A Comprehensive Review of the Kyle Dubas Era

[FerrisRox]

I think youre misunderstanding

Its not the fact Dubas is in a further along process, its the impact hes had on it.

Either way, i think its a stupid way to "rank" and i dont think the noise around Treliving has been all that similar but Im looking at impact on process and not counting volume of reports (which still seems very similar and like theres more Dubas coverage)

Also - what drives an opposing fan to lurk on another board like this?

I don't consider myself an "opposing" fan at all.

I'm a Torontonian who watches a ton of Maple Leafs hockey. If you live in Toronto, and you're a hockey fan, you're going to be immersed in Maple Leafs coverage so you might as well lean into it.

First and foremost, I'm a Montreal Canadiens fan, but I don't even look at the Maple Leafs as rivals. With the exception of the playoffs a couple of years back, the Leafs have never had an impact on the Canadiens success or failure in my entire life time so I can't really think of them as rivals at all. To me, the Canadiens have a hated rival and thats the Bruins. They have met maybe a dozen or more times in the playoffs in my life. They are absolutely rivals. Meanwhile, I've rooted for the Leafs my entire life as my "hometown" team, they just aren't my favourite team because they have been pretty bad for much of my lifetime. I don't dislike the team at all, and never have. The fanbase, however, I have definitely had some issues with over the years lol

I was very excited by the young core the Leafs had put together and I strongly believe that Kyle Dubas destroyed the best chance I had to see the Leafs win the Cup in my life time.

If you go back and look I was saying *before* the Leafs signed Tavares that it would be a catastrophic mistake and would destroy their internal pay structure.

I said this *before* they signed him. So I wasn't just hating on Dubas or the Leafs when they signed Tavares. I was saying before that it would be a huge mistake and would sink this promising core. I said that as a fan that wanted to see what this young core could have become.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Yes you're right, but he also severely handcuffed the Canucks for many years after his dismissal.

Tyler Meyers, OEL, Dickonson (needed to trade picks to offload), Pearson, Poolman and along with other questionable signings that have matured all play a massive role in why that team is a perennial dud. Despite having a decently talented young core. In a f***ing garbage division no less.

You may not like Kyle and see no value in what he did these past 5 seasons, but he didn't leave any mess to clean up. Which is massive. Again, referencing Jim once more, his hail Mary move was to trade the last years of Louis Erikson, Beagle, and Roussel's deals for 6 more years of a useless OEL. That is the level of desperation you usually see from a GM in the hot seat. Those deals can kill your franchise.

Kyle did nothing of that nature. Despite having all of the weight in the world on his shoulders. You have to respect that

Maybe he wasn't allowed to do what Benning did....

 

[myleafs]

All five years of the Dubas Debacle were equally terrible.

He learned absolutely NOTHING - - as evidenced by continuing to stick with Bozo the Keefe as coach and bringing in an overpaid, injury prone, piss-poor goalie to replace last year’s overpaid, injury prone, piss-poor goalie.

That one really put the shambles in my mind

 

[ShaneFalco]

Do you actually think Kyle would table a counter offer to Shanny that reportedly nearly doubled his financial compensation if he wasn't at the very least aware of the interest he had leaguewide??

C'mon guys, it's fine to have a different opinion on him. If you don't think he is the guy for the job, I can totally respect that. But you are flat out wrong if you think he is a complete failure. Those guys don't get employed in the same roles immediately after their dismissals. To put it in perspective, JFJ was relieved of his GM job in 2008. He has not received a GM position since. People don't forget epic failures.

In contrast, Bruce Cassidy, his tenure as the Bruins coach would be every bit as much of a failure as Kyle's tenure as GM. Bruce was then immediately hired into a similar role and is 1 game away from the SCF.

Kyle will be successful in this league, and he will be employed as a GM for a long time. He has shown he is more than capable of assembling a winning team

Kyle was obviously lying about his family and/or used it as a bargaining chip. He caught his bosses off guard with his drama and then a week.later he's in Pitts.

 

[myleafs]

Minus

Ultimate momentum killer trade that set the team back years was the Kadri trade. The logic was a borderline top pair D-man rental with a solid 3C attached. I've never seen a more precipitous fall from grace than what Tyson Barrie endured here after actual hockey fans watched him play with regularity. And Kerfoot never player centre on this team.

Foligno deal. Not a killer, but hurt.

Choosing to attach a first to Marleau instead of Johnsson or Kapanen.

