Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXV - Poolman and Poolparty?!?

[SEALBound]

A lot of things can be true at the same time with this team. Some nights, it looks like Sid stuff lead weights in his shorts. Some nights, he looks 22 again. Same for Malkin, Letang, and Karlsson.

This team has the capability to be a bottom 3 to a WC2 team. How likely they are to get to either of those ends is about 65% Sullivan, 35% the players (with a 100% on Dubas side note).

 

[Darren McCord]

No there isn't.

I genuinely do not know what team some of you are looking at.

At the start of the season this was the roster. There is enough talent to be competing for a playoff spot with how weak the east is. The team was 3 - 2 after 5 games.

Doc - Sid - Rakell
Bunting - Geno - Rust
Beau - Eller - JP
Accari - Hayes - Glass
Puustinen

Then they went 4 - 14 and collapsed. So they traded Eller. Even if they weren't great they shouldn't have gone 4 - 14. They moved Eller because Sullivan couldn't coach them to be even close to 500 for almost 20 games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Malkin is putting up a 60 pt pace.

The team should be in the playoff hunt. Not saying they should be a lock for the playoffs, but the returns this year have been awful largely due to the stale coaching and anoiting losers like Imama and Nieto as NHL regulars.

A 60 point pace isn't impressive when the top guys in the NHL are putting up 130-140 points today. He's 113th in NHL scoring and 100th in the NHL in PPG. At 5v5, he's 135th in points and 147th in points/60. If that's the main piece of your 2nd line and your 2nd line wingers are Bunting and whatever Glass/Beauvillier/Tomasino/ect you throw there, your 2nd line sucks.

I'm not saying this to shit on Malkin, he hasn't done anything wrong outside of just being old. But every single aspect of this team outside of L1 plus the Pettersson-Karlsson pair (when it was together) was shit. Want to say coaching made it worse? Sure, but this team was nowhere even close to playoff caliber on paper.

 

[Gurglesons]

A 60 point pace isn't impressive when the top guys in the NHL are putting up 130-140 points today. He's 113th in NHL scoring and 100th in the NHL in PPG. At 5v5, he's 135th in points and 147th in points/60. If that's the main piece of your 2nd line and your 2nd line wingers are Bunting and whatever Glass/Beauvillier/Tomasino/ect you throw there, your 2nd line sucks.

I'm not saying this to shit on Malkin, he hasn't done anything wrong outside of just being old. But every single aspect of this team outside of L1 plus the Pettersson-Karlsson pair (when it was together) was shit. Want to say coaching made it worse? Sure, but this team was nowhere even close to playoff caliber on paper.

So he's an average top six forward?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So he's an average top six forward?

He's a single average top-6 forward on a 2nd line without another average top-6 forward. Hence why L2 has also sucked this year.

It's wild that people bitch and moan about how bad of a job Dubas has done building this team, but when it's a discussion about Sullivan, suddenly Dubas did a great job at giving the Penguins a playoff caliber team that Sullivan is just failing.

 

[Gurglesons]

He's a single average top-6 forward on a 2nd line without another average top-6 forward. Hence why L2 has also sucked this year.

It's wild that people bitch and moan about how bad of a job Dubas has done building this team, but when it's a discussion about Sullivan, suddenly Dubas did a great job at giving the Penguins a playoff caliber team that Sullivan is just failing.

Not a single person has said the team is a playoff caliber team.

We've said that the roster is good enough to be in the playoff hunt. Not close to a bottom five team in the league.

 

[Empoleon8771]

At the start of the season this was the roster. There is enough talent to be competing for a playoff spot with how weak the east is. The team was 3 - 2 after 5 games.

Doc - Sid - Rakell
Bunting - Geno - Rust
Beau - Eller - JP
Accari - Hayes - Glass
Puustinen

Then they went 4 - 14 and collapsed. So they traded Eller. Even if they weren't great they shouldn't have gone 4 - 14. They moved Eller because Sullivan couldn't coach them to be even close to 500 for almost 20 games.

