50 goals, 40 assists = 30 goals and how many assists?

[ole ole]

Player A has 50 goals and 40 assists.

Player B has 30 goals. How many assists would you say he needs to have an equivalent offensive impact as player A?

Assume there is no distinction between primary and secondary assists.

60 assist.
Just imagine if 50 of those assist came on the other player scoring 50 goals. He'd still be setting up another 10 goals.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I wouldn't value primary assists the same as goal, but I also wouldn't say a primary assist is worth 0.5-0.6 goal either like I saw some study from an analytics guy. To me, goal >= primary assists >> secondary assist, which are literally pointless in evaluating players since they're mostly noise. I'd say something like 1 primary = 0.75-0.9 goal, and 1 secondary = 0.05-0.10 goal.

See this thread - Examining the value of the secondary assist

In recent history, for forward and at even strength, a goal and primary assist have virtually the same value. Secondary assists have quite a bit less - about two-thirds of a goal.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

See this thread - Examining the value of the secondary assist

In recent history, for forward and at even strength, a goal and primary assist have virtually the same value. Secondary assists have quite a bit less - about two-thirds of a goal.

Never saw your thread. Will definitely take a read later.

 

[780il]

I'd say 70-75

 

[biotk]

When a team wins a game in which they scored 3 goals, all with 2 assists, so 9 total points, over a team that scores 4 goals, all with 1 assist, so 8 total points, then I will consider assists to be as valuable as goals.

 

[Saltcreek]

When a team wins a game in which they scored 3 goals, all with 2 assists, so 9 total points, over a team that scores 4 goals, all with 1 assist, so 8 total points, then I will consider assists to be as valuable as goals.

This is a flawed argument. What percentages of goals scored are unassisted and how many games have multiple unassisted goals by a single team?

I am willing to bet that these numbers are very low.

 

[biotk]

This is a flawed argument. What percentages of goals scored are unassisted and how many games have multiple unassisted goals by a single team?

I am willing to bet that these numbers are very low.

Not a single goal in my scenario was unassisted, but thanks for coming out.

 

[Saltcreek]

Not a single goal in my scenario was unassisted, but thanks for coming out.

Oop . You are correct. My apologies, insomnia getting the better of me.

 

[Regal]

See this thread - Examining the value of the secondary assist

In recent history, for forward and at even strength, a goal and primary assist have virtually the same value. Secondary assists have quite a bit less - about two-thirds of a goal.

I've talked about this before in threads where the predictability is tested, and I wonder at what point the differences are largely due to variance. Essentially the larger the number, the less random variance is going to affect it, since a difference of 1 is a smaller impact on points than total assists, which is a smaller impact than primary assists, etc.

 

[Ciccarelli]

Assists are super cookie cutter stat in otherwise a very manly sport. You see big guys with beards and all going to the refs to get a secondary assist for leaving the puck to another D behind your own goal. Wow, you really contributed to the goal greatly. I would be fine with crediting one guy with the assist, but really football has it right, only goals count.

 

[1865]

60 there is no difference in value of assists and goals 0+51 is better than 50+0.

I mean, technically there is.

There's 2 assists available per goal scored after all. A team could have a pair of 50 point players and only have scored 50 total goals after all. Having two 50 goal scorers means you've scored 100, it is much more desirable and it's a harder act than getting 50 assists. That's why last season 31 players registered 51 assists whereas only 2 scored 50 goals.

For me, a 50 + 30 season is as impressive and valuable as a 30 + 80.

 

[Paul4587]

But if Ovechkin gets 0+51 it's not better.

we have ourselves a broken record here.

 

[MXD]

60, all things being equal, which they never quite are.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

50 + 40 = 30 + x

90 = 30 + x

90 - 30 = x

60 = x

x = 60

 

[Qward]

Wait, what time did the train leave Cleveland again?

 

[wetcoast]

I mean, technically there is. 2 assists per goal potentially. A team could have 2 50 point players and only have scored 50 goals after all. Two 50 goal scorers is much better and is much harder than getting 50 assists. That's why 31 people got 51 assists whereas only 2 scored 50 goals.

For me, a 50 + 30 season is as impressive and valuable as a 30 + 80.

So let's take a real example here.

Is Jonathan Cheechoo really more valuable than Joe Thornton in 05-06?

Cheechoo 82-56-37-93
Thornton 81-29-96-125

The difference from your example is that Cheechoo has 6 more goals and 7 more assists and Jumbo Joe has one less goal and 16 more assists.

Clearly using your example Jonathan was more impressive and valuable than Jumbo Joe right?

