Prospect Info: 33rd overall Roby Jarventie LW FIN

[BondraTime]

Both sides are valid it's called nature vs nature debate.

I understand fully what nature vs nurture is.

You could have an ex NHLer have 1 kid, and adopt 9. All the same age, all the same size, all the same resources. Which kid would have the highest chance at becoming a high level hockey player? The one with the NHL bloodlines at a very high majority of times.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Both sides are valid it's called nature vs nature debate.

And for something like performance in a sport it is impossible to determine which is responsible for excellence within an individual. But it's pretty much accepted that behaviour (I'd call sports a form of behaviour) is attributable to both nature and nurture.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I completely agree that athleticism runs in the family genes. I think its pretty clear as well.

 

[JungleBeat]

You’re not going to make the NHL by just being athletic. It has to do with having all the resources available to you since birth, I’m sure these ex NHL players are spending $20k + a year on their kids to play elite hockey.

 

[Masked]

You’re not going to make the NHL by just being athletic.

Yes, but there's a certain level of athleticism required to make the NHL. If you don't have it, you'll never be able to make it. And it's a rare level to have.

 

[BK201]

I understand fully what nature vs nurture is.

You could have an ex NHLer have 1 kid, and adopt 9. All the same age, all the same size, all the same resources. Which kid would have the highest chance at becoming a high level hockey player? The one with the NHL bloodlines at a very high majority of times.

Impossible to determine considering your negating 9 other blood lines in your example. Just because this person's parents are successful athletes doesn't mean someone elses parents that never even tried athletics doesn't have good athletic genes.

 

[BondraTime]

Impossible to determine considering your negating 9 other blood lines in your example. Just because this person's parents are successful athletes doesn't mean someone elses parents that never even tried athletics doesn't have good athletic genes.

No I’m not, I’m saying 1 player has NHL bloodlines, the others don’t. That’s the bloodlines I’m using. Maybe their parents played high level soccer, or baseball, or running? Maybe they never played anything, Just 10 kids, one of which h

Give all the kids the same resources, the one most “likely” to reach higher, is the one with NHL bloodlines.

Run this experiment 100 times, it will have a very strong majority where the kid with Bloodlines becomes the better hockey player.

Not sure what to tell you if you think kids with parents that weren’t athletes have the same odds at becoming high level hockey players as kids with NHL bloodlines, because that’s just incorrect.

 

[Masked]

Impossible to determine considering your negating 9 other blood lines in your example. Just because this person's parents are successful athletes doesn't mean someone elses parents that never even tried athletics doesn't have good athletic genes.

Yes, but what are the chances that some random person has a parent with elite athletic genes? Very low.

 

[HSF]

I think it’s a bit of both not just genetics and not just the environment growing up

I think it’s why you see a lot of kids in med school who had parents who were doctors

Lots of kids unknowingly or knowingly want to be like their parents and follow their habits and such

also let’s not forget wealth

In sports genetics def helps

 

[BK201]

No I’m not, I’m saying 1 player has NHL bloodlines, the others don’t. That’s the bloodlines I’m using. Maybe their parents played high level soccer, or baseball, or running? Maybe they never played anything, Just 10 kids, one of which h

Give all the kids the same resources, the one most “likely” to reach higher, is the one with NHL bloodlines.

Run this experiment 100 times, it will have a very strong majority where the kid with Bloodlines becomes the better hockey player.

Not sure what to tell you if you think kids with parents that weren’t athletes have the same odds at becoming high level hockey players as kids with NHL bloodlines, because that’s just incorrect.

edit it made no sense

I would argue more players have played in the nhl without former player parents than players that have had nhl parents and that it is not a good enough arguement.

 

[JungleBeat]

What gives players with an NHL parent an edge is all the training they get from a young age and resources available to them. McDavid’s parents aren’t pro players (not sure) but they they shelled out thousands giving him special training and he turned out amazing. I’d argue it’s more about the money than some bloodlines.

 

[R2010]

What gives players with an NHL parent an edge is all the training they get from a young age and resources available to them. McDavid’s parents aren’t pro players (not sure) but they they shelled out thousands giving him special training and he turned out amazing. I’d argue it’s more about the money than some bloodlines.

I dunno. I come from a big family. Have 10+ cousins on both sides. All pretty similar financial background. All had lack of access to hockey specific training. Most played hockey at some point.

One side nearly every guy and girl ended up being decent to very good hockey players.
The other side none even became marginal players did despite being athletes in other sports.

All the cousins have kids now who are or at least were playing hockey. Guess which side has all the kids who are excelling at hockey?

Genes definitely play a role in what makes people good at certain things.

 

[BondraTime]

edit it made no sense

I would argue more players have played in the nhl without former player parents than players that have had nhl parents and that it is not a good enough arguement.

You don't need to argue that, of course there are more players without NHL parents, they outnumber them 1000+ to 1.

~99.9% of families don't have NHL bloodlines, that's the point. The amount of NHL/Pro bloodlines drafted every year is substantial, over/at 5-10% of kids drafted. When only 217 kids get drafted, and 20ish kids every year come from a very small fraction (0.1 NHLer/Pro vs 99.9 Non NHLer/Pro), it's a very significant number that isn't a coincidence

 

[JungleBeat]

I dunno. I come from a big family. Have 10+ cousins on both sides. All pretty similar financial background. All had lack of access to hockey specific training. Most played hockey at some point.

