Speculation: Acq./Rost. Bldg./Cap/Lines etc. Part LXXVIII (It's Working! Let's Fix It.)

[Holtbyisms]

No reason you couldn't get a good 2RD in the Carlson deal, plus substantial futures. Use part of those futures to help move Orpik. Either target a cheaper 3LD in the Orpik deal or get one in free agency.

So the Carlson and Orpik trades could reasonably yield serviceable replacements. Schmidt and the new 3LD can fight it out, and hopefully Bowey can make the jump.

It doesn't have to cost us a playoff spot. We'd absolutely take a significant backwards step defensively, but it would help us keep our offense intact (and hopefully progressing), and we've got outstanding goaltending to help shore it up.

If not, we'll still have a bunch of the speedy, skilled wingers, and can swap one for D if we need more help.

This year is an all-in year. Next year will be more about being realistic about the future. Those speedy, skilled wingers are all performing and/or showing great potential, and they're all affordable. Carlson is our 2RD who we'll soon have to pay like a #1 guy, and he's WAY more valuable in a trade than any of those wings.

I think it's the wiser move, both in the near and distant future. Your mileage may vary.

So moving forward and trying to win means downgrade from 1RD to 2RD and some draft picks that come of age when our franchise players are over the hill? I love you all so very much as my fellow caps brethren but I just don't even know what to say sometimes. Thank the hockey gods he fan base isn't in charge. (unless your gm is Benning)

 

[Jags]

This so much....


I mean the Niskanen to Carlson comparison is way out there. You're talking about a second pairing guy on a good team vs a top pairing guy on a good team. 20-30 point guy vs a 50-60 point guy. Name me a #1 who puts up 20-30 points a year? Huge gap between the two IMO. Could we survive with Niskanen as the #1 long term, perhaps but is it a downgrade? Definitely.

I don't entirely disagree. But the simple fact of the matter is that we won't be able to afford to keep both, and Niskanen has a movement clause. Everyone wants to keep every good player they have, but that's the tough part of playing in a league with a meaningful salary cap.

I love Carlson and agree that we'd miss him mightily, but he's not a stud #1 worth 7+ million, and he will ABSOLUTELY get that somewhere in free agency.

 

[Jags]

So moving forward and trying to win means downgrade from 1RD to 2RD and some draft picks that come of age when our franchise players are over the hill?

Dude, you don't have to stand pat with what you trade him for. You move him for a 2RD and substantial futures because you won't be able to afford anything else next year. No cap room. We're taking hits next year regardless, so we may as well be strategic about it and take one that will actually yield us a colossal reward.

You can say, "Well we might as well be the ones to pay him" about EVERYONE, but you quickly run out of cap room that way.

IF you can find a way to move Orpik and are okay letting Alzner and Oshie walk, then sure, you can keep Carlson. And that might be the better move.

But you can still see how that equals us taking a big hit next year, right? And you can still see that we'd have to PAY to move Orpik and lose Alzner and Oshie for NOTHING, right?

Moving Carlson can help stave off some of that, pay our RFAs, keep a key UFA, and help us move our worst contract less painfully.

Yes, he's a big loss, but there's a good chance we lose him anyway. We're likely up against the cap next year with all the raises we have to give, while still letting good players go. So how to do you propose we pay for Carlson's 75% raise along with everything else you want to keep?

Enlighten us.

 

[Holtbyisms]

Dude, you don't have to stand pat with what you trade him for. You move him for a 2RD and substantial futures because you won't be able to afford anything else next year. No cap room. We're taking hits next year regardless, so we may as well be strategic about it and take one that will actually yield us a colossal reward.

You can say, "Well we might as well be the ones to pay him" about EVERYONE, but you quickly run out of cap room that way.

IF you can find a way to move Orpik and are okay letting Alzner and Oshie walk, then sure, you can keep Carlson. And that might be the better move.

But you can still see how that equals us taking a big hit next year, right? And you can still see that we'd have to PAY to move Orpik and lose Alzner and Oshie for NOTHING, right?

Moving Carlson can help stave off some of that, pay our RFAs, keep a key UFA, and help us move our worst contract less painfully.

Yes, he's a big loss, but there's a good chance we lose him anyway. We're likely up against the cap next year with all the raises we have to give, while still letting good players go. So how to do you propose we pay for Carlson's 75% raise along with everything else you want to keep?

