Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?

[Gurglesons]

there was a really good string of posts yesterday thoroughly discussing the whole '1st for jake' thing, but now that thats past some folks can get right back to acting like thats the harshest indictment of dubas imaginable.

dubas has been mediocre as hell, but that doesnt mean hes an abject disaster. he needed to be a wizard and he wasnt and it sucks

Not really. He needed to focus on young depth pieces and he didn’t. He added a bunch of 30-33 year olds with the exception of Graves and then resigned an absolute thorn in our side to a contract that is a disaster within less than 2 years.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

It's pretty funny to read all these comments about how Dubi is ruining the team like they aren't aware that he was hired with a mandate to compete for 2-3 years before being able to rebuild. hired, by the way, with input from the coach he can't fire.

Now that we're 1.5 years into the deal and almost guaranteed to be out of the POs for a 3rd year he's going to start tearing it down as has been reported.

I'd bet that Sully "resigns to focus on the Olympics" in the off-season and everyone w/o a NMC with value is moved.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jared McCann, Matheson, and Marino are nobodies. Nothing about them matters.

All of those pieces were traded for less valuable pieces that cost the Penguins assets.

Marino had the value of 2 2nds a year later, and was traded for Ty Smith (bust) and a 3rd. Matheson was traded for Petry, who the Penguins had to retain on and another team had to retain again and pay to move. McCann was traded for Hallander, who has yet to have a NHL impact and the only saving grace is the rumors that he's coming back this off-season.

You can think all of those guys wouldn't be making a difference on the team today while it's also true that Hextall gave them away for what amounted to zero value in the end. The 3rd he got for Marino basically cancels out the negative value they had to pay to get out of Petry's deal.

there was a really good string of posts yesterday thoroughly discussing the whole '1st for jake' thing, but now that thats past some folks can get right back to acting like thats the harshest indictment of dubas imaginable.

dubas has been mediocre as hell, but that doesnt mean hes an abject disaster. he needed to be a wizard and he wasnt and it sucks

I wouldn't even say Dubas has been mediocre, I think you can say he has been bad because of how disastrous his UFA signings have been. I just think it's silly to act like he has somehow hurt this team more than Hextall did.

The Graves and Jarry deals guarantee his UFA scores as atrocious, and it's still ugly beyond those two. His trades have been mostly mediocre, I think the collective "meh" that you can look at the McGroarty for Yager trade as really sets the tone for his trade record here. The draft looks promising so far, but it's far too early to judge that and give him credit for it.

 

[SEALBound]

Not really. He needed to focus on young depth pieces and he didn’t. He added a bunch of 30-33 year olds with the exception of Graves and then resigned an absolute thorn in our side to a contract that is a disaster within less than 2 years.

Maybe if he didn't have to pay out the nose to get rid of a bunch of 30-33 year old players, he would have had more assets to bring in younger players.

 

[Gurglesons]

Which is why you don't "get it". Which is why its useless to argue with you.

Don’t get what?

Marino has already been traded from the team we sent him to.

Matheson was a defensive disaster.

If the idea was EK65 and a bunch of bottoms six defensive forwards will save the team Dubas is incredibly terrible about evaluation. We can say he was only here for a year, but this is someone that was allegedly one of the brightest young minds in the game. You’d assume he had a plan when he came to us and would know what the Penguins needed.

I can tell you without a doubt the Penguins did not need any of Reilly Smith, Lars Eller, Noel Acciari, Ryan Graves and Matt Nieto and I said exactly that the day it happened. Everything I predicted about that team has come true and everyone now similar to the Jeff Carter contract pretends they said other wise.

 

[eXile3]

It's pretty funny to read all these comments about how Dubi is ruining the team like they aren't aware that he was hired with a mandate to compete for 2-3 years before being able to rebuild. hired, by the way, with input from the coach he can't fire.

Now that we're 1.5 years into the deal and almost guaranteed to be out of the POs for a 3rd year he's going to start tearing it down as has been reported.

I'd bet that Sully "resigns to focus on the Olympics" in the off-season and everyone w/o a NMC with value is moved.

I don’t what he’s been told but he’s said he’s trying to do a quick pivot like Washington.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe if he didn't have to pay out the nose to get rid of a bunch of 30-33 year old players, he would have had more assets to bring in younger players.