Again, I do not know how you can look at that forward roster and think that's anything even close to playoff caliber.

The roster sucks people. Want to say it's underperforming even where it should be? Sure, but the team is liquid crap. You can simultaneously say that Sullivan has done a bad job with the shit roster while also acknowledging the roster is shit. It's not either/or.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

The Blue Jackets are in the playoff hunt.

Their roster is better. Jackets have a lot of young talent on the team, they're a team on the rise.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Blue Jackets are in the playoff hunt.

The Jackets roster is better than the Penguins roster.

Their top-4 D (Werenski, Provorov, Severson and Fabbro) is significantly better than the Penguins top-4 D. They have 8 forwards on pace for 40 or more points (Marchensko, Monahan, Voronkov, Johnson, Fantilli, Sillinger, JVR and Chinakhov) compared to 4 for the Penguins. The only thing they don't have on the Penguins is that their goaltending is just as bad.

Literally the only advantage the Penguins have on the Jackets is Crosby over Monahan at 1C. And even with that, Voronkov-Monahan-Marchenko has significantly outperformed Rakell-Crosby-Rust this year.

 

[cookthebooks]

Not a single person has said the team is a playoff caliber team.

We've said that the roster is good enough to be in the playoff hunt. Not close to a bottom five team in the league.

this is a lil bit like moving the goalposts tempered with the narcissism of small differences

 

[Gurglesons]

Their roster is better. Jackets have a lot of young talent on the team, they're a team on the rise.

They also have a coach that utilizes young talent.

this is a lil bit like moving the goalposts tempered with the narcissism of small differences

Not really. It's perfectly logical what the argument that is being made is.

The Jackets roster is better than the Penguins roster.

Their top-4 D (Werenski, Provorov, Severson and Fabbro) is significantly better than the Penguins top-4 D. They have 8 forwards on pace for 40 or more points (Marchensko, Monahan, Voronkov, Johnson, Fantilli, Sillinger, JVR and Chinakhov) compared to 4 for the Penguins. The only thing they don't have on the Penguins is that their goaltending is just as bad.

You don't think that has something to do with the coach?

 

[Darren McCord]

Again, I do not know how you can look at that forward roster and think that's anything even close to playoff caliber.

The roster sucks people. Want to say it's underperforming even where it should be? Sure, but the team is liquid crap. You can simultaneously say that Sullivan has done a bad job with the shit roster while also acknowledging the roster is shit. It's not either/or.

I'm not saying that. I am saying that roster is capable of being close with how bad the east is. This team had struggle scoring yet Sullivan trots out Neito and Accari over JP. Nieto has 3 pts and does nothing but has played 28 games.

Also Sullivan chose to load up line one and make the others ineffective. DOC started the season well and drop like a rock. Why do players always stagnate or get worse under Sullivan?

 

[Malkinstheman]

So the Panthers want to make a big add and need a RHD. EK might be a good fit but the cap seems almost impossible to make work unless the Pens retain 50% which isn't gonna happen. Long-term the cap works since the Panthers core guys are all signed but it will be tough to do mid season

 

[Victor Z]

It's wild that people bitch and moan about how bad of a job Dubas has done building this team, but when it's a discussion about Sullivan, suddenly Dubas did a great job at giving the Penguins a playoff caliber team that Sullivan is just failing.

As to the eternal chicken-egg debate regarding who has f**ked up this team more, Dubas or Sullivan, I'm gonna use the "multiple things can be true" platitude and say:

1. Dubas hasn't exactly given Sully the best players, and aside from his other failings did not address the team's #1 need this past offseason: a REAL #1 left defenseman. It's not Matt Grzlecyk, Pickering isn't close to being that yet (and probably never will be). Right now it's some AHL scrub known by his initials.

But also....

2. Does anyone really believe that Sully has zero, nada, nil, nothing as far as input on the moves his GM makes? Probably even to the point of roster callups (like Imama, who barely qualifies as AHL-caliber). The hell he doesn't.

See? Multiple things can be true -- they are both to blame -- and since Sully controls both the coaching and SOME part of the GM-ing then he should get the majority of the blame. Along those lines, perhaps Dubas' biggest fault is being too much of a twerp to stand up to the Sully-FSG axis. But he's got a cushy and well-paying gig, so why rock the boat?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not saying that. I am saying that roster is capable of being close with how bad the east is. This team had struggle scoring yet Sullivan trots out Neito and Accari over JP. Nieto has 3 pts and does nothing but has played 28 games.

Also Sullivan chose to load up line one and make the others ineffective. DOC started the season well and drop like a rock. Why do players always stagnate or get worse under Sullivan?

Playing Puljujarvi or Nieto is going to do nothing to get the Penguins closer to the playoffs. That is just rearranging the chairs on the titanic.

This roster isn't a "fringe playoff team with a bad coach" situation. It's a bad roster with a bad coach. Playing Puljujarvi over Nieto on L4 isn't erasing L2 and L3 sucking. It's not erasing this team not having a competent defense. It's not changing the abysmal goaltending they've gotten up until recently.

Beyond L1, Malkin and Bunting, their entire forward group is just full of a bunch of cast offs, reclamation projects and washed up players. On defense, it's Karlsson, the corpse of Letang and a bunch of cast offs, reclamation projects and washed up players. The team is just flat out bad.

 

[pistolpete11]

They wouldn't have this shit of a roster if they were getting better results the last 7 years.

They probably would have taken a run at keeping Guentzel.
Smith and Eller probably wouldn't have begged to get out of here.
They probably wouldn't have traded Petts and DOC.
They probably wouldn't have taken on cap dumps like Hayes and Glass.
They probably wouldn't have signed guys with the best case scenario of flipping them for a 4th at the deadline like Gryz and Beau.

Moves were made to give Sullivan the team he said he needed to be successful, then more moves were made because those moves didn't work, and it has continued to snowball until Dubas pulled the railroad switch and they started heading towards Rebuild City.

So, no, I don't give Sullivan a pass for missing the playoffs this year because he's the biggest reason they have this roster.

 

[Darren McCord]

Playing Puljujarvi or Nieto is going to do nothing to get the Penguins closer to the playoffs. That is just rearranging the chairs on the titanic.

This roster isn't a "fringe playoff team with a bad coach" situation. It's a bad roster with a bad coach. Playing Puljujarvi over Nieto on L4 isn't erasing L2 and L3 sucking. It's not erasing this team not having a competent defense. It's not changing the abysmal goaltending they've gotten up until recently.

Maybe if they coach does something the goaltending isn't as abysmal. Maybe if he tries to coach they arent 31rst in the league in goals against.

Even an absolute awful isles team is better in the standings than the penguins.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

With the cap going up so much, there zero need to use any assets to get out of bad deals like TJ or Graves. Next off-season they'll be ~4% of the cap and much easier to move, especially w/retention.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I love inventing other people's positions and then arguing against them.

Coincidentally, why are you all so dumb and I'm so smart? Just try being smart, and not dumb!

 

[Empoleon8771]

They wouldn't have this shit of a roster if they were getting better results the last 7 years.

They probably would have taken a run at keeping Guentzel.
Smith and Eller probably wouldn't have begged to get out of here.
They probably wouldn't have traded Petts and DOC.
They probably wouldn't have taken on cap dumps like Hayes and Glass.
They probably wouldn't have signed guys with the best case scenario of flipping them for a 4th at the deadline like Gryz and Beau.

Moves were made to give Sullivan the team he said he needed to be successful, then more moves were made because those moves didn't work, and it has continued to snowball until Dubas pulled the railroad switch and they started heading towards Rebuild City.

So, no, I don't give Sullivan a pass for missing the playoffs this year because he's the biggest reason they have this roster.

