Rumor: 23-24 Trade Rumors and Free Agency Part Trois: The Road to the Deadline

[Bender]

That's also not a Cup winning lineup either (and odds are high injuries happen).

I think there are some differences of expectations. My opinion is that it is pretty much Cup or bust right now. It is unrealistic to win a Cup every year, but putting the team in the best possible position should be the expectation. If a GM fails to do that, IMO it should be looked at as a failure. Even if the team fails after the moves, if the GM is doing what he can to give the best shot, that is all you can reasonably ask.

Now if people are happy with a first round win, maybe a 2nd round where the team gets boat raced in the conference finals. Henrique might be good enough for that. Unlikely in the 2nd round, but a first round win would be the expectation really. If this is okay with people, then a simple trimming around the edges and conservative deadline is probably enough.

I think that is the crux... do you expect CMac to put together the best possible roster to win a Cup, or are you okay with just a minor amount of playoff success and move on to another season?

I think 6-7 years ago - people were ok with a minor amount of playoff success as we build towards something. Now and for the next 2-3 years -> it's GO time.

If CMac doesn't recognize this, he'll be another marc bergevin-type of GM who's not trying to win Cups but trying to make sure he hangs on to his job for as long as possible.

 

[The Moops]

Now eklund has us attached to Laughton..
I'd do a Byram and a small add for Laughton and York, allows Ritchie to develop 2.5 seasons, although Frost and York would be better.

We already have a 3C

 

[Pokecheque]

I think that is the crux... do you expect CMac to put together the best possible roster to win a Cup, or are you okay with just a minor amount of playoff success and move on to another season?

Nope.. If they don't GO FOR IT this season then he should be fired.

I was okay with the team being merely "competitive" in the post-lockout years when Q was the coach. I knew that team wasn't a legit contender but I still wanted fun hockey, and they at least delivered on that. I'm not there yet with this core. They waste an MVP-caliber season from MacKinnon they should be ashamed of themselves.

Now eklund has us attached to Laughton..
I'd do a Byram and a small add for Laughton and York, allows Ritchie to develop 2.5 seasons, although Frost and York would be better.

If THAT was the return for Byram I'd rather they just keep Byram. Neither of those centers does anything to move the needle.

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

 

[BobRossColton]

I see a few Philly rosters on CF GM have Frost at 2C, If he can play between farabee and Atkinson, he can definitely play between lehky (drouin) and Nuke (rants)

 

[henchman21]

Bring my boy home

 

[Bender]

Bring my boy home

You're Zach Sanford's father !!?!?!

 

[The Abusement Park]

Disagree on a lot of this.

Both Nuke and Landy were playing hurt. Quite hurt in fact. Bura is not an upgrade on Drouin. Bura was a lot more streaky than the last 2-month Drouin. Since Dec 23rd Drouin has been quite consistent with 23 pts in 28 games (.82 PPG vs the 65-pts Bura at .79 PPG)
I will give you Lehky is probably like the '22 playoffs Lehky.
The 2C is the issue obviously but let's see how they address that spot. This is not a finish product yet.

I’m sorry but there’s no way a Landy who hasn’t played hockey in 2 years after a very major surgery comes back at the level he was at prior to that surgery. Dude was pacing for 90pts his last season. Even without the injury, Landys 31 and would be dealing with some natural regression as is. Nuke was having a near Smythe level cup run, which he’s obviously still capable of.

As for Drouin and Bura it’s not really close right now. The Bura hate here is wild. Dude was flawed but was a damn good player for us. Buras worst season with the Avs would be Drouins career high and Bura was one of the best zone entry players in the entire NHL, Drouin doesn’t offer much outside of production and he just edges him out over a 28 game sample size as opposed to Buras ~200
games here.

This current team can be good and win a cup with the right additions, but it’s not going to rival one of the best cup winners in the cap era. And that’s okay that’s a completely unrealistic bar to try and reach again.

 

[Pokecheque]

Bring my boy home

I'm on board.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Now eklund has us attached to Laughton..
I'd do a Byram and a small add for Laughton and York, allows Ritchie to develop 2.5 seasons, although Frost and York would be better.

What the f***.

 

[PAZ]

Think the best case scenario we can hope with Landy is a return similar to Couts.

 

[Pokecheque]

I see a few Philly rosters on CF GM have Frost at 2C, If he can play between farabee and Atkinson, he can definitely play between lehky (drouin) and Nuke (rants)

"He can play" is doing a whole lotta work here. You're basically settling for Tyson Jost 2.0. I suppose he could "play" just like Jost could "play" but do you really want to settle for that?

 

[AegonLeConqueror]

I’m sorry but there’s no way a Landy who hasn’t played hockey in 2 years after a very major surgery comes back at the level he was at prior to that surgery. Dude was pacing for 90pts his last season. Even without the injury, Landys 31 and would be dealing with some natural regression as is. Nuke was having a near Smythe level cup run, which he’s obviously still capable of.