So we lost an effective player in Jared McCann, but Mikael Granlund who was pigeon holed into the exact same scenario and has produced better than McCann over the last two years was someone we had to pay to get out of and that was a good move by Dubas. Got it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

People get caught up too much in who wins and by how much.

To me it's as simple as "that guy did a piss poor job and the guy who replaced him is doing about the same." It's that simple. It doesn't really need to be cut this fine.

KD gets some rope to try to get out of some of this and I'll be curious to see what he does. But as of now dude has like well over 10M in utterly worthless cap. If they were straight tanking then whatever but they clearly aren't. I don't know that Ron Hextall, dumb as he was, ever allocated his resources so badly. The Graves and Jarry signings alone are... woof.

Also also I think some of you are mixing up your hate for pixies and the topic at hand lol

 

[Gurglesons]

It's pretty funny to read all these comments about how Dubi is ruining the team like they aren't aware that he was hired with a mandate to compete for 2-3 years before being able to rebuild. hired, by the way, with input from the coach he can't fire.

Now that we're 1.5 years into the deal and almost guaranteed to be out of the POs for a 3rd year he's going to start tearing it down as has been reported.

I'd bet that Sully "resigns to focus on the Olympics" in the off-season and everyone w/o a NMC with value is moved.

If Dubas does start tearing it down, I'll give him at least a pass for actually having a plan.

I think it's far more likely we see him try and make this team competitive once again this offseason. Which is frankly frightening.

lol Rakell just got hurt in practice.

 

[Empoleon8771]

People get caught up too much in who wins and by how much.

To me it's as simple as "that guy did a piss poor job and the guy who replaced him is doing about the same." It's that simple. It doesn't really need to be cut this fine.

KD gets some rope to try to get out of some of this and I'll be curious to see what he does. But as of now dude has like well over 10M in utterly worthless cap. If they were straight tanking then whatever but they clearly aren't. I don't know that Ron Hextall, dumb as he was, ever allocated his resources so badly. The Graves and Jarry signings alone are... woof.

Also also I think some of you are mixing up your hate for pixies and the topic at hand lol

Did the Penguins really have much less under Hextall? Carter firmly falls in that category and he was making like $3.5 million and I think you can argue Kapanen and Granlund were this for the Penguins as well. That whole "finally got out of Kapanen and McGinn only to trade a 2nd for Granlund" was one of the most baffling uses of cap space I've seen from a NHL GM.

Hextall just acquired significantly shorter term terrible deals while Dubas gave out 2 atrocious long-term deals.

 

[SEALBound]

I wouldn't even say Dubas has been mediocre, I think you can say he has been bad because of how disastrous his UFA signings have been. I just think it's silly to act like he has somehow hurt this team more than Hextall did.

The Graves and Jarry deals guarantee his UFA scores as atrocious, and it's still ugly beyond those two. His trades have been mostly mediocre, I think the collective "meh" that you can look at the McGroarty for Yager trade as really sets the tone for his trade record here. The draft looks promising so far, but it's far too early to judge that and give him credit for it.

This team has been a disaster in free agency for quite some time. You have to go back quite a while before you can pinpoint any free agency signing that was a net positive.

Tanev was close but had enough term to make you vomit. Nedeljkovich wasn't terrible last year but it lead to a resigning which was bad. I might be okay with Heinen and Boyle but they were largely irrelevant. Lizotte looks fine thus far.

Past that, there are several misses - some big like JMFJ, Graves, Carter, and Jarry, and some small. In hindsight, countless times we resigned a guy that we shouldn't have.

 

[Gurglesons]

Did the Penguins really have much less under Hextall? Carter firmly falls in that category and he was making like $3.5 million and I think you can argue Kapanen and Granlund were this for the Penguins as well. That whole "finally got out of Kapanen and McGinn only to trade a 2nd for Granlund" was one of the most baffling uses of cap space I've seen from a NHL GM.

Hextall just acquired significantly shorter term terrible deals while Dubas gave out 2 atrocious long-term deals.

Yeah, that's the point. It's really easy to move on from short term deals as evidence by Hextall being able to get out of most of his bad contracts for little to no effect.

