Player Discussion Aatu Raty

[LemonSauceD]

The next Derek Roy

What kind of comparison is that

 

[Coffees]

What kind of comparison is that

Outside the box one

 

[RobertKron]

I think Raty recognized the thing he really needed to work on in the summer was his skating. That gives me hope when the player fully recognizes what is holding him back because some players just don't get that understanding. That should translate to a program of skating over the off season and we should immediately see strides (pun intended) once camp opens. If we do then there is a good chance he has a NHL future. If we don't see those improvements then he'll likely just be an AHL forward getting 0.9 pt/game because either he's not working on it or his deficiencies aren't ones that can be coached out.

There is like a zero percent chance that this kid hasn’t known that he desperately needs to improve his skating for like at least 5+ years.

IIRC, last offseason was supposed to be a big push for improving his skating as well. Here’s a quote from an April, 2023 article:

“We’ve had our skating coach in quite a bit to work with him,” Johnson says of Räty’s pace, “but that’s not something you can improve immensely in season with all of the travel. That’s an offseason objective, getting his core stronger and more explosive and working on those first three strides.

“I’m excited to get to work with him once the season has finished up.”

If he had truly only realized this going into this summer it’d be such a damning indictment of both himself and like everyone that he’s ever interacted with.

 

[F A N]

I think Raty recognized the thing he really needed to work on in the summer was his skating. That gives me hope when the player fully recognizes what is holding him back because some players just don't get that understanding. That should translate to a program of skating over the off season and we should immediately see strides (pun intended) once camp opens. If we do then there is a good chance he has a NHL future. If we don't see those improvements then he'll likely just be an AHL forward getting 0.9 pt/game because either he's not working on it or his deficiencies aren't ones that can be coached out.

There is like a zero percent chance that this kid hasn’t known that he desperately needs to improve his skating for like at least 5+ years.

IIRC, last offseason was supposed to be a big push for improving his skating as well. Here’s a quote from an April, 2023 article:



If he had truly only realized this going into this summer it’d be such a damning indictment of both himself and like everyone that he’s ever interacted with.

Raty's summer training has been explored in the Blais thread. According to @PuckMunchkin, Raty still can't skate and hi " summer training seems to lack direction. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that... Räty does not have the education to work on things properly."

 

[RobertKron]

Raty's summer training has been explored in the Blais thread. According to @PuckMunchkin, Raty still can't skate and hi " summer training seems to lack direction. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that... Räty does not have the education to work on things properly."

I really don't understand why you're so hung up on that, and think it's some kind of weird gotcha.

It'd be understandable if you were contesting the factuality of OP's account of things, but as far as their statement about his lack of credentials or whatever is concerned, unless he's been pursuing his education while also playing pro hockey of course he's unlikely to have the background necessary to be able to effectively self-direct his own elite-level off-season program. The age of like Bobby Hull going and tossing hay around all summer or whatever is long gone.

But yeah, if OP's account of Raty's off-season is correct, then things aren't looking promising. It's hard enough to improve one's skating at this level, but it'd be borderline impossible without specialized, high-end guidance.

OP saying Raty lacks the education to properly direct his own off-season training at this level isn't some kind of insult to his intelligence or whatever. Like, he also probably lacks the education to design and manufacture his own equipment, or draw up and build an arena, or build himself the car he uses to get to his training sessions, and all those folks likely lack the ability to do the things he can do in his own area of professional expertise. This really shouldn't be shocking stuff.

 

[F A N]

I really don't understand why you're so hung up on that, and think it's some kind of weird gotcha.

It'd be understandable if you were contesting the factuality of OP's account of things, but as far as their statement about his lack of credentials or whatever is concerned, unless he's been pursuing his education while also playing pro hockey of course he's unlikely to have the background necessary to be able to effectively self-direct his own elite-level off-season program. The age of like Bobby Hull going and tossing hay around all summer or whatever is long gone.

But yeah, if OP's account of Raty's off-season is correct, then things aren't looking promising.

It's relevant for discussions. You and others are expressing hope which a poster here has insider information crushing that hope. It's not a gotcha when I tagged that poster so he could better respond to you and others. It's no different than if I responded by quoting an article and linking to it.

I would say the "some kind of weird gotcha" is more appropriate to describe your responses to @VanJack

 

[RobertKron]

It's relevant for discussions. You and others are expressing hope which a poster here has insider information crushing that hope. It's not a gotcha when I tagged that poster so he could better respond to you and others. It's no different than if I responded by quoting an article and linking to it.