Milquetoast drafting. A lot of nickels and dimes and a couple of quarters even. Nothing to excite a fanbase outside of Knies.

Unearned faith in Holl and Kerfoot.

Plus

Team first process. Unlike other GMs, you never looked at a move and thought it was shortsighted and focused on saving their own skin.

Cap management was masterful. Unfortunately for him, the team enters a period of great flexibility without him at the helm.

Above average bargain hunter. Every team will occasionally find a sealed twinkie in the trash bin but Dubas was more consistent than most.

Well Ill give him that...an adequate dumpster diver

 

[myleafs]

Jettisoning Dubas isn't going to change much if you just bring back all of Dubas's players just like Dubas would have. It's cute when we try to blame it on Keefe but it wasn't any different under Babcock. It's the guys on the ice that aren't cutting it. And apparently they're all coming back. Yippee.

Ill believe it when it happens.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Ill believe it when it happens.

Yeah I don't buy it either

 

[myleafs]

You need grit, scoring, goaltending, luck, etc. You basically need everything to go right to win a Cup. Hardest trophy in sports to win. I don't think extra grit changes much of past results tbh.

My guess is Dubas will go on to another team and have some great success. Maybe I'm wrong, I just don't think this was the time to let him go. We have invested time into his development, he drafts well, his decision making has improved, and he was willing to trade the core/make major moves to improve the team this off season.

From the core it absolutely would have changed the results...insert Tkachuk for Marner ..insert Bennet for Nylander ...then insert Gudas for Holl and tell me that team doesnt make more noise in the playoffs

 

[myleafs]

People need to stop acting like there was some sort of cap wizardry going on in Toronto in the first place. It's all nonsense.

When you have no space left, you have to do desperate things like signing well past their prime veterans to $850,000 contracts, make several paper transactions to send guys up and down to save money on off-days and offer-low rent contracts to players with question marks and injury history that makes them affordable.

There is no magic going on here and it doesn't require clever manipulation of the salary cap to do this. For years some of Dubas' loudest boosters have pretended that somehow Toronto had this huge advantage cause they had the guy that "wrote the salary cap" coupled with the Boy Genius and this was giving the Leafs a huge advantage in terms of how to manipulate the salary cap. It was all utter nonsense. Dubas gave half the money to four guys and then largely stuck band-aids all over the rest of roster and some people here acted like we were seeing cunning management from a guy playing 3D chess.

The Emperor Had No Clothes. The Maple Leafs are much better off without him.

I admit I drank the koolaid at first and each year the effects of that koolaid wore off until finally I could see clearly again.

 

[ShaneFalco]

From the core it absolutely would have changed the results...insert Tkachuk for Marner ..insert Bennet for Nylander ...then insert Gudas for Holl and tell me that team doesnt make more noise in the playoffs

Yup they become a perimeter team in the playoffs, not willing to go to war and go hard to the net. That's why theyre goalied ever year

 

[m1ker]

Which core piece is going to Pits for a blockbuster

 

[myleafs]

I think people will soon realize what a "terrible failure" GM actually looks like. We've had no shortage of that in our recent 30 years, and Kyle was not even close to that.

It's funny how there is some who think of Kyle's tenure as a complete failure and that he is the dumbest mind in hockey, yet those same people would likely never refer to Auston, Mitch and Willy as such failures. Yet they share the same, if not more, of the blame in the last 5 seasons.

It is entirely possible for talented players to have seasons that end in failure, but not be complete failures as players. Same goes for General Managers.

Kyle is a very bright hockey mind. He is innovative, and he helped develop a culture that players wanted to play for and represent. I can't remember any former GM being able to get players on team friendly, league minimum deals. Yet that was common place for Kyle. Say what you will about him overpaying our core, he always found a way to round out the roster in a way that was worthy of competing for the Stanley Cup. Ultimately he hitched his wagon to Mitch, Auston, JT, and Willy which was ultimately turned out to be his biggest undoing. Mitch and Auston particularly let him down in those big moments with an alarming regularity. But I got news for you, it didn't matter who was steering the ship these past 5 seasons, those 2 would be in the same place, letting whoever was in charge down when it mattered the most.

I often wonder if the people who criticize Dubas even remember some of our previous GM's...I just don't know how you could even throw Kyle's name into the same basket as JFJ, Fletcher, Nonis, Burke and even Lou. All of those guys were far worse, and left us with far more of a mess to clean up after they left.

I couldnt agree any less. Comparing him to other terrible gm's and say see he is way better than those guys doesnt raise his stock for me. With what he was given to start his tenure with the leafs was a crazy amount of treasure that he has done nothing with....nothing. I hope he takes a gm job with the pens and then we will see what he is made of.

 

[myleafs]

Kyle Dubas is absolutely a horrible failure, as are Matthews, Marner and Nylander.

How many more rd 2 wins does Dubas have than Burke or JFJ? 1. 1 single win. He was gifted a promising young core. Instead of bringing in good cup winning vets to show them the way when they were young, he surrounded them with some of the softest players in the league. He bent over backwards in each of their contract negotiations. He was the mastermind behind one of the softest teams this league has ever seen.

I've said it before, the Burke years were far less embarrassing than the Dubas years. At least with Burke we knew the guys would go out there giving it their all and hitting everything in sight. With Dubas' group we were lucky if they happened to feel like showing up. Cheering for this group while living in a different city was outright disgusting

The bolded for me was the most disappointing IMO. I had to hold my nose and root for these guys more times than I want to admit. Was so hard to watch the disney on ice version he put together here. Was head scratching shameful and I was a Dubas supporter when he first came on board.

The fact that Kyle already has teams clamoring over him and reaching out to him is a testament to his abilities as a GM. Again, this is not my opinion, this would be what the people who work in the game think of him. Not to mention the very organization he was let go from was in an alleged uproar when the news broke of his dismissal.

You guys need to remove your feelings towards the guy, and understand he is a very quality GM in this league. He wears a share of the blame for certain. But IMO his share is the smallest in relation to coaching, and the players themselves. I have never claimed Kyle did not make mistakes in his tenure. I know he's made plenty. But that doesn't even come close to scratching the surface on all the good things he accomplished. I have remained consistent in that view of him as a GM for quite some time now. It's not going to change because the team underperformed against the Panthers. The GM's job is done after the deadline, and I was more than satisfied with the construction of the roster at that time. It was worthy of a real run. We ran into a wagon, c'est la vie. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

I have also gone on to say that he is not the only guy that could be fit to do the job for us. There are plenty of bright hockey minds in the game, and we can certainly replace one of them for another. I think it's risky to do so given Kyle's share of the blame was the smallest IMO, but if that's the direction the board wanted to go, I can live with it.

If you need proof of what a terrible and epic failure at the GM position looks like, look at Jim Benning. Who has been out of the game for over a year and a half due to his incompetence. That will not be the case for Kyle, unless he chooses to take a step back. Again, that is the hockey community that will dictate his level of competency, not me.

Really? teams are clamoring over him? Other than an interview with the pens which other teams are doing this?

 

[myleafs]

Do you actually think Kyle would table a counter offer to Shanny that reportedly nearly doubled his financial compensation if he wasn't at the very least aware of the interest he had leaguewide??

C'mon guys, it's fine to have a different opinion on him. If you don't think he is the guy for the job, I can totally respect that. But you are flat out wrong if you think he is a complete failure. Those guys don't get employed in the same roles immediately after their dismissals. To put it in perspective, JFJ was relieved of his GM job in 2008. He has not received a GM position since. People don't forget epic failures.

In contrast, Bruce Cassidy, his tenure as the Bruins coach would be every bit as much of a failure as Kyle's tenure as GM. Bruce was then immediately hired into a similar role and is 1 game away from the SCF.

Kyle will be successful in this league, and he will be employed as a GM for a long time. He has shown he is more than capable of assembling a winning team

We will see but I dont think so myself.....and what assembling and winning are you talking about? The core 4 were already there..they made the playoffs and were a 105 pt team and have 1 series win in his 5 yrs as gm. YOur idea of being a great gm is much different than mine.

Yes you're right, but he also severely handcuffed the Canucks for many years after his dismissal.

Tyler Meyers, OEL, Dickonson (needed to trade picks to offload), Pearson, Poolman and along with other questionable signings that have matured all play a massive role in why that team is a perennial dud. Despite having a decently talented young core. In a f***ing garbage division no less.

You may not like Kyle and see no value in what he did these past 5 seasons, but he didn't leave any mess to clean up. Which is massive. Again, referencing Jim once more, his hail Mary move was to trade the last years of Louis Erikson, Beagle, and Roussel's deals for 6 more years of a useless OEL. That is the level of desperation you usually see from a GM in the hot seat. Those deals can kill your franchise.

Kyle did nothing of that nature. Despite having all of the weight in the world on his shoulders. You have to respect that

really? wow

Yes he is responsible for that and it does make sense. Because he completely bent over for the core during their RFA contract negotiations and handcuffed the team with the cap to improve in other areas.

The fact that you have to spell it out for some says a lot

 

[mikeyz]

From the core it absolutely would have changed the results...insert Tkachuk for Marner ..insert Bennet for Nylander ...then insert Gudas for Holl and tell me that team doesnt make more noise in the playoffs

Say it louder for those in the back.

 

[leafsfan5]

Positives:
- He re-tooled the defensive core in a great way. He began with the likes of Gardiner/Hainsey/Zaitsev and turned it into a deep defensive core adding players such as Brodie, Muzzin, Schenn etc.
- He avoided overpaying for middle class UFAs. One of the worst things a GM can do is overpay those middle class players who will either need to get bought out or become an albatross on your cap.
- Drafting Knies was great and some of his other picks look solid as well
- The Kapanen deal was amazing value, even if the pick hasn't worked out for non-hockey reasons
- He seems to learn from his mistakes. He'll make bad signings (e.g. Ritchie, Mrazek) but corrects them almost immediately to ensure we didn't suffer from it long term.
- Dubas also seemed to realize as we went along that you need functional grit. You can't just trade for guys like Simmonds and Clifford, they need to be important parts of your lineup such as ROR, Schenn and McCabe. I think towards the end of his tenure he really started to hit his stride as a GM
- Good signings: Bunting, Samsonov, Rielly, Kampf

Negatives:
- John Tavares. I won't blame him for this too much since I loved it too, but boy he has destroyed our cap. I wonder what kind of team we would have without him....
- The Matthews/Marner contracts, these were his worst moves and they were genuinely horrendous. We caved in both term and AAV, gave them NTCs with bonuses. They got quite literally everything they wanted, much higher relative to their peers, without accomplishing a thing
- "We can and we will". I'll just use this for the general idea that the core 4 would get it done and we should never abandon it. CJ put it best when he said it created this culture of entitlement where the players believed if they kept doing what they do they'll eventually get the bounces. They don't think they need to be better and that's why they pretty much never say that after we lose in the playoffs. It was very interesting seeing ROR take accountability for the loss this year (and apologizing) while the likes of Marner/Matthews/Tavares talked about bounces and such. Dubas plays a fundamental role in fostering this culture since he so heavily believed we never needed to change the foundation
- Acquiring Murray was a bad move when it was made and it's a bad move now. Once again we will need to dump assets to get a goalie off the books
- Other bad trades: Foligno, Kadri
- His love for utility wingers that suck when it matters. I'm talking about the likes of Kerfoot, Engvall, Mikheyev, Jarnkrok. Dubas loves to pick these players up and we've had an excess of them
- The terrible pro scouting that took place here during his tenure. How many players did we identify as potential great NHL talent and acquire for relatively cheap? I can think of Bunting and Kampf. Now look at other contenders, Colorado jumped on the following: Nuke, Lekhonen, Toews. Florida: Bennett, Montour, Verhaege, Reinhart. Vegas: Stephenson, Roy, Kolesar, Theodore. These are all huge pieces that played big parts in their various runs, but we haven't been able to find these middle class players for cheap
- Sheldon Keefe should have been fired last year, but Dubas held on to him and gave the "legendary coach" speech. We could have had the likes of Bruce Cassidy, instead we kept Keefe and got outcoached in both series once again

 

[Stephen]

I often wonder if the people who criticize Dubas even remember some of our previous GM's...I just don't know how you could even throw Kyle's name into the same basket as JFJ, Fletcher, Nonis, Burke and even Lou. All of those guys were far worse, and left us with far more of a mess to clean up after they left.

I think this thought process in Leafs Nation needs to fundamentally change. People talk about the Dubas regime and previous eras as if the Leafs were competing in a bracket with other historical Leafs teams and not a live 32 team league with other opponents, managers, players and motivations. You can learn from history, when you focus too much on history, you're not evaluating what you have properly against real opponents.

It's not so much we need to worry about backsliding into dark historical eras without Dubas. It's how do we actually design and build a team that doesn't struggle in the playoffs? The point isn't to build a skills showcase and point to all the flashy players we have relative to what we had in the 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

From the core it absolutely would have changed the results...insert Tkachuk for Marner ..insert Bennet for Nylander ...then insert Gudas for Holl and tell me that team doesnt make more noise in the playoffs

Funnily enough, you didn’t even have to swap nylander for Bennett…. You could’ve had both in the North division

Instead of getting foligno for a 1st+, we could’ve had Bennett for 2 2nds. And his extension would cost us kerfoot.