That was also the whole point behind getting out of Marino and Matheson as well as not keeping Tanev and McCann, but people fail to understand that for some reason.

It was about having max cap flexibility every year so if the Penguins fell off a cliff he could easily sell.

The issue was he was likely being told by FSG he had to make a contender. So he signed those 4 big contracts and then continued to make low risk and low value trades which helped him keep 1sts for "the future".

The plan was very easy to see, Penguins fans just don't want to see it and blame him for some reason for the Penguins getting outcoached and outclassed in multiple playoff series.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Did the Penguins really have much less under Hextall? Carter firmly falls in that category and he was making like $3.5 million and I think you can argue Kapanen and Granlund were this for the Penguins as well. That whole "finally got out of Kapanen and McGinn only to trade a 2nd for Granlund" was one of the most baffling uses of cap space I've seen from a NHL GM.

Hextall just acquired significantly shorter term terrible deals while Dubas gave out 2 atrocious long-term deals.

Carter was the only egregiously stupid contract IMO. Kap and Granlund went away with no consequence. So did McGinn. We'll see if KD can pull the same trick with the 10+ million dollars owed to a goaltender who should probably be playing in Wheeling and whatever the f*** Graves is supposed to be.

Again this doesn't have to be a "point for in this column... point against in this... and as we see here... Kyle Dubas wins 27 to 25," They both suck and they both did/are doing shitty jobs. In most discernable ways KD's overall plan appears to be much the same as Hextall FFS.

 

[Gurglesons]

Carter was the only egregiously stupid contract IMO. Kap and Granlund went away with no consequence. So did McGinn. We'll see if KD can pull the same trick with the 10+ million dollars owed to a goaltender who should probably be playing in Wheeling and whatever the f*** Graves is supposed to be.

Again this doesn't have to be a "point for in this column... point against in this... and as we see here... Kyle Dubas wins 27 to 25," They both suck and they both did/are doing shitty jobs. In most discernable ways KD's overall plan appears to be much the same as Hextall FFS.

Only he gave away a 1st that could've been a huge asset to the rebuild.

And his Yager pick was so mid he had decided to move it within a year. Which is hindsight as I was onboard for a Yager selection.

Although, I think the more intelligent move was trading that 1st at the draft and going all in.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, that's the point. It's really easy to move on from short term deals as evidence by Hextall being able to get out of most of his bad contracts for little to no effect.

That was also the whole point behind getting out of Marino and Matheson as well as not keeping Tanev and McCann, but people fail to understand that for some reason.

It was about having max cap flexibility every year so if the Penguins fell off a cliff he could easily sell.

The issue was he was likely being told by FSG he had to make a contender. So he signed those 4 big contracts and then continued to make low risk and low value trades which helped him keep 1sts for "the future".

The plan was very easy to see, Penguins fans just don't want to see it and blame him for some reason for the Penguins getting outcoached and outclassed in multiple playoff series.

Short vs long becomes irrelevant to a point when your window is extremely short-term. Resigning the corpse of Carter to 35+ with a NMC at WAY over market value is the kind of stuff that hinders the roster and ability to make moves even though it's "short-term". Didn't Hextall give McGinn four years as well that we had to pay to move?

He moved Matheson and Marino because he believed that getting big, slow, physical dmen would be a better for the team in the playoffs...however, it turns out we'd never find out because the team would end up missing the playoffs after he traded decent, helpful players for worse players.

One thing you keep missing about the impact of the Hextall moves while you dog Dubas, is that the moves Dubas had to make were largely because of Hextall. He had to pay significantly to get rid of Petry, Rutta, Granland, and CDS. All Hextall signings.

If you want to bitch about Eller, Acciari, Graves, Jarry - that's fine. I'm 100% on board with that. I hated nearly every signing he made last year. But it's hard to support you dogging him over Karlsson when it's your boy Hextall that dug the grave.

As an aside, again as I've said in the past - man oh man - Rox Hextall. That's the man you have dedicated your credibility to. Of all people to dig a grave and die on the hill for...it's Rox Hextall. Man that baffles my mind every single time your wet noodle sword and cardboard shield comes out for him.

 

[cookthebooks]

Only he gave away a 1st that could've been a huge asset to the rebuild.

