Post-Game Talk: #28 - 12/02/18 | jets @ RANGERS | 6:00 - MSG

[ReggieDunlop68]

The first season out of the lockout, the Rangers were much better than anyone anticipated, and really only had a bad three week stretch the entire season. It just so happened right at the end of the season, coinciding with the Devils getting ridiculously hot. That team was on pace for about 107 points, and should have wrapped up their division after beating Boston on a Saturday afternoon in early April. They only really needed 2 more points. I believe Jagr tweaked something and Hank never told anyone about his headaches.

Who knows what might have happened, but if Drury doesn't score with 7.7 seconds left in Game #5 of that second round series in 2006-07, the Rangers probably beat Buffalo, and get to the ECF, maybe even beat Ottawa and get to the Finals. That team was better than most thought.

I don't think Gomez is ever signed in that scenario. Drury, maybe.

Even without McD, that defensive core was coming along. I know the hate currently for Staal and Girardi, but they were pretty damn good before 2010. Sauer had the potential to be a long time Ranger on the blueline.

Yeah again there is still the unknown butterfly effect. What is know is that the Rangers should've held the reigns just a bit considering we had just come off the worst part of Rangers history where even the league almost collapsed.

You take what we had + pragmatism from 2006-2010, and you would've had a serious force to be reckoned with.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I think you're underestimating how much salaries have risen in the past couple of years. Middle six players and middle pairing defensemen make $6M now.

Yeah you are correct. It's not the AAV at all with me. It was a plausible signing at the time given his recent performance. I seriously don't know what his deal is now.

 

[NCRanger]

Yeah. He was on fire for a bit, so MSG would have still had name power, but we wouldn't have flown too high or committed too much money for **** until the King became completely dominant by 2010. By drafting, trading, and smarter free agency + a splash in a run, I believe it would have played out better than it did.

It's interesting to think how things may have played out.

I think Jagr may have taken another 3 or 4 year deal after 2008, if he felt the Rangers were on the cusp of a Cup. HOWEVER, the way he was being treated by the league, opposing fans, and officials, probably was more of a reason for going to the KHL for tax free money than any potential Ranger success.

If you remember, he was being treated brutally by the Pittsburgh fans, which translated into him being booed in every arena he entered. Fans were seeing him as what "the Rangers did to cause the lockout". The guy did NOTHING wrong, other than wearing a Ranger jersey at the end of the last decade.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Cups are hard to win, it's gotten harder with the salary cap. I look at the Leafs and they all feel they are winning a cup this year and I counter with Tampa who I believe matches up quite well in the forward department but blows them away on d,or Winnipeg same thing. We won a lot of playoff games the last number of years, it could have been a goal here or there that cost us a cup, it's just not easy.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

It's interesting to think how things may have played out.

I think Jagr may have taken another 3 or 4 year deal after 2008, if he felt the Rangers were on the cusp of a Cup. HOWEVER, the way he was being treated by the league, opposing fans, and officials, probably was more of a reason for going to the KHL for tax free money than any potential Ranger success.

If you remember, he was being treated brutally by the Pittsburgh fans, which translated into him being booed in every arena he entered. Fans were seeing him as what "the Rangers did to cause the lockout". The guy did NOTHING wrong, other than wearing a Ranger jersey at the end of the last decade.

Yeah I even hated when the fans booed him when he went to Washington. I mean I know he didn't play well, but he didn't want to take the Mario casino deal. He wanted his contract money. You can't really blame him when no one knew for sure the league would back Pittsburg so much.

 

[True Blue]

Yeah you are correct. It's not the AAV at all with me. It was a plausible signing at the time given his recent performance. I seriously don't know what his deal is now.

Do you believe that Shattenkirk is a $6m player right now?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Do you believe that Shattenkirk is a $6m player right now?

No he isn't, but I usually only attack a cap hit based on the time of signing, and at the moment, the only reason I wasn't super happy about that sighting was because I didn't think the Rangers should have been signing any big free agents post 2015.

 

[NYRFAN218]

It's interesting to think how things may have played out.

I think Jagr may have taken another 3 or 4 year deal after 2008, if he felt the Rangers were on the cusp of a Cup. HOWEVER, the way he was being treated by the league, opposing fans, and officials, probably was more of a reason for going to the KHL for tax free money than any potential Ranger success.

If you remember, he was being treated brutally by the Pittsburgh fans, which translated into him being booed in every arena he entered. Fans were seeing him as what "the Rangers did to cause the lockout". The guy did NOTHING wrong, other than wearing a Ranger jersey at the end of the last decade.

From what I remember, Jagr's biggest thing after the 08 season was he wanted to be the highest paid player on the team. He saw Drury and Gomez making 7+ mil and wanted that money too (he wasn't wrong in thinking that because he deserved it). The Rangers were pretty adamant too about not going beyond one year. This article states they only offered one year.

Jagr leaves NHL for Russian club Avangard Omsk

I think if the Rangers offered 3 x 7.5 he remains a Ranger.

