24/25 McDavid vs. 14/15 Crosby

[daver]

Crosby takes a lot of criticism for his 14/15 season. Even though he lead the league in PPG, it was barely above the other leaders and he some missed games cost which him the Art Ross. It was also the peak of DPE 2.0 where only three players reached a 100 points over a four seasons ('13/14 to '16/17) so Crosby's 84 points looks unimpressive also relative to other years. He still lead the Pens in points and tied with Malkin for goals. His PPG was 12% better than 10th place and 25% better than 20th place.

McDavid is currently T4th in scoring and 5th in PPG. He is 2nd on the Oilers in scoring and in goals. His PPG is 19% better than 10th place and 27% better than 20th place.

Can you argue that McDavid's 24/25 season, so far, is on par with Crosby's 14/15 season? He hasn't separated himself from the pack any better than Crosby did.

McDavid's PPG of 1.40 is T14th best since the 21/22 season, Crosby's PPG of 1.09 was T10th best over four seasons ('13/14 to '16/17).

Click to read more...

 

[Randyne]

he some missed games cost which him the Art Ross

Fortunately for the Pens, those missed games by Sid gifted them PO spot.
2014/15: PIT P% w/o Sid .700; with Sid .591
If Sid played all games the Pens would lose their spot to Boston that year.

The Pens play better w/o Sid, they should send him golfing again if they want to play in the playoffs.

 

[D Wakaluk]

Crosby takes a lot of criticism for his 14/15 season.

"... and I took that personally".

---

Anyway, yeah, sure.

Also, what, why, is there another grand scheme I'm missing here?

 

[benr]

"... and I took that personally".

---

Anyway, yeah, sure.

Also, what, why, is there another grand scheme I'm missing here?

The grand scheme is slowing down the inevitable passing of Crosby by McDavid in the public’s perception

 

[WalterLundy]

2024-25: ESG: 2.33, PPG: 0.59, SHG: 0.07
2014-15: ESG: 2.02, PPG: 0.57, SHG: 0.07


Actual 2014-15 Crosby:
77 GP: 28 G, 56 A, 84 P (1.09)

Adjusted to 2024-25:
77 GP: 31 G, 62 A, 93 P (1.21)

McDavid has not been great by his standards this season but it is still significantly better than what Crosby did in 2014-15. That year was a combination of a low scoring environment and top players failing in an epic fashion to produce. It was so abysmal for production that Jamie Benn won the Art Ross. It was an indictment on the league with how horrid it was. Crosby’s adjusted points per game would be around what Jack Eichel is at this season and he is 10th. Crosby’s season even in this year’s scoring environment is a below 100 point/82 game pace. Several players will blast by that number this year.

I will say that McDavid is having a disappointing season overall by his standards and that I expected far more this year but 2014-15 was probably the worst season that I ever watched. That was mind numbing and embarrassing stuff. His current season would still win the 2014-15 Art Ross comfortably even with 76 games max to play and this is his worst season since 2017 or 2018. Nobody is having an otherworldly year this season when scoring environment is considered for point production but it still far exceeds the disaster of 2015.

 

[Toby91ca]

Fortunately for the Pens, those missed games by Sid gifted them PO spot.
2014/15: PIT P% w/o Sid .700; with Sid .591
If Sid played all games the Pens would lose their spot to Boston that year.

The Pens play better w/o Sid, they should send him golfing again if they want to play in the playoffs.

So what you are saying is…if Crosby played all the games, they would be worse and fall to their P% with him in the lineup at .591 and somehow that would cause them to miss the playoffs to Boston and their .585 P%….is this what you are trying to say?

 

[Randyne]

So what you are saying is…if Crosby played all the games, they would be worse and fall to their P% with him in the lineup at .591 and somehow that would cause them to miss the playoffs to Boston and their .585 P%….is this what you are trying to say?

2 points difference.

