Salary Cap: 24 25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume Mmxxvii Retool over Time to Go for A Cup in 2026

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So the plan is to spin tires and not have an actual plan just like it has been since around 2021?
What @Pancakes laid out is essentially what Washington, though the Caps had a head start because Washington did a better job of developing prospects prior to the start of their rebuild.

McMichael was a 2019 1st round pick. Protas was a 2019 3rd round pick. Alexeyev was a 2018 1st round pick. Feheravy was a 2018 2nd round pick. They've also had Lapierre up at times (2020 1st round pick).

The only NHLer from the Penguins 2018 draft might be Filip Hallander, and he's in Europe at the moment. Calen Addison flamed out and is an AHL PP QB.

From 2019, Puustinen has played more NHL games than Poulin, Legare, or Caufield, though I guess there is hope that Poulin can be a bottom six guy while Puustinen is unlikely to get another NHL shot with the Pens.

From 2020, it's Blomqvist or bust.

The Caps also went out and used extra picks to acquire younger, NHL talent. What's stopping the Pens from pulling trades similar to to the Caps acquiring Dubois or Sandin or a Chychrun?

That's the plan. It's not foolproof, but there is a track record elsewhere.
 
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So the plan is to spin tires and not have an actual plan just like it has been since around 2021?
The plan is like @DesertedPenguin just outlined: a Washington-type rebuild.

Will it work? Who knows. I think Washington got lucky for theirs to work as well as it has, though they did make some undeniably shrewd moves along the way. But I think they also lucked out a bit with McMichael turning into what he has and Strome falling into their lap.

But there is precedent there for a quick turnaround rebuild.
 
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The plan is like @DesertedPenguin just outlined: a Washington-type rebuild.

Will it work? Who knows. I think Washington got lucky for theirs to work as well as it has, though they did make some undeniably shrewd moves along the way. But I think they also lucked out a bit with McMichael turning into what he has and Strome falling into their lap.

But there is precedent there for a quick turnaround rebuild.
Dallas did a similar thing. They really nailed some home runs with their 1sts and 2nds though.
 
What @Pancakes laid out is essentially what Washington, though the Caps had a head start because Washington did a better job of developing prospects prior to the start of their rebuild.

McMichael was a 2019 1st round pick. Protas was a 2019 3rd round pick. Alexeyev was a 2018 1st round pick. Feheravy was a 2018 2nd round pick. They've also had Lapierre up at times (2020 1st round pick).

The only NHLer from the Penguins 2018 draft might be Filip Hallander, and he's in Europe at the moment. Calen Addison flamed out and is an AHL PP QB.

From 2019, Puustinen has played more NHL games than Poulin, Legare, or Caufield, though I guess there is hope that Poulin can be a bottom six guy while Puustinen is unlikely to get another NHL shot with the Pens.

From 2020, it's Blomqvist or bust.

The Caps also went out and used extra picks to acquire younger, NHL talent. What's stopping the Pens from pulling trades similar to to the Caps acquiring Dubois or Sandin or a Chychrun?

That's the plan. It's not foolproof, but there is a track record elsewhere.

I thought we were following the Kings and the Rangers model?

Now, we are switching to the team that is successful this year?

That's exactly the issue that you aren't realizing. Dubas doesn't have a plan. He's just framed by you on to whatever is successful at the moment.

What's funny is I argued for moves the Caps made all summer. And if I remember correctly @DesertedPenguin you shit all over acquiring PLD...

But now "it's the caps model" we are mirroring.
 
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The plan is like @DesertedPenguin just outlined: a Washington-type rebuild.

Will it work? Who knows. I think Washington got lucky for theirs to work as well as it has, though they did make some undeniably shrewd moves along the way. But I think they also lucked out a bit with McMichael turning into what he has and Strome falling into their lap.

But there is precedent there for a quick turnaround rebuild.

Washington has been making smart moves for years.

"the plan" of doing a Washington-type rebuild is already f***ed up because Washington doesn't trade 1sts. Caps traded a 1st in 2021 and 2017. If you want to argue they traded a 1st for Sandin that's fine, but they still retained there's.

Dubas has been here 2 years and already burned a 1st for a 33 year old Erik Karlsson.

Where are the Kevin Hayes / Cody Glass acquisitions in the Capitals history?

They are doing things like signing Dylan Strome and Sonny Milano. We are acquiring Dewars and Lizottes.

They also fired their coaches.

The direction isn't similar.
 
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Dallas did a similar thing. They really nailed some home runs with their 1sts and 2nds though.

Dallas makes intelligent moves. Dallas has a pedigree of producing through the draft.

We have neither in nearly ten years.