 

[TheTakedown]

I would try to get two more fists, and I would also continue to focus on close-to-ready prospects and young NHL players with another step to take. ADA and Zibanejad have been great adds.

What else can we move? I think Skjei is what he is. A lot of teams would have use for Shattenkirk.

After that, I think we've run out of worthwhile pieces to move.

I don't see anyone else that could be of value.

McQuaid - 3rd (at most)
Zuccarello - 1st + Prospect
Rental Hayes - Nash-like return: 1st, Nice Prospect, throwaway player/bad contracts, meh prospect, chance to resign Hayes
Extended Hayes - Duchene-like Return: High-end D Prospect, Good Forward prospect, 2nd Round Pick, no chance to resign Hayes

I believe Namestnikov and Vesey are kept for another year, otherwise one is dealt for a 2nd rounder. You're not getting prospects back for these guys.

The rest of the defense is not tradeable at this point: DeAngelo, Pionk, and Claesson all look good and should be kept. Staal and Smith are anchor contracts, no way to move them, Shattenkirk will not be moved until the final year of his deal at the earliest.

Still, you're looking at the Rangers using their own pick in the top 10, pulling in two picks in the 15-27 range, and possibly Tampa's pick at #31. 4 1st rounders, and extra 3rd rounder, maybe a 2nd rounder for Vesey/Names

 

[Machinehead]

No he isn't, but I usually only attack a cap hit based on the time of signing, and at the moment, the only reason I wasn't super happy about that sighting was because I didn't think the Rangers should have been signing any big free agents post 2015.

You could make that argument, that we shouldn't be bringing in vets past a certain point, but it's not like we traded a 1st or a young player to get him, and it's not like he's winning us games by himself and ruining our draft picks. He's not overpaid to the point where he can't be moved. He doesn't have term to the point where he can't be moved. We don't care about cap right now - he was a free asset. He was a free asset that we may turn into futures. It'll end up being a very positive signing if we do so.

That's why I've never been of the belief that a rebuilding team has to ban themselves from free agency. They just have to be careful the with term. We were very good with the term in this case.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I don't see anyone else that could be of value.

McQuaid - 3rd (at most)
Zuccarello - 1st + Prospect
Rental Hayes - Nash-like return: 1st, Nice Prospect, throwaway player/bad contracts, meh prospect, chance to resign Hayes
Extended Hayes - Duchene-like Return: High-end D Prospect, Good Forward prospect, 2nd Round Pick, no chance to resign Hayes

I believe Namestnikov and Vesey are kept for another year, otherwise one is dealt for a 2nd rounder. You're not getting prospects back for these guys.

The rest of the defense is not tradeable at this point: DeAngelo, Pionk, and Claesson all look good and should be kept. Staal and Smith are anchor contracts, no way to move them, Shattenkirk will not be moved until the final year of his deal at the earliest.

Still, you're looking at the Rangers using their own pick in the top 10, pulling in two picks in the 15-27 range, and possibly Tampa's pick at #31. 4 1st rounders, and extra 3rd rounder, maybe a 2nd rounder for Vesey/Names

Why are we re-signing Hayes?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Why are we re-signing Hayes?

To be crescent fresh man...

 

[True Blue]

No he isn't, but I usually only attack a cap hit based on the time of signing, and at the moment, the only reason I wasn't super happy about that sighting was because I didn't think the Rangers should have been signing any big free agents post 2015.

I understand. But to teams trading for him, he is a $6m cap hit. But his level of play is nowhere near there. Which is why I doubt the size of the market place for him

 

[Machinehead]

One good thing is that we gave ourselves enough problems at forward (I would argue voluntarily) to not drag ourselves into the playoffs, but they're very fixable problems.

Our bottom 6 is bad and our depth is appalling.

However, this can be fixed in one July afternoon. Just get NHL players instead of not NHL players.

The Strome trade shows me Gorton can do this if he wants to. [and he had to pull the trigger on Spooner]

But for those of you positing that we're not committed to da tank, here it is.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Do you believe that Shattenkirk is a $6m player right now?

Hes barely a $3.5 m player right now...

He does nothing

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I understand. But to teams trading for him, he is a $6m cap hit. But his level of play is nowhere near there. Which is why I doubt the size of the market place for him

I do get you. I'm saying that my personal rule of thumb is I judge the contract based on the player and my perception of the player's impact and value over time. He's not with $6 mil now to say the least, but I try to not do that since I've seen the cap value and contracts taken out of context often in sport's talk.

So for example, let's say I thought Shattenkirk would be bust at the moment of signing, an there was zero inflation or cap raising since then.

I would say that he was not worth what he was.

Right now he's been playing so bad, maybe he's not worth $4 million, but would he have signed at $4? You know what I mean?

 

[kovazub94]

One good thing is that we gave ourselves enough problems at forward (I would argue voluntarily) to not drag ourselves into the playoffs, but they're very fixable problems.

Our bottom 6 is bad and our depth is appalling.