As for Drouin and Bura it’s not really close right now. The Bura hate here is wild. Dude was flawed but was a damn good player for us. Buras worst season with the Avs would be Drouins career high and Bura was one of the best zone entry players in the entire NHL, Drouin doesn’t offer much outside of production and he just edges him out over a 28 game sample size as opposed to Buras ~200
games here.

This current team can be good and win a cup with the right additions, but it’s not going to rival one of the best cup winners in the cap era. And that’s okay that’s a completely unrealistic bar to try and reach again.

Agreed. Burakovsky during the cup run was a lot better than Drouin. I really enjoy seeing Drouin's improvement over the course of the season, but Bura in 2022 >> Drouin right now.

 

[PAZ]

Bura did exactly what we needed him to do - provide secondary scoring and creating opportunities out of nothing, but the rest of his game was worse than Drouin's which is why Bura only played 15-16 minutes a game.

I'd still take Bura for the cup run, but if I needed a top 6 winger i'd easily take Drouin.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

"He can play" is doing a whole lotta work here. You're basically settling for Tyson Jost 2.0. I suppose he could "play" just like Jost could "play" but do you really want to settle for that?

This isn't even remotely accurate


Even if you don't like Frost, and sure there's a few mild similarities between the two.


But when has Tyson Jost ever come close to a 40 point season or score 20 goals? His best year ever was 26 points.

Frost has actually proven to be reasonably productive already. 19 goals and 46 points on an offensively starved Flyers roster last year and he's following it up again this year on pace for a 49 point season.

No, he isn't the best option. But at $2.1M next year he is arguably by far the most affordable option. You aren't going to find a guy that can give you 50 points for cheaper than that.


Frost is basically the one option that wouldn't require major roster reconstruction to fit here next year. Yes, I'd rather get Mittelstadt, Zegras, Nelson, etc. But the cost to get those guys is going to be quite a bit higher and you're gonna have to move a lot more salary to make it work.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Bura did exactly what we needed him to do - provide secondary scoring and creating opportunities out of nothing, but the rest of his game was worse than Drouin's which is why Bura only played 15-16 minutes a game.

I'd still take Bura for the cup run, but if I needed a top 6 winger i'd easily take Drouin.

I mean Drouin had his spurt of being tenacious off the puck, but that’s mostly gone away since the all time break. Idk why anyone would take Drouin over Bura, and this is coming from someone who absolutely hated the Bura trade when it first happened.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Nobody will convince me that most names being brought up will not move the needle.

Let's take Henrique for example. He might be playing W mostly nowadays but he can still play C. Point-wise a lone we go from .36 PPG to .67 PPG from Ryjo to him. He is also certainly better than Ryjo on defense when Ryjo is dead tired after only a 15 secs shift.

The biggest improvement though that everybody forgets is TOI distribution. That alone would be huge for this team. Suddenly we can have a proper 2nd line that can take important minutes away from the top guys. Everybody else also get push down to more comfortable TOI. Having our top line playing 20-21 minutes versus 24-25 is huge not only offensively but defensively as well. They would be more capable of putting more pressure offensively and also defend better being less tired.

Henrique was just an example but it also goes for guys like Frost, Lawton, etc. Would that be enough to win another SC?...maybe not. We would definitely need at least a 90%-Landy and a healthy Nuke (both physically and mentally). We would also need our top guys to stay healthy. Is it too much to expect? Probably but at least it is giving us a much better chance than playing Ryjo even at 4C. Even Colton/Laughton as 2C and 3C would be better than having Ryjo in the lineup just skating around. So like I said nobody will convince me it won't move the needle.

With that said just like everybody else I would prefer a better option like Mitts, Nelson etc. but if a trade like that is not there to be made doing something is better than keeping Ryjo in the lineup.

And I know I have been making annoying posts about Drouin at 2C but even that and getting a top-6 W would be a huge improvement on what we have now. Just about ANYTHING would move the needle.

 

[John Mandalorian]

"He can play" is doing a whole lotta work here. You're basically settling for Tyson Jost 2.0. I suppose he could "play" just like Jost could "play" but do you really want to settle for that?

Tyson Jost 2.0 or Tyson Jost *2?

Jost's best season has been .37 ppg. Frost was at .57 last year and .60 this year, in spite of being in the dog house for much of it.

Frost isnt an elite skater but he is shifty and can at least create space for himself this way, where as Jost could not. He's also better/more composed around the net.

Frost might not be some ideal but this Jost 2.0 stuff misses the mark entirely.

 

[henchman21]

Frost is a better Jost... but he's yet another undersized, weak skating center. We know how that works in Bednar's system and it isn't pretty. In fact, we already had the slightly better skating, more talented version in Newhook... who also didn't work. It isn't that Frost is the worst player in the world, it is that we already know he isn't a stylistic fit.

The Avs should really avoid that well unless a player has proven to be more than just a 45 point guy. If an undersized, meh skating center is a 60-65 point guy and has shown success... sure. Just not a guy who has not shown that success yet.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Nobody will convince me that most names being brought up will not move the needle.