Maybe Dubas does that, but his moves in Toronto do not reflect that.

Dallas currently has a player they signed to a solid deal that has 117 pts in 196 games that Dubas gave away for Maglin who had 4 points for Toronto. I'm not even including the 57 points he had in Florida.

This is the issue with Dubas. He doesn't surround himself or have the ability to identify players. The league is literred with picks, players and prospects he gave away for nothing that lead to success for Toronto.

Rutherford gets a pass because players he gave away still resulted in 3 cups in his career.
 
Mike Grier took what was a on paper loss for both EK, Timo and Hertl.

His team has the brightest future in the league right now. He pulled Dickinson, Mukhamadullin and Granlund who he flipped into another 1st in those trades.

Dubas talks about culture and the room because he can't move Rakell out.

It's just a failure to understand where the team is at and a failure to have the balls to put everything on the table to trust you know what it takes to get you to where you want to be.
 
I thought we were following the Kings and the Rangers model?

Now, we are switching to the team that is successful this year?

That's exactly the issue that you aren't realizing. Dubas doesn't have a plan. He's just framed by you on to whatever is successful at the moment.

What's funny is I argued for moves the Caps made all summer. And if I remember correctly @DesertedPenguin you shit all over acquiring PLD...

But now "it's the caps model" we are mirroring.
Sigh, you're not this dense. You're being contrarian for the hell of it.

The Penguins are in a unique position. There is no one model that they can follow because of it. They have to borrow from others. The Rangers and Kings kept a few key players - the Kings with Kopitar and Doughty, in particular - for their rebuilds. They drafted. And they started to introduce young players into the lineup. They were able to be a bit more patient because their stars weren't quite as old as the Pens' core. That said, they haven't been as aggressive, either.

That's why the Capitals model is also important to borrow from. Unlike the Pens, the Caps had a slightly deeper prospect pool to begin their quick pivot. So the Pens have had to take a moment to build those up. But like the Caps, the Pens have a bit more urgency to their process. The Caps wanted to give Ovechkin one last run. The Pens want to do the same. So the Caps used assets to acquire 23-26 year olds to speed up their rebuild.

Now, I still don't like PLD. He's played well. But I still think he'll piss down his leg when it matters, and I don't think he's someone you build a team around. That said, the acquisition of him has worked and players in situations like his should be who Dubas targets. Same with Sandin, which is a little ironic given that it was Dubas who traded him to Washington.

This is management 101, and it goes beyond sports. You take successful models and you see how you can apply elements to your own situation. There is rarely a 1-to-1 match, so you have to take pieces and put everything together in the hopes it'll work for you.
 
I thought we were following the Kings and the Rangers model?

Now, we are switching to the team that is successful this year?

That's exactly the issue that you aren't realizing. Dubas doesn't have a plan. He's just framed by you on to whatever is successful at the moment.

What's funny is I argued for moves the Caps made all summer. And if I remember correctly @DesertedPenguin you shit all over acquiring PLD...

But now "it's the caps model" we are mirroring.
Maybe if you email dubas he will tell you which model he plans on using
 
Dubas has been here 2 years and already burned a 1st for a 33 year old Erik Karlsson.

Where are the Kevin Hayes / Cody Glass acquisitions in the Capitals history?

They are doing things like signing Dylan Strome and Sonny Milano. We are acquiring Dewars and Lizottes.

They also fired their coaches.

The direction isn't similar.
The Capitals are further along in their process than the Pens are. Also, the Caps had more resources to begin their rebuilding process, so the Pens have had to catch up with Hayes/Glass type deals to accumulate picks.

Dubas was asked by FSG to make one last push in his first year. He explained that on the Dreger-Ferraro podcast shared earlier this week. It didn't work. He's only been rebuilding for 12 months.
 
Sigh, you're not this dense. You're being contrarian for the hell of it.

The Penguins are in a unique position. There is no one model that they can follow because of it. They have to borrow from others. The Rangers and Kings kept a few key players - the Kings with Kopitar and Doughty, in particular - for their rebuilds. They drafted. And they started to introduce young players into the lineup. They were able to be a bit more patient because their stars weren't quite as old as the Pens' core. That said, they haven't been as aggressive, either.

That's why the Capitals model is also important to borrow from. Unlike the Pens, the Caps had a slightly deeper prospect pool to begin their quick pivot. So the Pens have had to take a moment to build those up. But like the Caps, the Pens have a bit more urgency to their process. The Caps wanted to give Ovechkin one last run. The Pens want to do the same. So the Caps used assets to acquire 23-26 year olds to speed up their rebuild.