However, this can be fixed in one July afternoon. Just get NHL players instead of not NHL players.

The Strome trade shows me Gorton can do this if he wants to. [and he had to pull the trigger on Spooner]

But for those of you positing that we're not committed to da tank, here it is.

How do you figure "voluntary"?

Also, when everyone is healthy and until trades:

Namestnikov - Zibanejad - Buchnevich
Kreider - Hayes - Chytil
Vesey - Howden - Zuke
Strome - Andersson - Fast
Mcleod, Beleskey, Nieves, Fogs

That's a VERY good depth for a team in rebuild.

 

[Machinehead]

How do you figure "voluntary"?

Also, when everyone is healthy and until trades:

Namestnikov - Zibanejad - Buchnevich
Kreider - Hayes - Chytil
Vesey - Howden - Zuke
Strome - Andersson - Fast
Mcleod, Beleskey, Nieves, Fogs

That's a VERY good depth for a team in rebuild.

"When healthy" is a boogeyman in pro sports. Nobody ever is.

We don't have NHL players to step in outside of those 12. And I think we knew that.

 

[True Blue]

Right now he's been playing so bad, maybe he's not worth $4 million, but would he have signed at $4? You know what I mean?

Yup. Gotcha

 

[kovazub94]

"When healthy" is a boogeyman in pro sports. Nobody ever is.

We don't have NHL players to step in outside of those 12. And I think we knew that.

Not all injuries are created equal. The Rangers lost 3 top-6 forwards. And I don't know what kind of depth you'd expect - 2 of 3 replacement players had significant NHL experience in their past.

 

[Machinehead]

Not all injuries are created equal. The Rangers lost 3 top-6 forwards. And I don't know what kind of depth you'd expect - 2 of 3 replacement players had significant NHL experience in their past.

I'm expecting replacement level NHL guys. Lettieri and McLeod have played a lot of games for this team and are far below replacement level.

And again, I'm fine with that right now.

 

[JHS]

True. In looking at the Jagr era, what should have been the 2004-5 is the one that should have been the bottoming out year for the Rangers. Henke wasn’t coming over yet, and Nylander and Straka were not yet signed. Who knows where Jagr’s head would have been on a bad Ranger team at that point. Of course, the prior draft didn’t add much to the roster aside from Dubinsky and Callahan. Who knows, maybe they end up with Kopitar instead of Staal, and move Jagr and Holik for more picks and prospects. The lost year changed the direction of this franchise.

These years always stick out to me as years where the Rangers just made such bizarre moves by getting players on the downside of their careers or reach type guys that maybe could reignite their former selves. Jagr basically single handedly made them contenders and if you look back at this roster, it really was a “win at all costs” type set up.

Except for Hank, literally none of the other young guys amounted to anything! The success gave us fans the illusion we were close but the team was doing it on borrowed time!

2005-06 New York Rangers Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Larrybiv]

X-X
X-ADA
Skjei-Pionk

That’s...something lol

Or, if they can slot up.......you know, improve as they ARE YOUNG and learning......a little patience is needed here.

X-----ADA or Pionk
Skeji-----ADA or Pionk
X-----Claesson

Needing only a McD replica and any of the kids that may be deemed ready (or close) next year

Here's to hoping!

 

[Larrybiv]

I thought he was good in Ottawa, struggled in Montreal, and then looked better last night. In other words, he looked like a 20 year old rookie.

I often worry that we have these kids, especially Andersson, under such an intense microscope, that there's almost no way the kid could withstand that level of scrutiny.

But I also think that Quinn likes to bring in his younger talents slowly and try to soften the blow of the inevitable "come-down" when the pucks stop going in for young players. Sometimes it's a bit too cautionary for my tastes, but I "understand" what I'm seeing --- even if I don't 100 percent agree with it. In those scenarios, the odds of any young talent putting up eye-catching numbers is pretty slim. And, inevitably, putting numbers is the easiest way to gloss over holes and deficiencies.

Yup. I suppose placing young players on the 4th indicates there is "no immediate need" for scoring.......play your game, be involved, hit someone, and be responsible. Get the basics DOWN. no real scoring expectations, and most importantly.......little pressure as possible.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Anderson and Chytil will be good players,I have no doubt about that. The question marks are the guys who arent with the team yet who are key to the rebuild. Shestyerkin and Kravtsov look great in the KHL but ofcourse Nigel Dawes is the best player in that league so it's tough to judge how they measure against nhl'ers. Hajek looks like a player, Lundqvist is small, Miller looks good in college hockey, all these players are good where they are but can they make the jump and if so how long will it take. The khl players need to get here and get used to the nhl ice size,and as we saw with Buchnevich the training needed to compete here. College players need time to get used to a more rigorous schedule, so it might be a couple of years before any of them make any kinda impact like Chytil and Andersson will this year.
So with all that I do believe we need to add Panarin if possible,and maybe some more NHL veterans for roster filler next year. It sucks but once Hayes, Zuccarello etc are gone the replacements are currently Letterri and Fogarty....not ideal at all.