 

[filinski77]

The grand scheme is slowing down the inevitable passing of Crosby by McDavid in the public’s perception

By comparing McDavids worst season of his career (or 2nd worst if you say his rookie season) to Crosby's 5th or 6th BEST season?

 

[Toby91ca]

2 points difference.

You can't be serious can you? Everyone knows the point difference, you just need to look up the standings. But you do realize, using your numbers, the difference between a .700 P% and a .591 P% over the 5 games he missed is 1 pt right? Or even easier, I'll remove as much math as possible....how can a .585 P% team get into the playoffs over a .591 P% team? Apologies for incorporating some math, but all you need to do is consider which one of those numbers is larger.

 

[K Fleur]

The Pens definitely play better without Sidney Crosby.

That’s why they won all those cups in his concussion/broken neck years. The years they won the whole time I was thinking “man just think about how easy this would have been if Crosby wasn’t playing”. Then I farted into my hand, smelled it and was overcome by the high.

 

[Toby91ca]

By comparing McDavids worst season of his career (or 2nd worst if you say his rookie season) to Crosby's 5th or 6th BEST season?

McDavid has already passed him, I think most people already agree with that. The only thing holding him back from people placing him higher on an all-time list is simply longevity. I suppose if McDavid falls apart the last 10 years of his career you won't place him that high, but there is literally no signs of that happening. Just because he isn't dominating the scoring list doesn't mean he's falling apart. NO ONE, except Gretzky in the 80s, dominates the scoring list year after year after year. The all-time greats are all-time greats because they hang around the top each year pretty consistently.

You'll always have some that will point to Cups if McDavid never wins one, which I do place some value on, but that would only be a tie-breaker. I don't think we'll need a tie-breaker here. Maybe if Crosby didn't go through those injuries, but he did, so forget about the what-ifs.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

If you're just talking about 2024-2025 McDavid then he isn't even the best forward on his team, Draisaitl looks more dangerous than him almost every time I've seen the Oilers this season and also far harder to play against. McDavid will make a few nice rush plays though each game at least.

 

[Regal]

By comparing McDavids worst season of his career (or 2nd worst if you say his rookie season) to Crosby's 5th or 6th BEST season?

It’s at best his 9th or 10th best season, not even counting the years like ‘08 and ‘11

 

[KrisLetAngry]

By comparing McDavids worst season of his career (or 2nd worst if you say his rookie season) to Crosby's 5th or 6th BEST season?

It’s at best his 9th or 10th best season, not even counting the years like ‘08 and ‘11

I was going to say this is more around #10

 

[Crabapple]

Probably Crosby, McDavid has had a rough season, especially this latest stretch. We're just hoping that he's saving it for the playoffs.

 

[Randyne]

You can't be serious can you? Everyone knows the point difference, you just need to look up the standings. But you do realize, using your numbers, the difference between a .700 P% and a .591 P% over the 5 games he missed is 1 pt right? Or even easier, I'll remove as much math as possible....how can a .585 P% team get into the playoffs over a .591 P% team? Apologies for incorporating some math, but all you need to do is consider which one of those numbers is larger.

2 points.
Instead of 7 points they could earn only 4 with him and miss the PO.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

When this is your counter

arguing the anti-Crosby side of relevant threads is all you got. Pity.

 

[22Brad Park]

I think McDavid speed will always separate him from most players,but when comparing him to Crosby it has to come back to the Cups.Sid has 3 Cups & that matters.People can break down pts per game u name it but unless McDavid gets a Cup it's moot comparing them.

When this is your counter
View attachment 983252
arguing the anti-Crosby side of relevant threads is all you got. Pity.

leafs are what 58 years...

 

[Toby91ca]

2 points.
Instead of 7 points they could earn only 4 with him and miss the PO.

At the risk of this resulting in me banging my head against the wall, I'll ask the question. Where are you getting 7 and 4 and therefore missing the playoffs because the difference of 3 is greater than 2?