And his Yager pick was so mid he had decided to move it within a year. Which is hindsight as I was onboard for a Yager selection.

Although, I think the more intelligent move was trading that 1st at the draft and going all in.

the mid 1st round pick was so mid are you serious with that line of criticism?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Only he gave away a 1st that could've been a huge asset to the rebuild.

And his Yager pick was so mid he had decided to move it within a year. Which is hindsight as I was onboard for a Yager selection.

Although, I think the more intelligent move was trading that 1st at the draft and going all in.

Nobody around here wants to hear it and that's fine but with as confused as this partial rebuild or whatever you want to call it has been, as little in the way of REAL assets that they have accumulated with it and as horrific of a developmental coach as Mike Sullivan is who cannot build value in players ya'll wanna flip anyway... would it have been THAT bad to just keep on spending on the roster and try to shoehorn them into the playoffs a couple more times?

I can see that one clearly from both side so I'm not militant about it. But it's hard to believe it wouldn't have been more entertaining and far less hope-draining than whatever this hell is.

 

[Gurglesons]

Short vs long becomes irrelevant to a point when your window is extremely short-term. Resigning the corpse of Carter to 35+ with a NMC at WAY over market value is the kind of stuff that hinders the roster and ability to make moves even though it's "short-term". Didn't Hextall give McGinn four years as well that we had to pay to move?

He moved Matheson and Marino because he believed that getting big, slow, physical dmen would be a better for the team in the playoffs...however, it turns out we'd never find out because the team would end up missing the playoffs after he traded decent, helpful players for worse players.

One thing you keep missing about the impact of the Hextall moves while you dog Dubas, is that the moves Dubas had to make were largely because of Hextall. He had to pay significantly to get rid of Petry, Rutta, Granland, and CDS. All Hextall signings.

If you want to bitch about Eller, Acciari, Graves, Jarry - that's fine. I'm 100% on board with that. I hated nearly every signing he made last year. But it's hard to support you dogging him over Karlsson when it's your boy Hextall that dug the grave.

As an aside, again as I've said in the past - man oh man - Rox Hextall. That's the man you have dedicated your credibility to. Of all people to dig a grave and die on the hill for...it's Rox Hextall. Man that baffles my mind every single time your wet noodle sword and cardboard shield comes out for him.

No he didn't.

Also like I said Granlund has outproduced McCann. So why are you giving Hextall crap for McCann and not Dubas crap for Granlund?

Desmith has outproduced both Jarry and Ned over the last two years. Why are you not giving him props?

Dubas did not need to make any moves. He had 20 mil and assets. He could've filled out the roster and rolled with Letang, Petry, Rutta as our RHD. He could've had Granlund as a top six forward.

And once again you're confused. I'm not defending Hextall, I'm saying we have Hextall 2.0, but one who has even less understanding about where we are as a franchise.

 

[IcedCapp]

Jarry claimed!


that tip in goals are unethical. Just wanted to remind everyone of this tidbit.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

we need more quality over quantity.

We don't know what the quality will be in future rounds. That's my entire point.
Quantity leads to quality all the time in the NHL.

It’s not a 50/50 chance when you have direct data from previous years that clearly showed Jarry wasn’t it.

Show me that direct data then. At the time he was signed, he was statistically the best available UFA starter who would be willing to play for Pittsburgh.

 

[SEALBound]

No he didn't.

Also like I said Granlund has outproduced McCann. So why are you giving Hextall crap for McCann and not Dubas crap for Granlund?

Desmith has outproduced both Jarry and Ned over the last two years. Why are you not giving him props?

Dubas did not need to make any moves. He had 20 mil and assets. He could've filled out the roster and rolled with Letang, Petry, Rutta as our RHD. He could've had Granlund as a top six forward.

And once again you're confused. I'm not defending Hextall, I'm saying we have Hextall 2.0, but one who has even less understanding about where we are as a franchise.

Easy, because McCann was 24yo and not an absolute disaster here. While people were iffy on McCann, he still potted 32pts in 43game (60pt pace). Granlund, at 31yo, was cruising along with 5pts in 21 games (a totally awesome 19pt pace).