Now, I still don't like PLD. He's played well. But I still think he'll piss down his leg when it matters, and I don't think he's someone you build a team around. That said, the acquisition of him has worked and players in situations like his should be who Dubas targets. Same with Sandin, which is a little ironic given that it was Dubas who traded him to Washington.

This is management 101, and it goes beyond sports. You take successful models and you see how you can apply elements to your own situation. There is rarely a 1-to-1 match, so you have to take pieces and put everything together in the hopes it'll work for you.

So the plan is we just pretend we are following the successful one.

Glad you typed up 5 paragraphs on that.

Maybe if you email dubas he will tell you which model he plans on using

He'd be like "his plan is in his head".

The Capitals are further along in their process than the Pens are. Also, the Caps had more resources to begin their rebuilding process, so the Pens have had to catch up with Hayes/Glass type deals to accumulate picks.

Dubas was asked by FSG to make one last push in his first year. He explained that on the Dreger-Ferraro podcast shared earlier this week. It didn't work. He's only been rebuilding for 12 months.

So he's a dumbass who can't assess his team properly?

Got it and already knew it.

It's Sullivan 2.0 with you. You're about face in two years when you realize Dubas is completely over his head and has no clue what he is doing is going to be just as satisfying as with Sully.
 
When are the sharks supposed to be good? Next year? They haven’t finished above sixth in the pacific since 2018-19 so at some point all this tanking is going to pay off, right?

They have the best center prospect in the game and Eklund and Smith in the NHL on top of it.

They are also actually going to draft in the top 3.

They chose a direction.

If PIT had a prospect the quality of Eklund or Smith since Dubas came abroad I’d give him flowers.
 
Washington has been making smart moves for years.
Better late than never?
"the plan" of doing a Washington-type rebuild is already f***ed up because Washington doesn't trade 1sts. Caps traded a 1st in 2021 and 2017. If you want to argue they traded a 1st for Sandin that's fine, but they still retained there's.
Why is it already f***ed when Dubas has only pivoted (I said it again for you Pensx) to this plan as of last year's trade deadline?

Since he's changed gears the Pens have acquired a first, kept theirs, and acquired numerous other picks in addition to that. They should have the draft capital now to start being involved on young players that become available, and Dubas will probably keep a good portion of the picks he's amassed as well and hopefully use those to draft the next wave of young talent that the Pens desperately need.

Dubas has been here 2 years and already burned a 1st for a 33 year old Erik Karlsson.

Where are the Kevin Hayes / Cody Glass acquisitions in the Capitals history?
We've established that Dubas' moves prior to trying to rebuild were largely bad. Though I will say that most people denigrating the EK move are using hindsight to do that. I'd have to go back and look but I bet 99% of the board was in favor of that one when it happened.

Cody Glass was acquired and then flipped for a better asset in the same season. Not sure why you're denigrating that one? Like the Pens turned Cody Glass into a second, a third, and a sixth.
They are doing things like signing Dylan Strome and Sonny Milano. We are acquiring Dewars and Lizottes.
With the assets Dubas has acquired and the cap space that is opening up (both as a result of his moves and with the cap going up) the Pens should be well positioned to find Strome's and Milanos of their own. We'll see how that works out.

Last off season was easy. This off season is the one where Dubas now has to start executing on how to use these picks and cap space and turn that into the next wave of Pens talent.
They also fired their coaches.

The direction isn't similar.
Not firing Sullivan sucks. No debating that. If Dubas is smart he's not trying to contend after this season and is spending another season building. If that's the case then there might be some upside to keeping Sullivan around in the sense that it's going to lead to a likely top 10 pick this season and should return a similar pick next off season as well unless Dubas does something crazy like sign Marner.

The real question is, is Sullivan still around by the time the Pens are positioned to contend (or at least attempt to contend) again. And if he is, are the Pens willing to let him torpedo a season because they love him so much, or will they finally pull the plug if the next wave of Pens talent is there by that point and they still suck.
 
Better late than never?

Why is it already f***ed when Dubas has only pivoted (I said it again for you Pensx) to this plan as of last year's trade deadline?

Since he's changed gears the Pens have acquired a first, kept theirs, and acquired numerous other picks in addition to that. They should have the draft capital now to start being involved on young players that become available, and Dubas will probably keep a good portion of the picks he's amassed as well and hopefully use those to draft the next wave of young talent that the Pens desperately need.


We've established that Dubas' moves prior to trying to rebuild were largely bad. Though I will say that most people denigrating the EK move are using hindsight to do that. I'd have to go back and look but I bet 99% of the board was in favor of that one when it happened.

Cody Glass was acquired and then flipped for a better asset in the same season. Not sure why you're denigrating that one? Like the Pens turned Cody Glass into a second, a third, and a sixth.