This team would be heading towards Rebuild City even had they won multiple cups from 2018-2023, unless they would have moved on from Malkin and Letang and replaced them with a prime aged Malkin and Letang.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This team would be heading towards Rebuild City even had they won multiple cups from 2018-2023, unless they would have moved on from Malkin and Letang and replaced them with a prime aged Malkin and Letang.

Take me down to Rebuild City
Where the Coach is Mike and the posts are shittay.

 

[Gurglesons]

This team would be heading towards Rebuild City even had they won multiple cups from 2018-2023, unless they would have moved on from Malkin and Letang and replaced them with a prime aged Malkin and Letang.

I really don't get this argument. Washington just replaced Backstrom and Oshie through trades and signings.

Our GM and coach suck at player evaluation and development.

Playing Puljujarvi or Nieto is going to do nothing to get the Penguins closer to the playoffs. That is just rearranging the chairs on the titanic.

This roster isn't a "fringe playoff team with a bad coach" situation. It's a bad roster with a bad coach. Playing Puljujarvi over Nieto on L4 isn't erasing L2 and L3 sucking. It's not erasing this team not having a competent defense. It's not changing the abysmal goaltending they've gotten up until recently.

Beyond L1, Malkin and Bunting, their entire forward group is just full of a bunch of cast offs, reclamation projects and washed up players. On defense, it's Karlsson, the corpse of Letang and a bunch of cast offs, reclamation projects and washed up players. The team is just flat out bad.

Largely because of Mike Sullivan.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Playing Puljujarvi or Nieto is going to do nothing to get the Penguins closer to the playoffs.

Oh you have an alternate time machine? What are the lotto numbers?

Again, we're talking about marginal gains with playing the right people in the right positions. But we won't ever get to find out will we?

So proclaiming something as fact due to your OPINION doesn't make it so. Just like my own opinion.

The only thing we have to go on is what is actually occuring. And what IS occurring isn't working.
I'm just tired of this "we need better players" BS excuse. Sullivan had GREAT players and he sunk them. Now he has BAD players and he's sinking them too. Surely that's just a coincidence....

But let's keep blaming the players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I really don't get this argument. Washington just replaced Backstrom and Oshie through trades and signings.

Our GM and coach suck at player evaluation and development.

Washington also didn't hemorrhage draft picks and prospects like JR did in the 2018-2021 window, which is a major part why they're good now.

With how the Penguins were operated from 2018-2023, there was simply no chance that this team could be a playoff team once the core slowed down.

Oh you have an alternate time machine? What are the lotto numbers?

Again, we're talking about marginal gains with playing the right people in the right positions. But we won't ever get to find out will we?

So proclaiming something as fact due to your OPINION doesn't make it so. Just like my own opinion.

The only thing we have to go on is what is actually occuring. And what IS occurring isn't working.
I'm just tired of this "we need better players" BS excuse. Sullivan had GREAT players and he sunk them. Now he has BAD players and he's sinking them too. Surely that's just a coincidence....

But let's keep blaming the players.

The point I'm arguing is that this team is both bad and Sullivan is bad. My argument here is the bolded, this is a bad team that Sullivan is making perform even worse than they are.

I just think this team as constructed is nowhere even close to sniffing the playoffs. The rest of the team beyond L1, Malkin (who has also taken a big step back) and Karlsson is simply too bad.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think the lack of young players playing is just as much on Dubas as it is on Sullivan. Boko Imama isn't up because Sullivan is pounding on the table for him to come up. They absolutely could call up Ponomarev and have him play, but Dubas is the one deciding to keep him down. I understand it's about wanting to let them play for a winning AHL team rather than a losing NHL team, but Ponomarev becomes waiver eligible next year and they need to give him a shot in the NHL this year.

I'm mostly whatever on Koivunen and McGroarty staying in the AHL for the rest of this year, but Ponomarev absolutely should be up. Especially with how hot he has been recently.

What makes you think Sully doesn’t have a strong say in who gets called up?