I would say the "some kind of weird gotcha" is more appropriate to describe your responses to @VanJack

Yeah, you running around going on about how "oh so-and-so that I just had a really dumb fifty-six page argument with where I had a multi-day rolling temper tantrum about this exact wording thinks that Raty lacks the education for XYZ" is just totally organic commentary intended to innocently add to the discussion. I'm sure.

Yes, I can certainly see how me consistantly pointing out absurdity in the comments made by a poster who I think consistently makes absurd comments would be considered gotcha-ism. I'm also willing to be honest about my behaviour instead of just pretending that it's all just some coincidence that I keep doing it. What of it?

Moreover, you're kind of misconstruing my comments on Raty. While I do certainly hope that Raty figures it out and has a solid NHL career, I don't personally hold overly much hope of that happening. IMO, most really bad skaters - if they're still bad skaters at like 22 or whatever - are usually just bad skaters - especially if the stride is a mess. I feel as though that should have been pretty clear from my posts in this thread, but now I've laid it out there for those that lack the education to work it out properly.

 

[arttk]

Raty's summer training has been explored in the Blais thread. According to @PuckMunchkin, Raty still can't skate and hi " summer training seems to lack direction. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that... Räty does not have the education to work on things properly."

puckmunchkin is a pro skating coach now?

 

[bandwagonesque]

According to @PuckMunchkin, training seems to lack direction.

Perhaps this just makes it more likely he'll turn a corner

 

[F A N]

I just had a really dumb fifty-six page argument

Maybe don't do that?

.
Yes, I can certainly see how me consistantly pointing out absurdity in the comments made by a poster who I think consistently makes absurd comments would be considered gotcha-ism. I'm also willing to be honest about my behaviour instead of just pretending that it's all just some coincidence that I keep doing it. What of it?

Glad you agree that you were more appropriately describing yourself.

I don't think it's a "gotcha" when I had prior honest discussion/debate with the poster on the same/similar discussion and respectfully gave opportunities to clarify his statements after which I still couldn't fully understand. I also do not think it's a "gotcha" when I simply referred to another poster's opinion when said poster appears to have insider knowledge as well as expertise (who previously commented directly on what is being discussed here).

It's also not a "gothca" simply because I refer to an opinion that I don't necessarily agree with. I believe I can disagree with another poster's opinion and even think it's ridiculous while acknowledging/believing that said poster has the said background/educational expertise to offer an opinion that presumably derives from such background and expertise. I don't think that is the case with you and Vanjack.

I do like to (attempt) to make jokes and I often make half-serious sarcastic comments and poke fun at things without taking away from the point I am making. In this case, I don't think it takes away from the points I made.

Moreover, you're kind of misconstruing my comments on Raty. While I do certainly hope that Raty figures it out and has a solid NHL career, I don't personally hold overly much hope of that happening. IMO, most really bad skaters - if they're still bad skaters at like 22 or whatever - are usually just bad skaters - especially if the stride is a mess. I feel as though that should have been pretty clear from my posts in this thread, but now I've laid it out there for those that lack the education to work it out properly.

No I'm not misconstruing your comments at all. In fact, I think we share similar opinions here. But don't you think insider knowledge about how Raty's skating is progressing this summer is relevant to our discussions here? We're both thinking he can make improvements. But if he really is training aimlessly and he "still can't skate" don't you think that's relevant information to consider?

puckmunchkin is a pro skating coach now?

No but he claims to have insider knowledge of how Raty's skating and training is progressing this summer and I believe him. Puckmunchkin seems to know a lot about pro athlete training programs so I think his statements/opinion/what he heard in this regard should be considered. I have no interest in questioning his expertise but you are obviously free to.

 

[arttk]

Maybe don't do that?


Glad you agree that you were more appropriately describing yourself.

I don't think it's a "gotcha" when I had prior honest discussion/debate with the poster on the same/similar discussion and respectfully gave opportunities to clarify his statements after which I still couldn't fully understand. I also do not think it's a "gotcha" when I simply referred to another poster's opinion when said poster appears to have insider knowledge as well as expertise (who previously commented directly on what is being discussed here).

It's also not a "gothca" simply because I refer to an opinion that I don't necessarily agree with. I believe I can disagree with another poster's opinion and even think it's ridiculous while acknowledging/believing that said poster has the said background/educational expertise to offer an opinion that presumably derives from such background and expertise. I don't think that is the case with you and Vanjack.

I do like to (attempt) to make jokes and I often make half-serious sarcastic comments and poke fun at things without taking away from the point I am making. In this case, I don't think it takes away from the points I made.


No I'm not misconstruing your comments at all. In fact, I think we share similar opinions here. But don't you think insider knowledge about how Raty's skating is progressing this summer is relevant to our discussions here? We're both thinking he can make improvements. But if he really is training aimlessly and he "still can't skate" don't you think that's relevant information to consider?