Cleary the Hart voters saw things really differently that year.

Also note how many 50 and 40 plus goal scorers fared that year.

 

[895]

So let's take a real example here.

Is Jonathan Cheechoo really more valuable than Joe Thornton in 05-06?

Cheechoo 82-56-37-93
Thornton 81-29-96-125

The difference from your example is that Cheechoo has 6 more goals and 7 more assists and Jumbo Joe has one less goal and 16 more assists.

Clearly using your example Jonathan was more impressive and valuable than Jumbo Joe right?

Cleary the Hart voters saw things really differently that year.

Also note how many 50 and 40 plus goal scorers fared that year.

Voters and fans alike saw that it was Thornton feeding Cheechoo.

If Cheechoo was putting up those numbers by himself on a different team, it would be a different story.

If you want a counter example, look at the 2011 voting when Corey Perry won it over Daniel.

 

[wetcoast]

Voters and fans alike saw that it was Thornton feeding Cheechoo.

If Cheechoo was putting up those numbers by himself on a different team, it would be a different story.

If you want a counter example, look at the 2011 voting when Corey Perry won it over Daniel.

Did you even look at the players from other teams and the lines they had that year?

Danny Heatley 50-53-103 distant 10th in voting.

Even Ovechkin was only 6th in voting with a 52-54-106 line.

Also the Perry example doesn't support the assertion I was responding to as Perry only had 9 more goals than Daniel and Daniel had only 6 more points.

If 50-30-80 is clearly as valuable as 30-80-110 we would see most examples of this spread actually make sense but in reality it doesn't.

Heck even look at the next year 06-07 when you see these 2 lines

Crosby 36-84-120
Lecavalier 50-52-56-108

Using the example I was replying to and the one you seem to be supporting then you would have to argue that Vinny was a better player than Crosby that year?

That makes zero sense.

 

[895]

Did you even look at the players from other teams and the lines they had that year?

Danny Heatley 50-53-103 distant 10th in voting.

Even Ovechkin was only 6th in voting with a 52-54-106 line.

Also the Perry example doesn't support the assertion I was responding to as Perry only had 9 more goals than Daniel and Daniel had only 6 more points.

If 50-30-80 is clearly as valuable as 30-80-110 we would see most examples of this spread actually make sense but in reality it doesn't.

Heck even look at the next year 06-07 when you see these 2 lines

Crosby 36-84-120
Lecavalier 50-52-56-108

Using the example I was replying to and the one you seem to be supporting then you would have to argue that Vinny was a better player than Crosby that year?

That makes zero sense.

I just don't think Hart trophy voting means all that much for this poll question. There are so many more narratives at play for the Hart. I just took issue with your Cheechoo example.

I still think Jagr deserved the Hart over Thornton that year by the way.

 

[RefalancheStillLose]

50 + 40 = 30 + x

90 = 30 + x

90 - 30 = x

60 = x

x = 60

Holy shit are you of Asian decent by chance ? You just did voodoo with numbers and letters

 

[dr robbie]

I think assists should be more valuable than goals because they make goals look cooler. 3 goals = 2 primary assists = 1.5 secondary assists = 1.25 tertiary assists. Only way this makes sense.

/sarcasm if you don't catch it - I'm just tired of this never ended discussion with biased people on both ends pulling for "their guy"

 

[wetcoast]

I just don't think Hart trophy voting means all that much for this poll question. There are so many more narratives at play for the Hart. I just took issue with your Cheechoo example.

I still think Jagr deserved the Hart over Thornton that year by the way.

The formula that 50-30 + 30-80 is ridiculous when put to the test that was the point, Cheechoo wasn't the only example that year.

They are out there year after year.

 

[Zuluss]

Danny Heatley 50-53-103 distant 10th in voting.

Even Ovechkin was only 6th in voting with a 52-54-106 line.

Hart voting is notorious for snubbing players on non-playoff team.
A glaring example from today is McDavid.
Ovechkin in 05/06 was nominated for Lindsay (then Pearson).

 

[wetcoast]

Hart voting is notorious for snubbing players on non-playoff team.
A glaring example from today is McDavid.
Ovechkin in 05/06 was nominated for Lindsay (then Pearson).

Fair enough take Hart voting out of it, do (you) people think that Cheechoo, Heatley, Ovechkin and Kovalchuk (all guy with 50 goals and Kovo had the lowest points with 98) were all better than Thornton that year?

The formula presented to me 50-30-80=30-80-110 would mean yes right?

The formula I was responding to simply doesn't hold water.

 

[KevSkillz4]

I'm the only one who think assist is more impressive than goal?!