 

[filinski77]

It’s at best his 9th or 10th best season, not even counting the years like ‘08 and ‘11

I was going to say this is more around #10

I disagree (also does anyone else know why tf pasting from excel doesn't work anymore??)

I would put Crosby's 4 top seasons pretty comfortably as the 2 seasons he finished 1st in points, plus 2 seasons where he was top-2 in points/gp AND also a world class goal scorer.

Then the 5-7 range (which includes 2015 where he was 1st in points/gp and 3rd in points). You can make an argument for all 3 of these seasons due to the vast differences in raw, /gp, and goalscoring. I would personally have it closer to his 6th best season - but very close to the 7th. Could argue its his 5th if you value the weaker goalscoring but going from 4th to 1st in point/gp.

I did not include his 2012 season where he only played 1/4 of the season. But even if you do include it, he was 1st in points/gp and 44th in goals/gp. I'll take 2015 over that any day - especially considering /gp in 75 games or whatever vs 22 games.

I don't really see many arguments to put #8/9/10 above 2015.

Ranking Season Points Goals Points/gp Goals/gp
1-4 2014 1st 7th 1st 12th
1-4 2007 1st 16th 1st 22nd
1-4 2017 2nd 1st 2nd 1st
1-4 2011 30th 14th 1st 1st 1/2 season
5-7 2010 2nd 1st 4th 2nd
5-7 2015 3rd 20th 1st 27th
5-7 2013 3rd 43rd 1st 16th
8 2008 28th 64th 2nd 14th 2/3 season
9 2016 3rd 7th 4th 10th
10 2009 3rd 20th 3rd 21st
11 2006 6th 12th 6th 19th
12 2019 5th 21st 5th 23rd
13 2021 10th 13th 11th 19th
14 2018 10th 33rd 13th 51st
15 2024 12th 11th 16th 14th
16 2023 16th 41st 19th 48th
17 2022 24th 40th 17th 41st
18 2020 80th 123rd 13th 36th
19 2025 21st 75th 31st 97th

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

jfc, if you ever needed a reminder why the main boards are a bad idea...

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I disagree (also does anyone else know why tf pasting from excel doesn't work anymore??)

I would put Crosby's 4 top seasons pretty comfortably as the 2 seasons he finished 1st in points, plus 2 seasons where he was top-2 in points/gp AND also a world class goal scorer.

Then the 5-7 range (which includes 2015 where he was 1st in points/gp and 3rd in points). You can make an argument for all 3 of these seasons due to the vast differences in raw, /gp, and goalscoring. I would personally have it closer to his 6th best season - but very close to the 7th. Could argue its his 5th if you value the weaker goalscoring but going from 4th to 1st in point/gp.

I did not include his 2012 season where he only played 1/4 of the season. But even if you do include it, he was 1st in points/gp and 44th in goals/gp. I'll take 2015 over that any day - especially considering /gp in 75 games or whatever vs 22 games.

I don't really see many arguments to put #8/9/10 above 2015.

Ranking Season Points Goals Points/gp Goals/gp
1-4 2014 1st 7th 1st 12th
1-4 2007 1st 16th 1st 22nd
1-4 2017 2nd 1st 2nd 1st
1-4 2011 30th 14th 1st 1st 1/2 season
5-7 2010 2nd 1st 4th 2nd
5-7 2015 3rd 20th 1st 27th
5-7 2013 3rd 43rd 1st 16th
8 2008 28th 64th 2nd 14th 2/3 season
9 2016 3rd 7th 4th 10th
10 2009 3rd 20th 3rd 21st
11 2006 6th 12th 6th 19th
12 2019 5th 21st 5th 23rd
13 2021 10th 13th 11th 19th
14 2018 10th 33rd 13th 51st
15 2024 12th 11th 16th 14th
16 2023 16th 41st 19th 48th
17 2022 24th 40th 17th 41st
18 2020 80th 123rd 13th 36th
19 2025 21st 75th 31st 97th

We can agree to disagree

 

[Regal]

I disagree (also does anyone else know why tf pasting from excel doesn't work anymore??)

