Player Discussion Adam Fox

I think you are highly overcomplicating the stats here. The first stat is literally points at 5v5 on a per minute basis. There's not some complex mathematical formula here. The second stat is literally just shot attempts for and against. Again, it's counting things that happened on the ice. There's no complex formula. If you want to argue xG is more of a black box with unknown inputs and weightings I won't disagree with you there but that's not the only stat that he's putting up great results in.

I think the burden of proof is the other direction here. Fox has put up great numbers for years. He still is putting up great numbers. If you think his play is worse, why, because the results have not changed? If his skating is worse then why have the results not reflected that? Leaguewide scoring is down this year so it's not that everyone is scoring more.
Lets take my opinion out of this. This was from Vince's column the other day.

Fox was among the primary culprits, getting beat in countless board battles and foot races while struggling to create any offensive push.

Now I do give Fox a pass because I don't think he is playing this season at 100% but I think Fox would be the first to admit this hasn't been one of his better seasons. I do think he could bounce back and his high assist numbers in a down season are noteworthy. We as fans need to realize players are not robots. Injuries do matter. It sucks playing at less than 100% because your mind knows what you should be doing but the body response isn't quite there. Its frustrating.
 
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Lets take my opinion out of this. This was from Vince's column the other day.



Now I do give Fox a pass because I don't think he is playing this season at 100% but I think Fox would be the first to admit this hasn't been one of his better seasons. I do think he could bounce back and his high assist numbers in a down season are noteworthy. We as fans need to realize players are not robots. Injuries do matter. It sucks playing at less than 100% because your mind knows what you should be doing but the body response isn't quite there. Its frustrating.

All I want to know is why it's not reflected in the measured results.
 
All I want to know is why it's not reflected in the measured results.
The measured results are the team stinks and he's supposed to be one of their best, if not the best player. I get his advanced stats are good but sometimes advanced stats don't manifest in wins and that's what these guys are ultimately paid to do. He was a huge factor in two of Toronto's four goals last night.
 
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The measured results are the team stinks and he's supposed to be one of their best, if not the best player. I get his advanced stats are good but sometimes advanced stats don't manifest in wins and that's what these guys are ultimately paid to do. He was a huge factor in two of Toronto's four goals last night.

Points and goals are advanced?

As I said previously maybe your stats do not give you a complete picture.

Or is it possible that the things that you think are issues actually aren't? They are just noticeable but don't have any actual impact? Maybe a slight reduction in skating speed or agility doesn't actually make a difference? Maybe he hasn't been as good at one on one battles so he's purposely not fully exerting himself there and saving energy for other things so the net result is no change?

I don't know what the complete picture means. If the point of the game is to outscore your opponent, and he is doing that by a significant margin, why does it matter how he looks when doing it?
 
And how do you know that? There is a direct connection between his knee injury and his deteriorating play. These guys are professional athletes, their body is their life, their livelihood, and their pay. Sure, there are some guys you might say this about but I never consider Fox to be among them. These are not the days, long ago, when players might have rarely hit the gym or had all the trainers, strength trainers, personal trainers, therapists, nutritionists, etc., that teams and players have access to today. The Rangers have more staff than they have players. Fox is limited by his physical makeup, his frame, his genetics, from ever being a physical beast, the same with almost all smaller D (Z. Jones is another but w/o Fox's skills). I put "out of condition" with "country club atmosphere" together as something frustrated fans, in all sports, fall back on, whenever a team or individual players underperforms. If anything, when Fox was rehabbing his knee last summer, he might have concentrated on upper body strength. None of us knows, and that includes me, what is going on inside of players' heads, or privy to conversations between players and support staff or coaches. Speculate is what we do. We simply do not know the nature of Fox's knee issues or how much time he puts into the gym.
Its easy to get lazy once you've secured the large contract. Seems to be a theme with this team.
 
Points and goals are advanced?



Or is it possible that the things that you think are issues actually aren't? They are just noticeable but don't have any actual impact? Maybe a slight reduction in skating speed or agility doesn't actually make a difference? Maybe he hasn't been as good at one on one battles so he's purposely not fully exerting himself there and saving energy for other things so the net result is no change?

I don't know what the complete picture means. If the point of the game is to outscore your opponent, and he is doing that by a significant margin, why does it matter how he looks when doing it?
He's got 3 ES goals this season. For an offensive defenseman who's been shit defensively all season long, that's not enough. Especially for a #1 D. I'm not in the trade him camp but how can you look at the year he's had and be satisfied?
 
Its easy to get lazy once you've secured the large contract. Seems to be a theme with this team.
I don't believe, in general, that is true. It's an easy shibboleth to fall back on. It wasn't the case with Zib (it is to be expected that the last years of long contracts will not be productive due to aging, not less effort), or CK, or even Panarin. I don't think that was the case with Fox; he was fine until his apparent knee injury. It might be the case with Laf; the connection between the contract and his decreased production is evident. So, I reject your argument that it is a theme with the Rangers. Easy to pick out individual cases (I can't say that I am not incredibly disappointed and upset with Laf because I am) but as a blanket statement, nope.
 
I really respected my dad. He was a great guy and a huge sports fan. He told me one thing that I think both Fox bashers and supporters should keep in mind. "Never judge a guy in his first season coming off an injury".