No but he claims to have insider knowledge of how Raty's skating and training is progressing this summer and I believe him. Puckmunchkin seems to know a lot about pro athlete training programs so I think his statements/opinion/what he heard in this regard should be considered. I have no interest in questioning his expertise but you are obviously free to.

It would be shocking if he is actually training aimlessly. It seems like this management team is quite in touch with everyone during the off season and one would assume that he’s been given guidance on what to work on and how.
Maybe his skating is so god awful that they are asking him to do stuff to build strength elsewhere that makes it feel not intuitive. I do remember Bo mentioning that in an interview about how he had to do something different.

 

[F A N]

It would be shocking if he is actually training aimlessly. It seems like this management team is quite in touch with everyone during the off season and one would assume that he’s been given guidance on what to work on and how.
Maybe his skating is so god awful that they are asking him to do stuff to build strength elsewhere that makes it feel not intuitive. I do remember Bo mentioning that in an interview about how he had to do something different.

That's pretty much what I expressed to PM. But PM said I I was wrong. Hence I referred to his exact words: "Autu still can't skate... His summer training seems to lack direction. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that... Räty does not have the education to work on things properly." When asked where he got the information he stated "I work with some of the NHLers from around here."

@RobertKron thinks I'm out to make "gotcha" posts but clearly you too agree that it's worthy of discussion in context.

 

[arttk]

That's pretty much what I expressed to PM. But PM said I I was wrong. Hence I referred to his exact words: "Autu still can't skate... His summer training seems to lack direction. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that... Räty does not have the education to work on things properly." When asked where he got the information he stated "I work with some of the NHLers from around here."

@RobertKron thinks I'm out to make "gotcha" posts but clearly you too agree that it's worthy of discussion in context.

yeah I guess we’ll see soon enough. From all the scouting reports, his skating is so bad that it seems like it would be amazing if he can just be average.

 

[VanJack]

Yikes
It always amazes me how hard it is to improve on skating.

I was actually there at UBC when Bo Horvat made one of his early training camp appearance in a Canuck uniform. I remember saying to myself....Wow!.....this kid needs to seriously improve in the skating department. So it does happen.....sometimes.

Also remember that Gustav Forsling was making his camp debut as well. And was one of the best d-men on the ice, despite his rather slight stature.

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

He’s a weird player. Kind of the exact opposite of Podkolzin/Hoglander in the AHL in that those guys would be noticeable game-to-game with some loud individual skills that never really translated to production whereas Raty is a very high-IQ positionally intelligent player who will have a stretch of games where he felt ‘quiet’ and then you look at the stats and he’s picked up a point or two every night.

He’s just a boring, bland, reliable player. Wish he used his size more – he competes but there’s no mean streak there at all. Generally does the right things defensively although footspeed is an issue in all aspects of his game.




He's an incredibly similar player to Brendan Gaunce. Big, slow, reliable bottom-6 body. Started out as a C but skating looks like he'll probably be a wing in pro. Maybe a little more skilled than Gaunce and a bit more PP2 upside but also a bit worse skater.

Sorry that's a terrible comparable. Raty is very skilled with a high hockey IQ once compared to Barkov.
Obviously Barkov he is not but the point is he's always been known for his high-end skill and his game is built for the smaller ice.
He's not a great skater but it's passable and has improved.

What seems to keep him from more hype is he seems to take awhile to adjust from league to league but he clearly figured out the AHL and clearly played like a top end forward once he did.

So maybe it takes a little longer but he's going to end up a solid 2nd line forward with the typical strong defensive game that is a calling card of Finn's.
Not sure how anyone who watched the 2nd half of the year didn't come away excited about him.

 

[Coffees]

That's pretty much what I expressed to PM. But PM said I I was wrong. Hence I referred to his exact words: "Autu still can't skate... His summer training seems to lack direction. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that... Räty does not have the education to work on things properly." When asked where he got the information he stated "I work with some of the NHLers from around here."

@RobertKron thinks I'm out to make "gotcha" posts but clearly you too agree that it's worthy of discussion in context.

Plus nothing wrong with a little gotcha moment from time to time

 

[MS]

Sorry that's a terrible comparable. Raty is very skilled with a high hockey IQ once compared to Barkov.
Obviously Barkov he is not but the point is he's always been known for his high-end skill and his game is built for the smaller ice.
He's not a great skater but it's passable and has improved.

What seems to keep him from more hype is he seems to take awhile to adjust from league to league but he clearly figured out the AHL and clearly played like a top end forward once he did.

So maybe it takes a little longer but he's going to end up a solid 2nd line forward with the typical strong defensive game that is a calling card of Finn's.
Not sure how anyone who watched the 2nd half of the year didn't come away excited about him.