Enlighten us.

Carlson is making 4M. Him getting 7(that's on the high side of what he'll command), that's a 3M salary upgrade. How does that equate to moving Orpik 5.5M, losing Alzner 4-5M? and Oshie 6-7M? to keep him? Winnik is falling off the books at 2+ after this year and there's almost 0 chance JDub comes back at that salary especially with Vrana all but ready to take a top line spot.

If you need to move salary out to sign your top players moving someone like 90 is far easier to handle as an organization than losing your #1 defender. There's maybe 10 stud #1 guys in the NHL (if that) Carlson is the next tier below them in the 15-20 range. Pay the man. This feels like a conversation about Kirk Cousins to me.

Kuznetsov and Burakovsky aren't getting ridiculous raises. If Kuznetsov would have kept his pace up from last year before he went cold perhaps, but it ain't happening cause he's taken a step back despite his current scoring streak

Everyone's running around with their hair on fire and there are very simple solutions. Chances are we're gonna get out priced on Oshie either way. Somebody is going to throw 7 at him after the way he's performed in DC and under no circumstances can we afford that without trashing our team.

What you need to prepare yourself for is Vrana in for Oshie and a lesser FA signing to replace Williams. That's the most realistic scenario we're facing. Trading away your #1 defender to keep a top ling winger is stupidity. You move any and everything else you can before you move your #1 defender.

 

[BobRouse]

Fax:

We won't be as good next year.

Are there some cap/roster gymnastics we could do to minimize the damage? Sure. Easier said than done.

Regardless there will be damage and if we do too much to minimize next year then we will get hit in future years (Carlson free agency for example)

 

[OV Rocks]

Criticize him for being a whiner or call him a hero for demanding his team do better but LeBron James has a point. To come out and say "Get me a ****ing Playmaker cause I am getting old and want to win" is the mentality this team needs for the trade deadline. Go get the players you need to win no questions asked

 

[Stewie G]

We'll see how MOJO performs in the playoffs, but it's more about the cap and roster management.

MOJO's salary is a little over 4.5. We may be looking at a 2 million increase in Cap for teams for next season.

You have the following RFAs that are arbitration eligible:
-Kuznetsov currently makes 3
-Orlov 2.5
-Schmidt 800
-Grubauer 750
and you have Burakovsky 800 who's a RFA as well.

Williams and Winnik don't return that's collectively 5.5. I see that 5.5 pretty much addressing the RFA situation, even with one of those RFAs possibly going in the expansion draft.

You trade MOJO after the season, 2.5 of his 4.5 should be enough to sign Oshie for about 6.5 and the remaining cash along with the anticipated cap increase might be enough to bring Alzner back as well.

2017/18
Ovechkin - Backstrom - Oshie
Burakovsky - Kuznetsov - RW?
Vrana - Eller - Connolly
Sanford - Beagle - Wilson
vs.
Ovechkin - Backstrom - RW?
MOJO - Kuznetsov -Burakovsky
Vrana - Eller -Connolly
Sanford - Beagle - Wilson

That's fine. I was just disagreeing with this "He's still too soft and seems to benefit more from the hard work of others." In the past I'd have agreed with you, but these days I'd say his play is actually benefiting others more than the other way around quite a bit.

He's actually been 4th on the team in playoff points the last two seasons, but most of those have come on the PP and he does seem to go invisible for stretches. Like a lot of players, his playoff performance is likely to make a difference in whether they stay or go.

 

[BobRouse]

Criticize him for being a whiner or call him a hero for demanding his team do better but LeBron James has a point. To come out and say "Get me a ****ing Playmaker cause I am getting old and want to win" is the mentality this team needs for the trade deadline. Go get the players you need to win no questions asked

hahaha guy is a whining clown. Basically told half his teammates that they SUCK! Cooley and Kevin were SHREDDING him for doing that just this morning.

NBA is a different animal.

Do you see Tom Brady doing that? Nope. He just goes out there and dominates with whoever he has.

Did Jordan/Bird/Magic ever say that crud?? Did Gretzky ever do that?? NEVER! Not even Mario ever said something like that.