McCann could still have been usefull as a 2LW, 3C, or especially now, 2C. Granlund was a disaster here from first game. It's great that both found their game elsewhere but that's irrelevant given how well McCann was doing for us. Maybe doesn't reach 40+ goals but still a young 60pt player that can be a 2C would be mighty nice to have right now. But ya know, that 7th and Hallander we got will be great.

Next, the roster that Hextall put together missed the playoffs. It was the goal to make them. It was extremely clear that our transition game from our defense took a big step back and we needed to help fortify the power play. Petry, Rutta, and Granlund were not helping that. This isn't hard. Don't try to rewrite history to into a carefully constructed denial of reality that paints Hextall as an overlooked genius who just didn't get enough time. Pretty sure when you tell your new owner "I can't tell you my plan nor can I even write it down...it's all in my head" people are going to lose confidence. But well done f***ing Beethoven, er I mean, Hextall.

Certainly that level of genius and ability is the reason why he got picked up so fast. ....or, wait...

 

[Gurglesons]

the mid 1st round pick was so mid are you serious with that line of criticism?

My point is that if he had a 1st in a very deep draft and was focused on making moves to improve the roster. He could've utilized it better.

As I said, I throughout 22 and 23 said if we got a top ten pick we should target Yager or Benson. I'm speaking in hindsight and it's hard to fault Dubas for taking who he did, but it is questionable that he took a 1st round pick and then immediately moved it within 9-10 months later. It makes me once again ask if he has invested any time in player evaluation.

 

[SomeDude]

Show me that direct data then. At the time he was signed, he was statistically the best available UFA starter who would be willing to play for Pittsburgh.

This is why you cannot run a hockey team on statistical data alone. Watch his playoff games (in the rare event he was healthy for them) and tell me you want that goalie signed long term.

 

[Kasperi kapanen]

Jarry claimed!


that tip in goals are unethical. Just wanted to remind everyone of this tidbit.

you piece of shit.

 

[Gurglesons]

Easy, because McCann was 24yo and not an absolute disaster here. While people were iffy on McCann, he still potted 32pts in 43game (60pt pace). Granlund, at 31yo, was cruising along with 5pts in 21 games (a totally awesome 19pt pace).

McCann could still have been usefull as a 2LW, 3C, or especially now, 2C. Granlund was a disaster here from first game. It's great that both found their game elsewhere but that's irrelevant given how well McCann was doing for us. Maybe doesn't reach 40+ goals but still a young 60pt player that can be a 2C would be mighty nice to have right now. But ya know, that 7th and Hallander we got will be great.

Next, the roster that Hextall put together missed the playoffs. It was the goal to make them. It was extremely clear that our transition game from our defense took a big step back and we needed to help fortify the power play. Petry, Rutta, and Granlund were not helping that. This isn't hard. Don't try to rewrite history to into a carefully constructed denial of reality that paints Hextall as an overlooked genius who just didn't get enough time. Pretty sure when you tell your new owner "I can't tell you my plan nor can I even write it down...it's all in my head" people are going to lose confidence. But well done f***ing Beethoven, er I mean, Hextall.

Certainly that level of genius and ability is the reason why he got picked up so fast. ....or, wait...

He got scratched in the Montreal series and was a total no show in the Islanders series. I'm a McCann fan, but there is a reason he got moved and it was because he doesn't show up in the playoffs which is why they replaced his spot with Rodrigues who then went onto scoring in the playoffs multiple times and then win a cup.

You're right that Granlund was a disaster.

Nobody is doing this. I am equal in my criticism of both Hextall and Dubas. I've given props to Dubas for the Glass and Tomasino acquisitions. I give props to what Hextall did right and did wrong.

McCann and Tanev will never be an issue for me nor Matheson and Marino. Hextall shuffled in and out depth players.

I will remind you that Hextall's last season here was largely more of a health issue in terms of the playoff miss then a roster construction issue. I will also remind you that, that team despite missing 15-30 games from each of Petry, Letang, Pettersson and Rutta finished above Dubas' roster in points.

Once again the issue is both Hextall and Dubas suck and people want to preface Dubas' suckage by saying "Hextall gave him a disaster of a situation". Dubas' suckage goes back to his Leafs days though. He sucked in Toronto. He's sucked here. He just sucks.