He doesn’t have high-end skill, his skating isn’t ’passable’ currently, and mentioning him in the same breath as Barkov is absurd.

He’s a big, slow, low-event guy with 3rd line upside max.

 

[shottasasa]

I would be pleased if he turned into a good third liner. The team needs to have a conveyor belt of cheap bottom 6 talent to sustain now that the top players are starting to be paid as such.

 

[tantalum]

Raty's summer training has been explored in the Blais thread. According to @PuckMunchkin, Raty still can't skate and hi " summer training seems to lack direction. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that... Räty does not have the education to work on things properly."

And if that is so then it's failure of the development staff who should have provided him with a specific program and been working with him.

 

[credulous]

And if that is so then it's failure of the development staff who should have provided him with a specific program and been working with him.

the development staff is like 3 people. they don't write detailed plans with kpis and goals for every single player and prospect

nhlers are largely left to their own devices when it comes to their training. teams just don't have the time or the staff to hand hold every single player through their professional development and even if they did the players already have detailed training regimes from prior to their turning pro most want to stick with

 

[tantalum]

the development staff is like 3 people. they don't write detailed plans with kpis and goals for every single player and prospect

nhlers are largely left to their own devices when it comes to their training. teams just don't have the time or the staff to hand hold every single player through their professional development and even if they did the players already have detailed training regimes from prior to their turning pro most want to stick with

I'm not saying to hand hold but yes they should be working with the prospects in the off season and visiting to make sure plans are being followed. And yes they can provide plans of specific things to work on and how to work on them. There aren't that many players. If my son's trainer can provide his 20 some odd clients with detailed plans I'm really sure a professional sports team can come up with something for a dozen prospects. And if they don't well then the professional sports world needs to wake up. But yes ultimately it's up to the player to follow such things but no way should they be simply off on their own.

A 16 year old kid in SW Missouri at a small school should not be getting better training and guidance than a NHL prospect.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

There are limits to how much contact and specific coaching teams can do with players in the off season. In the CBA. I'm not going to read the CBA right now myself, but remember the Canucks were fined last offseason for being in violation.

 

[credulous]

I'm not saying to hand hold but yes they should be working with the prospects in the off season and visiting to make sure plans are being followed. And yes they can provide plans of specific things to work on and how to work on them. There aren't that many players. If my son's trainer can provide his 20 some odd clients with detailed plans I'm really sure a professional sports team can come up with something for a dozen prospects. And if they don't well then the professional sports world needs to wake up. But yes ultimately it's up to the player to follow such things but no way should they be simply off on their own.

A 16 year old kid in SW Missouri at a small school should not be getting better training and guidance than a NHL prospect.

i don't think anyone is saying the canucks sent raty off with like three new drills to try and a one page training plan but these are elite athletes who need dedicated training resources and regular supervision and intervention to maximize their performance. the canucks simply do not provide that. and i'm not being critical of the canucks in this regard -- *no* nhl team provides it. even the nba doesn't provide it and they have the most money and the fewest athletes to cater to

 

[MS]

the development staff is like 3 people. they don't write detailed plans with kpis and goals for every single player and prospect

nhlers are largely left to their own devices when it comes to their training. teams just don't have the time or the staff to hand hold every single player through their professional development and even if they did the players already have detailed training regimes from prior to their turning pro most want to stick with

I'm pretty sure they do, especially for a top-5 organizational prospect like Raty.

If he (or any prospect) isn't going into the offseason with a dedicated plan that he and the team are on the same page with, something has gone seriously wrong. And it sounds like this was the case during the Benning years, but I *highly* doubt that this group of people are just letting prospects dangle in the wind to their own devices. The Sedins in particular are heavily involved in this stuff and they're detail-oriented machines.

____________

As an aside, I can remember when Rick Girard - an already smallish prospect - spent an offseason in the 1990s triathlon training and *LOST 20 POUNDS* and the organization being aghast when they found out when he showed up for camp. But those days are gone, again assuming Jim Benning isn't running your hockey team.

 

[shottasasa]

I’m sure the team has a plan for each player with things to work on and suggestions on how to accomplish that but I don’t know exactly how detailed that gets. As mentioned by a couple posters, the CBA rules prevent the team overseeing or intervening in offseason player training. After all, I hear Bali is nice this time of year.

I think some players are better than others at organising and administering their training plans (not to be confused with working hard) and it seems to me that was what PM was alluding to. If a player struggles in that department I hope they attach themselves to a group of NHL players for their off season work. I’m sure there are groups in Finland like there are in North America. If Raty struggles in this area I can see why a player with a lot of natural talent falls behind as they climb the ranks.