With the assets Dubas has acquired and the cap space that is opening up (both as a result of his moves and with the cap going up) the Pens should be well positioned to find Strome's and Milanos of their own. We'll see how that works out.

Last off season was easy. This off season is the one where Dubas now has to start executing on how to use these picks and cap space and turn that into the next wave of Pens talent.

Not firing Sullivan sucks. No debating that. If Dubas is smart he's not trying to contend after this season and is spending another season building. If that's the case then there might be some upside to keeping Sullivan around in the sense that it's going to lead to a likely top 10 pick this season and should return a similar pick next off season as well unless Dubas does something crazy like sign Marner.

The real question is, is Sullivan still around by the time the Pens are positioned to contend (or at least attempt to contend) again. And if he is, are the Pens willing to let him torpedo a season because they love him so much, or will they finally pull the plug if the next wave of Pens talent is there by that point and they still suck.

So, basically we can take all the good things Dubas has done and ignore the bad things and we should have faith because if he keeps doing good things (despite not firing the coach and not trading Rakell the two biggest triggers in his pocket) he could possibly do good things moving forward?

The goal is to immediately kick start the rebuild. Nothing Dubas has done helps that.

Strome and Milano were signed as UFAs. Since become a GM, Dubas has signed Graves, Jarry, Eller, Acciari, Nieto, Lizotte, Beauvillier, Gryz, and Ned. Nothing here is a piece that helps us in the future.

If Dubas was smart this team would've already been contending based on the fact we have a 30+ goal W and a top 5 5v5 C and D. The reality is Dubas has been unable to build a playoff team around players still producing.

Cody Glass was acquired for a 3rd and turned into a 3rd. Nothing about that is changing our future.

Why are we forced to live in a hypothetical world with Dubas?

He's been shitty at making us a contending team. Just like he was shitty at making Toronto a contending team.

He's been average at drafting. Just like he was average at making Toronto an average team at drafting.

He's been shitty at signing players. Just like he was largely average to shitty signing players in Toronto.

What exactly is the reason we are giving Dubas a chance to suddenly improve?

He's unable to do anything he promises on, but he says some funny jokes and acquires some picks for nobodies so he's great.

I hate Jim Rutherford and I hated the Hornqvist for Neal trade. But that shaped the franchise moving forward.

Dubas trading a bunch of assets that would've benefited us to keep for EK65 and not doing anything to compete after giving away those assets has also shaped the franchise moving forward.
 
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So, basically we can take all the good things Dubas has done and ignore the bad things and we should have faith because if he keeps doing good things (despite not firing the coach and not trading Rakell the two biggest triggers in his pocket) he could possibly do good things moving forward?
More that because he's trying to rebuild we can probably have a modicum of faith that he's not going to repeat shit like Ryan Graves or Tristan Jarry.

Sullivan's continued presence is sort of irrelevant right now since the Pens are not expecting to contend. If he's still here after Dubas finishes his current goals then yeah, that's problematic.

Rakell should have been traded. I've agreed with you on that one.

The goal is to immediately kick start the rebuild. Nothing Dubas has done helps that.

Strome and Milano were signed as UFAs. Since become a GM, Dubas has signed Graves, Jarry, Eller, Acciari, Nieto, Lizotte, Beauvillier, Gryz, and Ned. Nothing here is a piece that helps us in the future.
Really? Nothing? Acquiring all of these picks is not kickstarting the rebuild?
If Dubas was smart this team would've already been contending based on the fact we have a 30+ goal W and a top 5 5v5 C and D. The reality is Dubas has been unable to build a playoff team around players still producing.
He's not trying to build a playoff team this year. He tried and failed to do it last year. Once that didn't work, he changed to trying to stock the team with young talent.

When the Pens clearly aren't trying to make the playoffs it's kinda weird to criticize Dubas for that.
Cody Glass was acquired for a 3rd and turned into a 3rd. Nothing about that is changing our future.
Nashville traded a third and a sixth for Glass, and then Dubas turned around and traded Glass for another third. So two thirds and a sixth and the only player the Pens lost in all of that was Jordan Frasca.
Why are we forced to live in a hypothetical world with Dubas?
We're not.