I would put Crosby's 4 top seasons pretty comfortably as the 2 seasons he finished 1st in points, plus 2 seasons where he was top-2 in points/gp AND also a world class goal scorer.

Then the 5-7 range (which includes 2015 where he was 1st in points/gp and 3rd in points). You can make an argument for all 3 of these seasons due to the vast differences in raw, /gp, and goalscoring. I would personally have it closer to his 6th best season - but very close to the 7th. Could argue its his 5th if you value the weaker goalscoring but going from 4th to 1st in point/gp.

I did not include his 2012 season where he only played 1/4 of the season. But even if you do include it, he was 1st in points/gp and 44th in goals/gp. I'll take 2015 over that any day - especially considering /gp in 75 games or whatever vs 22 games.

I don't really see many arguments to put #8/9/10 above 2015.

Ranking Season Points Goals Points/gp Goals/gp
1-4 2014 1st 7th 1st 12th
1-4 2007 1st 16th 1st 22nd
1-4 2017 2nd 1st 2nd 1st
1-4 2011 30th 14th 1st 1st 1/2 season
5-7 2010 2nd 1st 4th 2nd
5-7 2015 3rd 20th 1st 27th
5-7 2013 3rd 43rd 1st 16th
8 2008 28th 64th 2nd 14th 2/3 season
9 2016 3rd 7th 4th 10th
10 2009 3rd 20th 3rd 21st
11 2006 6th 12th 6th 19th
12 2019 5th 21st 5th 23rd
13 2021 10th 13th 11th 19th
14 2018 10th 33rd 13th 51st
15 2024 12th 11th 16th 14th
16 2023 16th 41st 19th 48th
17 2022 24th 40th 17th 41st
18 2020 80th 123rd 13th 36th
19 2025 21st 75th 31st 97th

You have a season he was the Lindsay winner and barely lost the Hart as behind that year. ‘10 and ‘13 are miles better than that season. 2010 is arguably the best year of his career.

This feels based on scoring placements rather than actual play. But if we accept that ‘15 was a bad year for forwards if the argument is that McDavid is still better this year, despite his placement, it becomes clear we need to look at the bigger picture. ‘07, ‘09, ‘10, ‘13, ‘14, ‘17 are all clearly better based on scoring relative to more than just the top couple scorers.

18-19 was similar production relative to the league but a better all around game (and he was runner up for the Hart). 15-16 was better production in the same scoring environment (and he also finished runner up for the Hart). That’s 8 seasons I’d say are clearly better, 7 of which he was a Hart finalist (among those, only in ‘09 did he finish lower in voting than in ‘15 and that was in part because Malkin finished 2nd).

I’d argue 20-21 was also better, but it’s close.

 

[nowhereman]

So what you are saying is…if Crosby played all the games, they would be worse and fall to their P% with him in the lineup at .591 and somehow that would cause them to miss the playoffs to Boston and their .585 P%….is this what you are trying to say?

It's best not to engage Randyne on anything that involves Sidney Crosby or logic.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

You can't be serious can you? Everyone knows the point difference, you just need to look up the standings. But you do realize, using your numbers, the difference between a .700 P% and a .591 P% over the 5 games he missed is 1 pt right? Or even easier, I'll remove as much math as possible....how can a .585 P% team get into the playoffs over a .591 P% team? Apologies for incorporating some math, but all you need to do is consider which one of those numbers is larger.

The "Pittsburgh does better when Crosby is out of the lineup" argument has been debunked a number of times. See this post as an example.

EDIT - you don't need to take my word for it. pnep had a thread about this. If you look at his underlying data (the attachment is post #2), he shows that the Pens did better when Crosby played. I know - a shocking conclusion: