#87 Sidney Crosby Milestone Thread - History will be made (600 goals, 1600 points)

[Zalos]

I think both Crosby and Ovechkin end their career in the top 10 all-time. They'll have between 1650 and 1750 points total. Hopefully Ovechkin hits 900 goals.

 

[Megahab]

Wouldn't this be true even if you go further back than 2006-2007? Does anyone in this century have more regular season points (tied with Ovechkin) or more playoff points than Crosby?

 

[PlayersLtd]

Just curious, what would it take for Crosby to surpass Lemieux as the greatest Penguin player?

Obviously not comparing him to Mario’s role as an owner and franchise savior, that’s a different thing. And not suggesting he’s a “better player”. But in terms of achievements as a Penguin player, what’s the boundary?

- He’s 320 points behind Mario for the franchise record, which certainly seems doable.
- He will almost certainly take the record for assists, though goals might be a challenge (he would need 175 more).
- Already has a large lead for franchise GP.
- Already building on his lead as the team’s longest tenured captain.
- Crosby leads Mario in Cups (3-2) and is tied in Conn Smythes (2-2).
- Mario still has the advantage in Harts (3-2), Rosses (6-2), goalscoring/Richards (3-2). Mario has one more season as a 1st All Star center.

If Crosby wins another Cup with a Conn Smythe attached, does that push him over the top? Or is this more about having another Hart season? Or is it about compiling the career totals? All of the above? Or is it just impossible for him to compete with Mario’s aura?

I wish it was a debate but it really isn't.

Based on career ppg, had Mario played the same 1100 games as Sid he would have put up 2,075 points, or 645 more points than what Sid has. To put that in perspective, if Mario had an 'average' career in terms of games played, Sid would need to play 6 more seasons than Mario at his current career ppg before he catches up. The margin between the two from here, as Sid slows down later in his 30's, becomes even greater as the delta grows between Mario's 1.88 ppg and whatever Sid finishes his career with.

Sidney could perhaps have a more *decorated* legacy as a Penguin should he get some more hardware, but no way could it every be as *great* as Mario's. I personally think it's impossible on numbers alone. Let's also not forget that Mario battled cancer (twice) and played most of his career with a worse back than my grandma's.

The Mario vs Wayne debate is closer than the Sid vs Mario debate imo.

 

[Dominance]

Even with all the games lost to injury and lockouts and COVID - the barriers have been simply incredible - Crosby will enter the top-10 in era-adjusted point scoring before the end of this season.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (2475), 2. Gordie Howe (2190), 3. Jaromír Jágr (2080), 4. Sidney Crosby (1823), 5. Alex Ovechkin (1805), 6. Mark Messier (1732), 7. Ron Francis (1711), 8. Joe Thornton (1692), 9. Joe Sakic (1679), 10. Steve Yzerman (1650)

www.hockey-reference.com

Crosby will very likely finish his career 4th on this list - again, even with all the BS that has limited his GP.

 

[daver]

Only six secondary assists away from #25 all-time.

Can he get there this year? I think it depends how many home games they have left. Crosby beasts in games when there is "home" scoring.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I hate that we were cheated out of seeing the best prime years of Crosby's career for rats taking runs at him and never having to answer the bell
not like they would back when Gretzky played them and it shows
We don't pay to watch 3rd/4th liners taking out the True Stars of the league

 

[orby]

Even with all the games lost to injury and lockouts and COVID - the barriers have been simply incredible - Crosby will enter the top-10 in era-adjusted point scoring before the end of this season.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (2475), 2. Gordie Howe (2190), 3. Jaromír Jágr (2080), 4. Sidney Crosby (1823), 5. Alex Ovechkin (1805), 6. Mark Messier (1732), 7. Ron Francis (1711), 8. Joe Thornton (1692), 9. Joe Sakic (1679), 10. Steve Yzerman (1650)

www.hockey-reference.com

Crosby will very likely finish his career 4th on this list - again, even with all the BS that has limited his GP.

Thornton in 6th place all time is a pretty wild stat. I guess it reflects that he put up a lot of his points in a low scoring era.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I wish it was a debate but it really isn't.

Based on career ppg, had Mario played the same 1100 games as Sid he would have put up 2,075 points, or 645 more points than what Sid has. To put that in perspective, if Mario had an 'average' career in terms of games played, Sid would need to play 6 more seasons than Mario at his current career ppg before he catches up. The margin between the two from here, as Sid slows down later in his 30's, becomes even greater as the delta grows between Mario's 1.88 ppg and whatever Sid finishes his career with.

Sidney could perhaps have a more *decorated* legacy as a Penguin should he get some more hardware, but no way could it every be as *great* as Mario's. I personally think it's impossible on numbers alone. Let's also not forget that Mario battled cancer (twice) and played most of his career with a worse back than my grandma's.

The Mario vs Wayne debate is closer than the Sid vs Mario debate imo.

I see what you’re saying about the overall greatness angle, but PPG doesn’t mean much when comparing an 80s/90s player to a 2000s player. Patrick Kane is definitely better than Michel Goulet.

And while Lemieux definitely was held back by cancer and injury, those factors also led to his sitting out hundreds of post-prime games, most which would have been played during the Dead Puck scoring drop. It’s hard to say how that balances out in terms of PPG… maybe he keeps scoring almost 2 points a game if he plays full schedules every year, but that seems doubtful. Whereas Crosby’s missed time came right in the peak of his career, 20-25, which almost certainly lowered his career PPG and also likely accounts for much of the gap between his trophy case and Lemieux’s.

 

[PlayersLtd]

I see what you’re saying about the overall greatness angle, but PPG doesn’t mean much when comparing an 80s/90s player to a 2000s player. Patrick Kane is definitely better than Michel Goulet.

And while Lemieux definitely was held back by cancer and injury, those factors also led to his sitting out hundreds of post-prime games, most which would have been played during the Dead Puck scoring drop. It’s hard to say how that balances out in terms of PPG… maybe he keeps scoring almost 2 points a game if he plays full schedules every year, but that seems doubtful. Whereas Crosby’s missed time came right in the peak of his career, 20-25, which almost certainly lowered his career PPG and also likely accounts for much of the gap between his trophy case and Lemieux’s.

Lemieux's numbers in the early dead puck era were other worldly and he maintained a very impressive clip when he returned so I don't think his lost years would have moved the needle much on his ppg. In fact, had he played those he would have ended his career #2 in NHL points and that probably would have buried any Sid vs Mario debate even further. Conversely, he lost a lot of games to injury in his prime, had he played those it's likely that he would have finished his career at over 2.0 ppg.

There's also the eye test. People can debate numbers until their faces turn blue but if you watch Mario Lemieux throughout almost the entirety of his career, his domination relative to his competition was on Gretzky's level. He impacted the play on the ice as much as literally anyone who ever played the game. Sid's game is incredibly eye catching because of the intensity he plays with, but he is not nearly as dominant game in game out as Lemieux was.

And trying to factor the injury angle I really don't think benefits Sid. Mario's highest gp in a season was 79 which he did once, Sid has played 79 or more 7 times in his career. I think that speaks volumes to what Mario was battling for his entire career. Had he experienced a more or less injury free career he very well could have surpassed Gretzky and of course no one is comparing Sid to Gretzky. Again, I think the Mario vs Gretzky debate is closer than the Sid vs Mario debate.

 

[daver]

Just curious, what would it take for Crosby to surpass Lemieux as the greatest Penguin player?

Obviously not comparing him to Mario’s role as an owner and franchise savior, that’s a different thing. And not suggesting he’s a “better player”. But in terms of achievements as a Penguin player, what’s the boundary?

- He’s 320 points behind Mario for the franchise record, which certainly seems doable.
- He will almost certainly take the record for assists, though goals might be a challenge (he would need 175 more).
- Already has a large lead for franchise GP.
- Already building on his lead as the team’s longest tenured captain.
- Crosby leads Mario in Cups (3-2) and is tied in Conn Smythes (2-2).
- Mario still has the advantage in Harts (3-2), Rosses (6-2), goalscoring/Richards (3-2). Mario has one more season as a 1st All Star center.

If Crosby wins another Cup with a Conn Smythe attached, does that push him over the top? Or is this more about having another Hart season? Or is it about compiling the career totals? All of the above? Or is it just impossible for him to compete with Mario’s aura?

If Gordie Howe is rated above Mario then there is some room for this possibility. Longevity of prime, playoff success, 2-way play, could all factor in.

But let's let Crosby meet the criteria for being the consensus #5 player first.

 

[Dessloch]

 

[Mr Buckles]

Rakell seems to be pretty good at setting up Crosby for goals.

 

[Forceofnature]

Crosby, Malkin and Jagr is tied for most game winning goals in penguins history.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Crosby, Malkin and Jagr is tied for most game winning goals in penguins history.
View attachment 534741

An embarrassment of riches

 

[NigerianNightmare]

From a future Wikipedia article:

Sidney Crosby - the second best Pittsburgh Penguins centerman of the Ovechkin era.

 

[wetcoast]

From a future Wikipedia article:

Sidney Crosby - the second best Pittsburgh Penguins centerman of the Ovechkin era.

Well Jeff Carter better step it up then eh?

 

[Dessloch]

Crosby, Malkin and Jagr is tied for most game winning goals in penguins history.
View attachment 534741

Jagr 78 GW in 806 games
Malkin 78 GW in 978 games
Crosby 78 GW in 1105 games
Mario 74 GW in 915 games

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Well Jeff Carter better step it up then eh?

Sorry dear. Carter needs a Conn Smythe for that

 

[wetcoast]

Sorry dear. Carter needs a Conn Smythe for that

It was a sarcastic answer to an obviously sarcastic post by you but it you believe that Malkin is better than Crosby feel free to explain and then get ridiculed and rightly so.

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Jagr 78 GW in 806 games
Malkin 78 GW in 978 games
Crosby 78 GW in 1105 games
Mario 74 GW in 915 games

Looks like a joke in comparison to Ovechkin's GWG total

 

[NigerianNightmare]

It was a sarcastic answer to an obviously sarcastic post by you but it you believe that Malkin is better than Crosby feel free to explain and then get ridiculed and rightly so.

Nothing to explain. Malkin's peak performance was better. You can ask Crosby

 

[wetcoast]

Nothing to explain. Malkin's peak performance was better. You can ask Crosby

I guess you think that Sittler was better than Gretzky then eh?

Also Malkin's peak performance wasn't any better than Crosby anyways and consistency in excellence is what matters right?

 

[NigerianNightmare]

I guess you think that Sittler was better than Gretzky then eh?

Also Malkin's peak performance wasn't any better than Crosby anyways and consistency in excellence is what matters right?

Sittler was Gretzky's teammate and a Smythe winner?

A better comparison would be Sakic & Forsberg

 

[jigglysquishy]

In any kind of rationale historical rankings, there is no argument for Malkin over Crosby.

 

[wetcoast]

Sittler was Gretzky's teammate and a Smythe winner?

A better comparison would be Sakic & Forsberg

You are really going to say that Malkin was better than Crosby based on a single post season where the Red wings game planned against Crosby and not Malkin?

Heck one can make a very good argument that Crosby was just as good as Malkin that post season anyways.