 

[ToneDog]

From the core it absolutely would have changed the results...insert Tkachuk for Marner ..insert Bennet for Nylander ...then insert Gudas for Holl and tell me that team doesnt make more noise in the playoffs

Bennett cost less than what we paid for a broken down Nick Foligno.

Funnily enough, you didn’t even have to swap nylander for Bennett…. You could’ve had both in the North division

Instead of getting foligno for a 1st+, we could’ve had Bennett for 2 2nds. And his extension would cost us kerfoot.

Bennett and Kerfoot. Polar opposites. Guess which one Kyle prefers ??

 

[Future]

When you lay it all out like that, I have no clue how most people think he is a good GM.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Yes you're right, but he also severely handcuffed the Canucks for many years after his dismissal.

Tyler Meyers, OEL, Dickonson (needed to trade picks to offload), Pearson, Poolman and along with other questionable signings that have matured all play a massive role in why that team is a perennial dud. Despite having a decently talented young core. In a f***ing garbage division no less.

You may not like Kyle and see no value in what he did these past 5 seasons, but he didn't leave any mess to clean up. Which is massive. Again, referencing Jim once more, his hail Mary move was to trade the last years of Louis Erikson, Beagle, and Roussel's deals for 6 more years of a useless OEL. That is the level of desperation you usually see from a GM in the hot seat. Those deals can kill your franchise.

Kyle did nothing of that nature. Despite having all of the weight in the world on his shoulders. You have to respect that

Kyle Dubas left us in a very tough spot, are you kidding?

An absurdly top-heavy lineup where the expensive players are often not the best ones come the postseason in the first place. In less than 2 months, massive decisions must be made on 3 spoiled primadonnas that control absolutely everything and they know it. A brutal goaltending situation. Little cap flexibility. No draft picks and a prospect pool shallower than a piss puddle, making a potential rebuild all the more difficult and time-consuming. A slow, expensive lineup that lacks depth, scoring and compete. Who cares about the regular season?

No, he's not Jim Benning but Jesus christ we are not in the greatest of spots and a lot of that is the fault of Kyle Dubas.

 

[ToneDog]

Kyle Dubas left us in a very tough spot, are you kidding?

An absurdly top-heavy lineup where the expensive players are often not the best ones come the postseason in the first place. In less than 2 months, massive decisions must be made on 3 spoiled primadonnas that control absolutely everything and they know it. A brutal goaltending situation. Little cap flexibility. No draft picks and a prospect pool shallower than a piss puddle, making a potential rebuild all the more difficult and time-consuming. A slow, expensive lineup that lacks depth, scoring and compete. Who cares about the regular season?

No, he's not Jim Benning but Jesus christ we are not in the greatest of spots and a lot of that is the fault of Kyle Dubas.

Left us with 3 draft picks this year. Would have been 2 if he did not trade Sandy. "All For Nothing" is Kyle's legacy in Toronto.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'm looking forward to Dubas-less era!
Change is needed

 

[yianik]

Not signing Corey Perry - - a proven champion and the type of aggressive player you need in the playoffs - - when Perry badly wanted to sign with Toronto for a minimum salary deal.

Habs signed Perry and Staal, grizzled vets , leaders, who have won the Cup and pay the price to win. Dubas signed Thornton and Spezza, 2 soft guys who in their prime could put points up, and never won the Cup.

You nailed it. Dubas signed Queensberry Rules tough like Simmonds, but he shied away ftom junkyard dogs like Kadri, Perry, the actual guys he needed to win.

 

[Donnie740]

So you must be very excited about Brad Trevliving then, huh?

I mean, after all, the Maple Leafs appear to be clamouring over him. In fact, I am reading and hearing *a lot* more about the Maple Leafs interest in Trevling then I am about anyone being interested in Dubas, so he must be the unemployed GM with the most clamouring going on, too that's a real testament to his abilities as a GM.

Surely that means that Trevling is a better GM than Dubas, right?

I’m absolutely 100% certain that if Treliving takes over as GM, the Leafs will win more than just one playoff series over the next half decade.

And that’s with the mess he’s going yo have to clean up from Dubas.

So yes, I’m legitimately THRILLED at Brad Treliving - - or pretty much any other past or present GM not named Gord Stellick - - taking over for that incompetent gimp Dubas.