until he was 21 years old because of talent...Merrill chose the NCAA route and that is always a different timetable.

Here the thing though, Larsson did very little with his early start. He probably showed more that he didn't belong in the league during that time.

 

[GDDevils*]

There are some terrible projections and assumptions being made in this thread.

Larsson is already at what Merrill's ceiling, at a younger age no less.

Severson had a fantastic start to his career, but has been much less impressive since his injury last season. Hopefully he can pull it together and return to his early rookie form.

At this point in all of their careers Larsson is the best of the 3. I haven't seen anything recently from Merril or Severson that would lead me to believe that will change any time soon.

 

[JimEIV]

There are some terrible projections and assumptions being made in this thread.

Larsson is already at what Merrill's ceiling, at a younger age no less.

Severson had a fantastic start to his career, but has been much less impressive since his injury last season. Hopefully he can pull it together and return to his early rookie form.

At this point in all of their careers Larsson is the best of the 3. I haven't seen anything recently from Merril or Severson that would lead me to believe that will change any time soon.

The entire point is they are NOT at the same point of their careers. Not even close.

 

[GDDevils*]

The entire point is they are NOT at the same point of their careers. Not even close.

That's great. Merril may not have started when Larsson did but he's still older. He doesn't have the luxury of time. He came out of the NCAA and should have been closer to a finished product. He most likely will not be better than Larsson.

You've spent the last 2-3 years blasting Larsson for the same mistakes Severson makes now without a peep. You have your favorites, it's obvious to everyone. But your ability to project players is suspect at best. Case in point: Larsson, Adam.

You can argue your games played nonsense and ignore usage by coaching staff all you want. The main point is Larsson turned out to be a way better player than you every gave him a chance to be. So pardon me if I disagree with your biased opinion on the future of our defense.

 

[JimEIV]

When Larsson was the age Merrill started his career, he was being sent down to the AHL....is this point lost on our fans?

 

[GDDevils*]

When Larsson was the age Merrill started his career, he was being sent down to the AHL....is this point lost on our fans?

Yeah.... Let's ignore DeBoar's obvious dislike for Adam. Maybe even pretend he got a fair shake? Then ignore the fact that he became one of our best defensemen the moment dumbass left. It was a miracle right?

 

[JimEIV]

At 21 Larsson was sent down in favor of Merrill

At just about 22 he was scratched from the start of the season in favor of Severson and even upon his return to the lineup he didn't look good until the Severson injury allowed him to paired with Greene.

That is how the first 4 years of his career went, now we are supposed to sing his praises for doing essentially what a 5th round pick, straight out of college did in Mark Fayne? Please.

If you are pleased with a good top 4 dman who essentially performing the exact same role as Fayne from a #4 overall, so be it. I'm not.

 

[Zippy316]

At 21 Larsson was sent down in favor of Merrill

At just about 22 he was scratched from the start of the season in favor of Severson and even upon his return to the lineup he didn't look good until the Severson injury allowed him to paired with Greene.

That is how the first 4 years of his career went, now we are supposed to sing his praises for doing essentially what a 5th round pick, straight out of college did in Mark Fayne? Please.

If you are pleased with a good top 4 dman who essentially performing the exact same role as Fayne from a #4 overall, so be it. I'm not.

Larsson is far from a finished product though. I get your argument, but your bias of Larsson really clouds the way you view him. I think it is mostly due in part to you having incredibly high expectations of him as a #4 pick. At that time, we desperately needed a cornerstone D. The only other option is Hamilton and he's starting to go through the same struggles in Calgary we saw in Larsson once he was removed from Chara.

Larsson has had a lot of unluckiness with injuries and illnesses each time he was ready to take that next step. The Subban hit was one notable example. He started to look dominant on the PK before he got hit with the mumps in 2015-15 year. He came back from that and really settled in towards the end of DeBoer's tenure and flourished when Stevens gave him the chance.

Let's just be happy his career is finally trending upwards and not up and down. For the last year, he's consistently improved and has been very dependable. He's still only 23 so he's got plenty of room to develop still.

 

[GDDevils*]

At 21 Larsson was sent down in favor of Merrill

At just about 22 he was scratched from the start of the season in favor of Severson and even upon his return to the lineup he didn't look good until the Severson injury allowed him to paired with Greene.

That is how the first 4 years of his career went, now we are supposed to sing his praises for doing essentially what a 5th round pick, straight out of college did in Mark Fayne? Please.

If you are pleased with a good top 4 dman who essentially performing the exact same role as Fayne from a #4 overall, so be it. I'm not.

Who else should we have drafted? Dougie? He's garbage, was purely a product of playing with Chara. Who else was there? Who out of that draft has played better than him?

There was literally one other player in that draft I would have taken, without going WAY off board. And he went first overall. He was really the only choice.

He was handled poorly for much of his early years and has finally turned the corner. Yet people still want to nitpick every single game. It's infuriating to see fans so against one of our own player.

So yes, I am pleased with Larsson. He has been a very good player for us for much longer than most here will admit. Add to that his performance thus far this season, which has been fantastic, again despite what the vocal few here say. I'm more than pleased and hope all of our young players continue to progress into solid contributors for our teams future.

 

[GDDevils*]

At 21 Larsson was sent down in favor of Merrill.

Merrill has sat much of this season in favor of Gelinas. Does that mean Merrill is a disappointment?

 

[JimEIV]

Larsson is far from a finished product though. I get your argument, but your bias of Larsson really clouds the way you view him. I think it is mostly due in part to you having incredibly high expectations of him as a #4 pick. At that time, we desperately needed a cornerstone D. The only other option is Hamilton and he's starting to go through the same struggles in Calgary we saw in Larsson once he was removed from Chara.

Larsson has had a lot of unluckiness with injuries and illnesses each time he was ready to take that next step. The Subban hit was one notable example. He started to look dominant on the PK before he got hit with the mumps in 2015-15 year. He came back from that and really settled in towards the end of DeBoer's tenure and flourished when Stevens gave him the chance.

Let's just be happy his career is finally trending upwards and not up and down. For the last year, he's consistently improved and has been very dependable. He's still only 23 so he's got plenty of room to develop still.

I don't disagree with much of anything here but I do take exception with the "bias for Larsson" comment. There is no bias, I'm just saying what I see.

It's almost as if some want to revise history. This is a player on his 3rd contract and we've gotten 1 year of reliable play...Is that an over exaggeration? Is that not true? Is it overly critical?

Do you find any of this acceptable for a former #4 overall? Or do you think the draft position shouldn't even factor into the conversation?

What has Larsson's provided over about his last 70 or so games that a Greene/Fayne pairing didn't provide? What are we celebrating here?

 

[Scorcho]

Why do we have to discredit one player to build a case for another?

so much this.

 

[GDDevils*]

I don't disagree with much of anything here but I do take exception with the "bias for Larsson" comment. There is no bias, I'm just saying what I see.

It's almost as if some want to revise history. This is a player on his 3rd contract and we've gotten 1 year of reliable play...Is that an over exaggeration? Is that not true? Is it overly critical?

Do you find any of this acceptable for a former #4 overall? Or do you think the draft position shouldn't even factor into the conversation?

What has Larsson's provided over about his last 70 or so games that a Greene/Fayne pairing didn't provide? What are we celebrating here?

It's always been a bias with you. Go through your own post history. You've almost never said anything positive about Larsson. Add that to the fact that you were completely wrong about him for the last few years. Completely wrong about Merrill as well.

Excuse me for calling a spade a spade. You obviously have something against Larsson, and when it's not infuriating it's actually funny.

 

[JimEIV]

Merrill has sat much of this season in favor of Gelinas. Does that mean Merrill is a disappointment?

Means his development has hit a wall and it is time to slow down and reevaluate. It happens to many Dmen in there first couple of seasons.

It's a bit disconcerting when a rookie is a more viable option than a 4 year former #4 overall however.

 

[JimEIV]

It's always been a bias with you. Go through your own post history. You've almost never said anything positive about Larsson. Add that to the fact that you were completely wrong about him for the last few years. Completely wrong about Merrill as well.

Excuse me for calling a spade a spade. You obviously have something against Larsson, and when it's not infuriating it's actually funny.

I was NEVER wrong about Larsson from his sophomore season when things looked the bleakest I always said he would be a good top 4 defender but his skating would keep him from being a #1...I was spot on from day one with Larsson.


What have I been wrong about Merrill? I've always compared him to a Greene, Martin-lite type of defender with solid top 4 potential. He tracking exactly to that in my opinion.

 

[NJDevils17]

The pick at #4 was fine, there hasn't been anyone out of that draft who has wow'd that we would've taken instead. Hamilton is okay but I'd prefer Larsson still.

I don't think anyone is questioning the pick though, it's just disappointing Larsson hasn't become a force on defense that he was projected to be. Lidstrom comparisons were never quite achievable anyway and were unfair to him. Regardless, he is still a young player who has room left to develop. If his ceiling is now an "Andy Greene" sort of guy then I'm going to be disappointed but that's still a good thing.

On Severson - he hasn't kept up his pace from the beginning of last year but he doesn't look worse, for example, he had a ton of plays in the Ottawa game that were fantastic and showed his potential even though he isn't getting the points necessarily to show for it like last year. I could see him being a number one guy in the future.

 

[GDDevils*]

Means his development has hit a wall and it is time to slow down and reevaluate. It happens to many Dmen in there first couple of seasons.

It's a bit disconcerting when a rookie is a more viable option than a 4 year former #4 overall.

See, it's comments like this one that are funny. You keep railing on the same point ignoring anything that goes against your argument, then glossing over the same issue with your favorites.