He also said "Good pitching beats good hitting. The Yanks don't have a chance". That was back in 1985 or 1986. Wish I could hear him say it again. :)
 
He's got 3 ES goals this season. For an offensive defenseman who's been shit defensively all season long, that's not enough. Especially for a #1 D. I'm not in the trade him camp but how can you look at the year he's had and be satisfied?

Why does it make a difference if he's the one whose scoring the goals or if he's the one setting up the goals? He's been on the ice for 3.1 goals/60 this year which is the highest since his rookie year so it's not like him not scoring on his own has caused the team not to score with him on the ice. And yes, he has also been on the ice for the most goals against of his career but the net effect isn't much different since he's also scored more.
 
On a good team, hat missed pass by Fox on Toronto's 4th goal shouldn't even be that much of a problem. It is a huge problem for the Rangers, whose forwards don't play any defense. Kreider's coverage on Knies was embarrassing. Had he stayed with him, it's a blocked shot or deflected into the corner. The Rangers forwards are lazy. Torts would kill these guys.

The McMann goal at the end of the first was far more egregious. KAM loses his board battle then doesn't keep up with McMann on his way to the net. KAM is directly responsible for that goal. He's lost battles then failed to cover the front of the net on multiple goals against this season. KAM needs to go.
 
The proper take on Fox is he's a very good player who's been mediocre for the past ~Calendar year+, with injuries playing a factor, and the team going in the shitter too.

Saying he's a bad defenseman is lunacy. While not nearly as crazy but still dumb is using analytics to say he's been great this year and everything is fine, yadda yadda.

Well see how he fairs going forward with a long offseason. He'll really need to work on skating/fitness/shooting in offseason to get it back to the point where it's not as big a weakness as it is right now. Because right now he can't skate or shoot.

He's not part of the rotten crew in 93, 20, 16, 10 etc. you don't trade him for the hell of it. .
 
I don't believe, in general, that is true. It's an easy shibboleth to fall back on. It wasn't the case with Zib (it is to be expected that the last years of long contracts will not be productive due to aging, not less effort), or CK, or even Panarin. I don't think that was the case with Fox; he was fine until his apparent knee injury. It might be the case with Laf; the connection between the contract and his decreased production is evident. So, I reject your argument that it is a theme with the Rangers. Easy to pick out individual cases (I can't say that I am not incredibly disappointed and upset with Laf because I am) but as a blanket statement, nope.
Zib is in Year 3 of an 8 year deal and he already had a down year last year so it 100% applies to Zib. CK has been a one-dimensional (albeit very good at it) player for a number of years. He hasn't driven offense in years and lives off deflections and the occasional rush chance (largely on the PK). Panarin is Panarin, elite offensively and a major liability on defense. I think Laf and many of the younger players are a product of the environment. Why work hard as a young player when the vets are dogging it on a nightly basis while young players are stapled to the 3rd and 4th lines regardless of outcomes. While all teams miss on draft picks, I dont think I've seen a team completely whiff on 4 top 10 picks over a 3 year period with 2 of those picks being 1st and 2nd overall picks.

With all this what I'm trying to say is the Rangers have a significant culture problem with entited veterans they are tied into for many years.
 
I mean… I’ve said it before, but I don’t think it’s really about Fox at this point. The team like really legitimately and genuinely needs to be completely dismantled and Fox may have already played his best hockey, but almost certainly won’t still be playing his best hockey when this mess of a team is actually ready to compete again… so it isn’t really so much about what he’s accomplished and whether he is/isn’t elite so much as it’s a matter of what value he is to a team that’s going nowhere. Perrault and Cuylle being your best players under 25 is pretttttty abysmal. Kreider and Zib aren’t bringing back anything worthwhile. What would get us young assets to start a rebuild? I know. We won’t ever see a proper rebuild in NYC, and I know not all fans agree about needing one… but if you can get over whether or not you agree (not you personally) with the idea of trading Fox and instead look at it as whether or not you can see the merit in believing we need a full tear down rebuild (which even if it isn’t your preferred route, I imagine most can see as a 50/50 proposition) than it shouldn’t be too difficult to fathom why moving Fox becomes a discussion for some.
If you want to include Fox in just nuking the team because that's the timeline you're working on, I don't think that's an unfair take.

I think the unfair takes, which many are responding to when they post things like that, are people taking this guy who was never Hughes or Makar; and he wasn't Hughes or Makar when he was the best defensemen on the planet -which he was a couple of times- and now that the team is bad and people are in a pissy mood, they wanna suddenly be irate that the guy has flaws he always had.

And that's what it is. It's shit spewing rage posting. Adam Fox is 90% of the posts for the worst offenders. People are tired of it.

I think a lot of teams could use this guy's unique set of skills. For a team that's bad at pretty much everything, you're gonna see the areas where he comes up short. I got news for people, Quinn Hughes plays for a team that's just as big of a mess, and Cale Makar, God bless him, hasn't played a stretch of hockey in his pro career without being attached to a faster Mark Messier. No single player is going to solve deep problems in the institution.

Maybe that's reason to trade him! All I'm saying is approaching that discussion in good faith is not the same as the trolling that's been going on.
 
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