One side nearly every guy and girl ended up being decent to very good hockey players.
The other side none even became marginal players did despite being athletes in other sports.

All the cousins have kids now who are or at least were playing hockey. Guess which side has all the kids who are excelling at hockey?

Genes definitely play a role in what makes people good at certain things.

Definitely has to do with some natural talent, all the money couldn’t develop McDavids skill I agree. Hyman had tons of money shelled out on him but he doesn’t have any natural skill, but he’s still in the league.

What talent do you think is being passed down because of genes though? Puck skills, skating and what not are learned from a very young age.

This isn’t the NBA where having a 6’10” dad who’s athletic will give you a great advantage.

 

[BK201]

You don't need to argue that, of course there are more players without NHL parents, they outnumber them 1000+ to 1.

~99.9% of families don't have NHL bloodlines, that's the point. The amount of NHL/Pro bloodlines drafted every year is substantial, over/at 10% of kids drafted. When only 217 kids get drafted, and 20ish+ kids every year come from a very small fraction (0.1 NHLer vs 99.9 Non NHLer), it's a very significant number

Yes but my point has been lost i don't feel strongly against it but I can debate it all day my point is simply there are valid arguments on either side.

We even can go into depth of examples between us of busts a beauty's, which can turn into other more specific arguments including talking about the greatest players to ever play and thier blood lines but I think in the end we will find that there are many factors that produce athletes even from 2 parents that are basically completely useless. Or a useless athlete from 2 very athletic parents that we don't know about cause they can't play hockey so we don't hear about them.

To get a proper sample would be next to impossible to compare former players kids who became athletes to some level and those who do not.

I also don't want to go into genes and generations and all that tbh.

 

[Masked]

edit it made no sense

I would argue more players have played in the nhl without former player parents than players that have had nhl parents and that it is not a good enough arguement.

From Wikipedia there have been 209 NHLers whose dad played in the league. There have been approximately 8000 players in league history. Thus ~2.6% of NHLers have had dads who played in the league. Try and figure out how that compares to a random kid who starts playing hockey.

 

[BK201]

From Wikipedia there have been 209 NHLers whose dad played in the league. There have been approximately 8000 players in league history. Thus ~2.6% of NHLers have had dads who played in the league. Try and figure out how that compares to a random kid who starts playing hockey.

Your point is not clear here what are you comparing these numbers to 1 random kid I don't understand.

Your also forgetting 23 chromosones from the mother you guys are simplifying these things imo.

 

[JD1]

Holy f*** fellas

Kids inherit genes from their parents

News at 11

 

[Masked]

Your point is not clear here what are you comparing these numbers to 1 random kid I don't understand.

Your also forgetting 23 chromosones from the mother you guys are simplifying these things imo.

Yeah, I might not have framed it well. Lets assume each NHL player has 1 son. That's 8000 kids and 209 of them made the NHL. 209/8000 = 2.6% of making the NHL. What are the odds a random kid makes the NHL?

What am I forgetting about the mother's genes?

 

[JungleBeat]

Holy f*** fellas

Kids inherit genes from their parents

News at 11

Lol is there a gene for goal scoring?

 

[H2O]

Lol is there a gene for goal scoring?

Brett Hull said yes.

 

[JD1]

Lol is there a gene for goal scoring?

Ask Brett to check with Bobby

 

[Tuna99]

Ask Brett to check with Bobby

there was a Hull who played CFL

 

[Xspyrit]

You’re not going to make the NHL by just being athletic. It has to do with having all the resources available to you since birth, I’m sure these ex NHL players are spending $20k + a year on their kids to play elite hockey.

Yes, hockey is a very expensive sport, plus it takes a nordic climate. I don't think you're going to see a lot of kids from the Favela become NHL players.

Athlecism isn't an automatic thing, sure it helps to have great genes but developping a body is a long term project. You have to eat well, you have to sleep well and then you have to train well.

Many of of the points made in the discussion were valid, in the end there's no simple recipe, it's a wide variety of factors. It takes dedication and hard work to become an athlete. Kids who had the exemple of an athlete at home right from the start have an advantage because they have a model to follow

Ask Brett to check with Bobby

Pavel and Valeri Bure
Eric Lindros and Brett Lindros
Brett hull and Bart Hull, Blake Hull & Bobby Hull, Jr.
(we could find so many more examples)

Similar genes, different results. Genes plays a part obviously, even if you have hockey bloodlines or not, but it goes a lot further than that. Ambition, desire, interest, dedication, training, eating, sleeping, mental health, influence, etc etc etc, so many variations will give you different results.

I think it has been brought up but for example 2 similar twins with strong hockey bloodlines could give you 2 very different end results.

 

[aragorn]

Bloodlines help, money helps, being a good athlete helps, having decent size helps, having skill helps, good training helps, good coaching helps, staying healthy helps, the right environment helps, a great determination & desire to be the best helps, having good teammates, good family & friends help, lots of factors help.

The fact that having wealthy parents or a hockey parent who can afford to buy you the best equipment, the best training, great coaching & everything else you need to succeed also helps a great deal. But in the end if you have a certain skillset & desire that allows you to be successful at every level probably helps the most, lots of guys make it to the NHL with limited offensive skill, but fill other roles. Having a parent who has played in the NHL who can guide their child every step of the way can be extremely helpful with most of these things, but the kid has to want it for himself.