 

[Jags]

Carlson is making 4M. Him getting 7(that's on the high side of what he'll command), that's a 3M salary upgrade. How does that equate to moving Orpik 5.5M, losing Alzner 4-5M? and Oshie 6-7M? to keep him? Winnik is falling off the books at 2+ after this year and there's almost 0 chance JDub comes back at that salary especially with Vrana all but ready to take a top line spot.

Your numbers are awfully optimistic. Every rumor out there has Alzner wanting 6m. Moving Orpik is going to cost us, if we can find a taker at all, so we might be stuck with his hit. Oshie should be around 6m, and he'd be a huge loss with all he provides. Williams and Winnik don't save us much. Neither would letting Alzner walk.

And if Vrana and Burakovsky's productions idle and they top out at 15 goals, you think we wouldn't miss Williams and MoJo?

You talk about JC's importance to the power play, and you're right. But in losing Alzner, Oshie, and Winnik, you're not worried about our PK?

There's maybe 10 stud #1 guys in the NHL (if that) Carlson is the next tier below them in the 15-20 range.

He'll get 7m somewhere. In a world where Green got 6 and Alzner might well get 6, Carlson will get 7. Don't kid yourself.

Kuznetsov and Burakovsky aren't getting ridiculous raises.

Define ridiculous. Burakovsky will get at least 2. Kuznetsov we should lock up right now to avoid bridge escalation, like we did with Backstrom (who at 6.7 is a steal). Ottawa locked up Karlsson for 7 years at 6.5 per. Scheifele [email protected], MacKinnon [email protected], Tavares [email protected], JVR [email protected], and so on.

Doing a short-term bridge costs. Montreal nickel-and-dimed Subban for two years, and because he broke out during that time, his next deal cost them 8 years at 9m. Compare that to Karlsson's 2 Norris Trophies, making 6.5.

The smart thing to do is to pay Kuznetsov now to avoid a Subban-type situation down the road, reaching a point where he can leverage free agency.

So yeah, Kuznetsov's getting paid.

Chances are we're gonna get out priced on Oshie either way.

Doesn't have to be that way if we can find the space, and Oshie's pricetag could be negotiated down. Look at the guys that got 6m last year. Oshie is older and doesn't have the power-forward size of Lucic or Okposo. Oshie never had 5 seasons of 25 goals and 60+ points (2 years over 30 goals and 70 points) that Eriksson did. And Andrew Ladd's play this year is a cautionary tale for giving everyone 6m willy-nilly.

If Oshie likes it in DC and gets the term he's looking for, he could come in under 6m to stay a key part of a very competitive team. Signing him will cost us though -- we'd have to find the money somewhere.

Vrana in for Oshie

Sure. So Vrana is going to play on PP1 and our PK and 4v4 and 3v3, and learn how to be the tough, crafty, remarkably consistent point-producer Oshie is. Good luck with that.

a lesser FA signing to replace Williams

First of all, with what money? And which "lesser FA signing" replaces the 29-goal pace Williams is on now? That sound cheap to you?

Best case, Burakovsky and Vrana are both in the top 6 and you'll need to find a new 3W cheap. So you're replacing 50+ goals with maybe 30 and losing a TON of grit, experience, and versatility, and you STILL have a spot to fill.

Trading away your #1 defender to keep a top ling winger is stupidity

The cuts you'll make to keep him are just as painful. And who's to say you don't trade him to a low-end team for a package that includes a 1st with a decent shot of being a high pick? Could end up with Rasmus Dahlin or whoever else emerges by then. 2018 is definitely going to be a better draft than 2017. Or maybe you take one of those wingers you're talking about and package them with both #1s to get the stud D you want.

And remember, that pick is just PART of what you'd get for Carlson.

I'm not convinced moving him is the best idea, either, but you have to admit that it opens up countless options for us. As good as he is, he's not irreplaceable. I get that you don't like trading for futures or being patient, but if you want to keep this growing core together, at some point you'll have to draft some guys and allow for some real turnover.

 

[OV Rocks]

hahaha guy is a whining clown. Basically told half his teammates that they SUCK! Cooley and Kevin were SHREDDING him for doing that just this morning.

NBA is a different animal.

Do you see Tom Brady doing that? Nope. He just goes out there and dominates with whoever he has.

Did Jordan/Bird/Magic ever say that crud?? Did Gretzky ever do that?? NEVER! Not even Mario ever said something like that.

In his defense he is 32 and he knows his chances to dominate and win in the league is short, maybe 2-3 more years max. Tom Brady doesn't need to do that because his coach is so good and Jordan/Bird Magic/Gretzky/Mario didn't play in a time of social media and every word an athlete say being made available. There isn't a doubt in my mind that all of those guys said at one point we need better players it just didn't get publicized because of the time. How can you hate on his attitude that is win above everything else

 

[Revelation]

hahaha guy is a whining clown. Basically told half his teammates that they SUCK! Cooley and Kevin were SHREDDING him for doing that just this morning.

NBA is a different animal.

Do you see Tom Brady doing that? Nope. He just goes out there and dominates with whoever he has.

Did Jordan/Bird/Magic ever say that crud?? Did Gretzky ever do that?? NEVER! Not even Mario ever said something like that.

That's what it looks like when a player unapologetically wants to win rather than just quietly go about his business. Tom Brady doesn't have balls to speak up like that so he has wife talk about how he "can't ****ing throw the ball and catch the ball" while he hides behind her skirt until the Patriots organization takes a hint. If Ovechkin did that to Leonsis maybe we'd have cups instead of McPhee using Ovechkin's prime for a 5 year Make Jeff Schultz Great Again project.

 

[BobRouse]

In his defense he is 32 and he knows his chances to dominate and win in the league is short, maybe 2-3 more years max. Tom Brady doesn't need to do that because his coach is so good and Jordan/Bird Magic/Gretzky/Mario didn't play in a time of social media and every word an athlete say being made available. There isn't a doubt in my mind that all of those guys said at one point we need better players it just didn't get publicized because of the time. How can you hate on his attitude that is win above everything else

Because he is pointing fingers at other people without pointing at himself. This is poor leadership in my book.

Do you ever see a great QB take credit when things go right and point the finger when things don't? No. You see RGIII types.

All these guys want to win. Pointing fingers at your teammates in the media is not a way to go about it.

Joe Gibbs was the ultimate uniter. When things went wrong he took ALL the blame in the media and handled things behind closed doors. He was the coach.

Last I checked LeBron is not the coach or the GM...well maybe he is!! haha clown

 

[OV Rocks]

Because he is pointing fingers at other people without pointing at himself. This is poor leadership in my book.

Do you ever see a great QB take credit when things go right and point the finger when things don't? No. You see RGIII types.

All these guys want to win. Pointing fingers at your teammates in the media is not a way to go about it.

Joe Gibbs was the ultimate uniter. When things went wrong he took ALL the blame in the media and handled things behind closed doors. He was the coach.

Last I checked LeBron is not the coach or the GM...well maybe he is!! haha clown

He isn't pointing fingers at anyone on his team, instead telling management what it is going to take to win. LeBron has been to 6 straight finals, that is insane! He knows better than anyone in that organization what it takes to win. He sees that his team doesn't have a playmaker to run the point because Kyrie isn't good at opening up the play for everyone else and LeBron is a Forward. He knows that in order to beat Golden State they need a playmaker to spread the floor. He knows it so he wants management to do something about it. Just like we all know the Caps need another top defenseman or another scoring winger because playoff time the scoring tightens up and defense shines, nobody on the team has the RESPECT LeBron has form management to say it besides Ovi, Nicky, and Trotz

 

[OV Rocks]

Say Ovechkin came out and said we need a 3rd line Right Winger that can score because that is what it will take to beat Pittsburg.

Would you be mad at him for calling out players or would you say Ovi wants to win and knows what the team needs.Not selfish at all just wanting to win

 

[BobRouse]

Say Ovechkin came out and said we need a 3rd line Right Winger that can score because that is what it will take to beat Pittsburg.

Would you be mad at him for calling out players or would you say Ovi wants to win and knows what the team needs.Not selfish at all just wanting to win

YES I'D BE UPSET! He would be eviscerated by the media and fans and I'd lose a measure of respect for him.

But Ovechkin doesn't do that. Name one NHL great who has?? One...

I recall during Ovechkin's rookie year before a random game a reporter came up to him and said (I forget the exact team and players he named off but I think it was this..) "Hey..Crosby has Lemieux, Leclair, Palffy, Gonchar etc" how are you going to beat all those guys?"

Ovechkin's response? "So??? We have Halpern, Zubrus, Witt etc."

LeBron IS DEFINITELY pointing fingers. He is saying "Its not MY fault! Its these other scrubs that are holding us down!"


EDIT: I do recall an instance...

In 1996-97 Adam Oates was Captain of the Bruins. After a bad stretch he basically said they don't have good enough players to surround him and Bourque with.

Their GM (Sinden?) was FURIOUS. The next day at practice he barged into the dressing room and addressed Oates and the team. He repeated what Oates had said then systematically went from player to player and told them "Oates says YOU are not good enough!"

Anyhow Oates was traded soon after that.

Oates has had a history of being a petulant selfish player from his contract disputes with St Louis, his lack of tact in Boston, his petulance in Washington as a player and then being an arrogant coach.

[/Weeks before the deal, Oates sharply criticized Boston management, asking to be traded if the organization wouldn’t ante up to put a better quality team on the ice in Beantown.



“We’re getting worse every year,†Oates told Boston reporters after a Feb. 18 loss to Colorado, reported the late Dave Fay in the March 3, 1997 edition of The Washington Times. “Now we’re doing it with less and less guys and I think it’s upstairs. They’re not doing their job. I don’t know if the owner is telling [Sinden] he can’t spend money or if it’s his decision. But we’ve been getting worse every year since I’ve been here (1992]. You can’t blame anybody except them.â€



The Bruins stripped Oates of the alternate captain’s “A†and began exploring trade possibilities.
I]

https://dumpnchase.monumentalsportsnetwork.com/2013/03/01/the-big-deal-that-brought-oates-to-dc/index.jsp

CHICAGO -- The Bruins fired back at center Adam Oates yesterday, stripping the alternate captain's `A' off his sweater and taking him to task in front of his teammates.

Assistant general manager Mike O'Connell met with the team prior to its morning skate and berated the player for comments Oates made after Boston's 3-2 overtime loss in Colorado Tuesday night.

According to players in the room, the assistant GM pointed out players individually to Oates and asked, "Isn't he good enough?" in response to Oates saying the club was simply not good enough to win. "I don't think it's really beneficial to get into a {shouting} match, but he told the guys he had no problem with if I want to fire at him but he interpreted the article that I was {dumping} on my teammates, that they weren't good enough," said Oates


https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8413605.html

 

[Revelation]

YES I'D BE UPSET! He would be eviscerated by the media and fans and I'd lose a measure of respect for him.

But Ovechkin doesn't do that. Name one NHL great who has?? One...

I recall during Ovechkin's rookie year before a random game a reporter came up to him and said (I forget the exact team and players he named off but I think it was this..) "Hey..Crosby has Lemieux, Leclair, Palffy, Gonchar etc" how are you going to beat all those guys?"

Ovechkin's response? "So??? We have Halpern, Zubrus, Witt etc."

Looking back that clearly worked wonders.

Clearly it is the Lebron who has only gone to the finals 6 or 10 or however many times in a row while being his teams' MVP every single time who knows nothing about leading teams to victory.

 

[Hivemind]

Oshie is currently tied for 21st in the league in goal scoring. Not sure how you can say that is not irreplaceable. We will see. Maybe Burt blows up in the playoffs but what we saw was Oshie was the guy last playoffs.

Not even talking about Williams. If the idea is to fill Oshie and Williams minutes with Burakovsky and Connolly, the offense is going to get hurt

Between the salary cap and the expansion draft, this team is not staying together. They can't keep everybody. That's a simple fact of life at this point. If you view all these players as "irreplaceable" then perhaps you understand the desire from many of us to go "all in" on this team, this season. Then you understand the desire from many of us to add the depth of the team.

 

[txpd]

Between the salary cap and the expansion draft, this team is not staying together. They can't keep everybody. That's a simple fact of life at this point. If you view all these players as "irreplaceable" then perhaps you understand the desire from many of us to go "all in" on this team, this season. Then you understand the desire from many of us to add the depth of the team.

All these players? I was talking about Oshie, the #2 goal scorer on the team. Don't build the strawman too big

 

[Hivemind]

All these players? I was talking about Oshie, the #2 goal scorer on the team. Don't build the strawman too big

Do you disagree with the general point I was making, that this team is going to have to lose some of the players on this roster in order to be cap compliant next year?
You just clearly articulated that you don't believe internal replacements are likely to fill the voids left by Oshie and/or Williams, and you have previously articulated your strongly held desire to retain Alzner.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Man lots of Lebron haters. It's good to be the King?

Brett Hull was famous for telling his teammates they suck and meaning it.

 

[BackToTheBasics]

Because he is pointing fingers at other people without pointing at himself. This is poor leadership in my book.

Do you ever see a great QB take credit when things go right and point the finger when things don't? No. You see RGIII types.

All these guys want to win. Pointing fingers at your teammates in the media is not a way to go about it.

Joe Gibbs was the ultimate uniter. When things went wrong he took ALL the blame in the media and handled things behind closed doors. He was the coach.

Last I checked LeBron is not the coach or the GM...well maybe he is!! haha clown

LeBron has as much of a say in trade talks as anyone in that organization and for good reason. He's the only reason they are locks to make the finals EVERY season. Their record without him in the lineup is terrible and they ought to listen to his requests if they plan on winning which he has clearly shown an ability to do. Like him or hate him, he knows exactly what it takes to win and has done it many times before.

The Oates situation isn't comparable at all because he was a loser who never won anything and whined his way out of every organization he played for.

 

[BobRouse]

Man lots of Lebron haters. It's good to be the King?

Brett Hull was famous for telling his teammates they suck and meaning it.

I don't recall Hull ever doing that. Well at least not through the media but I could be wrong.

But Hull isn't exactly known for his "leadership". This is the guy who refused to serve penalties and was defiant about it. The one time Keenan made him do it was comical.

The point is you don't call out your teammates or management through the media. It creates a distraction and solves nothing.

If some of you believe its a good thing for teammates to call each other out through the media then more power to you.

LeBron has as much of a say in trade talks as anyone in that organization and for good reason. He's the only reason they are locks to make the finals EVERY season. Their record without him in the lineup is terrible and they ought to listen to his requests if they plan on winning which he has clearly shown an ability to do. Like him or hate him, he knows exactly what it takes to win and has done it many times before.

The Oates situation isn't comparable at all because he was a loser who never won anything and whined his way out of every organization he played for.

So why not just bring it up behind closed doors with management? Why not go to each individual player and let them know?

Jordan, Bird, and Magic won tons of championships. Jordan basically was the team. I'd say he was a better player than Lebron. He talked smack at practice and in the locker room. But he never did it through the media bc he understood that is a bad thing.

 

[BackToTheBasics]

So why not just bring it up behind closed doors with management? Why not go to each individual player and let them know?

Jordan, Bird, and Magic won tons of championships. Jordan basically was the team. I'd say he was a better player than Lebron. He talked smack at practice and in the locker room. But he never did it through the media bc he understood that is a bad thing.

Because it puts more pressure on ownership to make a deal. I'm sure LeBron was just saying what everyone else on the team already knew; they need more pieces for the team to win a championship. He wasn't pointing fingers and calling players scrubs. He was pointing out that they need more depth to win. I see nothing wrong with that. If he was calling out individual players, then there would definitely be a problem.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Behind closed doors is optimal and all indications are he has been doing that. Dude got frustrated...he's human. You're taking it personally (for his teammates for some odd reason, you must really dislike Lebron), but it's abundantly clear he's right as far as pure analysis of their needs. Moving on.

 

[Revelation]

Superstars should absolutely call out pudgy executives and garbage players for wasting their time. At least the ones that want to win something. It's shallow and stupid to take the blame for those not pulling their weight because that's never gonna lead to a championship.

Imagine if the Kevin Lowe decides to have his son play goalie for the Oilers. Connor McDavid puts up 2PPG but they proceed to lose every game because they have a dude off the street playing goalie. I guess the proper response for McDavid would be dramatic internal reflection on how he needs to do better and how he should should pick up his game if he wants to win a cup not that the guys upstairs should get a real ****ing goalie.

LeBron got freaking Cleveland a title, if that doesn't make you the greatest authority on winning I don't know what does. That's like Arizona being dragged to a cup.