Pettersson: Good trade
Glass: Good trade
Guentzel: jury is out. Koivunen looks good as does Brunicke, but it's too early to tell.
DOC: good trade
Hayes: good trade
Beauvillier: good trade
Bunting: probably a good trade even if Novak busts because the Pens picked up Schenn and dealt him for a 2nd.

bad moves:

most of Dubas' first year shit outside of EK
He's been shitty at making us a contending team.
For the one year he tried to do that, yeah. His moves have been pretty solid since he switched gears.
He's been average at drafting. Just like he was average at making Toronto an average team at drafting.
Way too early to make this determination one way or the other.
He's been shitty at signing players. Just like he was largely average to shitty signing players in Toronto.
For his first year, absolutely. He's barely signed anyone of note his second year so unless you feel like beating him over the head for re-signing Ned or signing like Matt Gryzlyck or Blake Lizzotte....I mean who cares. Also did sign and turn Beauvillier into a 2nd. Pretty good work there.
What exactly is the reason we are giving Dubas a chance to suddenly improve?
Because his moves have been much better since establishing a new direction
Dubas trading a bunch of assets that would've benefited us to keep for EK65 and not doing anything to compete after giving away those assets has also shaped the franchise moving forward.
This is a critical off season for him and I think is ultimately the one that's going to shape his tenure as Pens GM more than his first two off seasons have.

He has EK to decide to trade or keep. Rakell to decide to trade or keep. Two first round draft picks to use. A load of draft capital to either sit on or try to use in trades. Cap space to do stuff if he wants to.
 
More that because he's trying to rebuild we can probably have a modicum of faith that he's not going to repeat shit like Ryan Graves or Tristan Jarry.

Sullivan's continued presence is sort of irrelevant right now since the Pens are not expecting to contend. If he's still here after Dubas finishes his current goals then yeah, that's problematic.

Rakell should have been traded. I've agreed with you on that one.


Really? Nothing? Acquiring all of these picks is not kickstarting the rebuild?

He's not trying to build a playoff team this year. He tried and failed to do it last year. Once that didn't work, he changed to trying to stock the team with young talent.

When the Pens clearly aren't trying to make the playoffs it's kinda weird to criticize Dubas for that.

Nashville traded a third and a sixth for Glass, and then Dubas turned around and traded Glass for another third. So two thirds and a sixth and the only player the Pens lost in all of that was Jordan Frasca.

We're not.

Pettersson: Good trade
Glass: Good trade
Guentzel: jury is out. Koivunen looks good as does Brunicke, but it's too early to tell.
DOC: good trade
Hayes: good trade
Beauvillier: good trade
Bunting: probably a good trade even if Novak busts because the Pens picked up Schenn and dealt him for a 2nd.

bad moves:

most of Dubas' first year shit outside of EK

For the one year he tried to do that, yeah. His moves have been pretty solid since he switched gears.

Way too early to make this determination one way or the other.

For his first year, absolutely. He's barely signed anyone of note his second year so unless you feel like beating him over the head for re-signing Ned or signing like Matt Gryzlyck or Blake Lizzotte....I mean who cares. Also did sign and turn Beauvillier into a 2nd. Pretty good work there.

Because his moves have been much better since establishing a new direction

This is a critical off season for him and I think is ultimately the one that's going to shape his tenure as Pens GM more than his first two off seasons have.

He has EK to decide to trade or keep. Rakell to decide to trade or keep. Two first round draft picks to use. A load of draft capital to either sit on or try to use in trades. Cap space to do stuff if he wants to.

2 3rds and a couple 2nds don't shape a rebuild.

So yeah, much like JR and Hextall he failed to understand his team.

Much like Rust and Zucker not being moved when they were UFA despite us being close to the playoffs we are sitting here wondering why Rakell wasn't moved.

I guess if you want to keep kicking the can to say "Dubas could make a great move", I'm fine with it, but the idea is he's getting 7 million to be a top 5 GM.

If you think he's been a top 5 GM since coming on, you're f***ing lying to yourself.
 
2 3rds and a couple 2nds don't shape a rebuild.

So yeah, much like JR and Hextall he failed to understand his team.

Much like Rust and Zucker not being moved when they were UFA despite us being close to the playoffs we are sitting here wondering why Rakell wasn't moved.

I guess if you want to keep kicking the can to say "Dubas could make a great move", I'm fine with it, but the idea is he's getting 7 million to be a top 5 GM.

If you think he's been a top 5 GM since coming on, you're f***ing lying to yourself.
I don't remember ever saying he's been a top 5 GM since coming on?

But yeah, he could still turn out. Who knows. We'll see.
 
I don't remember ever saying he's been a top 5 GM since coming on?

But yeah, he could still turn out. Who knows. We'll see.

"For the first time in a long time I feel like a Pens gm has a plan I trust. We will see how long he stays patient. If he tries to pivot too soon to trying to contend I won't be pleased."

I dunno man. I just feel like you're being optimistic as f*** about a guy who has one more many playoff round than Ron Hextall in the last ten years.
 

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