Let's take Henrique for example. He might be playing W mostly nowadays but he can still play C. Point-wise a lone we go from .36 PPG to .67 PPG from Ryjo to him. He is also certainly better than Ryjo on defense when Ryjo is dead tired after only a 15 secs shift.

The biggest improvement though that everybody forgets is TOI distribution. That alone would be huge for this team. Suddenly we can have a proper 2nd line that can take important minutes away from the top guys. Everybody else also get push down to more comfortable TOI. Having our top line playing 20-21 minutes versus 24-25 is huge not only offensively but defensively as well. They would be more capable of putting more pressure offensively and also defend better being less tired.

Henrique was just an example but it also goes for guys like Frost, Lawton, etc. Would that be enough to win another SC?...maybe not. We would definitely need at least a 90%-Landy and a healthy Nuke (both physically and mentally). We would also need our top guys to stay healthy. Is it too much to expect? Probably but at least it is giving us a much better chance than playing Ryjo even at 4C. Even Colton/Laughton as 2C and 3C would be better than having Ryjo in the lineup just skating around. So like I said nobody will convince me it won't move the needle.

With that said just like everybody else I would prefer a better option like Mitts, Nelson etc. but if a trade like that is not there to be made doing something is better than keeping Ryjo in the lineup.

And I know I have been making annoying posts about Drouin at 2C but even that and getting a top-6 W would be a huge improvement on what we have now. Just about ANYTHING would move the needle.

I dont think the comparison should be to RyJo quite frankly.

Sure compared to RyJo anybody will be an upgrade really.


But when it comes to a deep playoff run or possible cup win, IMO you cant just compare to RyJo. You have to compare to what a baseline actual 2C would do. Or compare to the Center depth of our western conference competition.


Henrique might allow us to win a round, but I don't see how Henrique matches up against the likes of Leon in Edmonton, Miller/Petey in Vancouver, whoever is playing 2C in Dallas, etc. Its still a weak point compared to the other best teams in the league.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I’m sorry but there’s no way a Landy who hasn’t played hockey in 2 years after a very major surgery comes back at the level he was at prior to that surgery. Dude was pacing for 90pts his last season. Even without the injury, Landys 31 and would be dealing with some natural regression as is. Nuke was having a near Smythe level cup run, which he’s obviously still capable of.

As for Drouin and Bura it’s not really close right now. The Bura hate here is wild. Dude was flawed but was a damn good player for us. Buras worst season with the Avs would be Drouins career high and Bura was one of the best zone entry players in the entire NHL, Drouin doesn’t offer much outside of production and he just edges him out over a 28 game sample size as opposed to Buras ~200
games here.

This current team can be good and win a cup with the right additions, but it’s not going to rival one of the best cup winners in the cap era. And that’s okay that’s a completely unrealistic bar to try and reach again.

I don't disagree on Landy. I did say we need him at 80% at least to be successful during these playoffs.

Agree to disagree on the rest.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I dont think the comparison should be to RyJo quite frankly.

Sure compared to RyJo anybody will be an upgrade really.


But when it comes to a deep playoff run or possible cup win, IMO you cant just compare to RyJo. You have to compare to what a baseline actual 2C would do. Or compare to the Center depth of our western conference competition.


Henrique might allow us to win a round, but I don't see how Henrique matches up against the likes of Leon in Edmonton, Miller/Petey in Vancouver, whoever is playing 2C in Dallas, etc. Its still a weak point compared to the other best teams in the league.

But it should be to Ryjo. With Ryjo in the lineup we now have Colton as 2C and a very bad 4th line with Ryjo as the C. Don't tell me that a line of Lehky - Henrique - Nuke is not MUCH better than with Ryjo on it. And don't discard everything I said about TOI distribution. That is a huge boost.

We have been able to stay 3rd-7th overall all year with Ryjo in the lineup being an anchor.

I do agree with you though that a lot would have to go right to go all the way to a SC.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Parise for example would have been a nice signing, had we not had massive 2nd line problems. But when you have the 2nd line problem, singing Parise is a bad move/completely worthless move as it takes away money and didn't solve any issues.

I’m not sure I can get behind this thought. How is Parise a nice signing yet takes away money… on an 825k contract? Literally anybody who takes his place would, at maximum, cost 75k less.

This is not a contract that rules out the ability to trade for a 2c?

We can all agree there’s lots to criticize management for but this ain’t it imo.

 

[chet1926]

I’m not sure I can get behind this thought. How is Parise a nice signing yet takes away money… on an 825k contract? Literally anybody who takes his place would, at maximum, cost 75k less.

This is not a contract that rules out the ability to trade for a 2c?

We can all agree there’s lots to criticize management for but this ain’t it imo.

You clearly didn't read. I said, he would have been a good signing, had we not had massive 2nd line issues. But since we have massive 2nd line issues, he was a terrible signing and complete waste of money. His money could be allocated towards 2nd line help.

You can't spend money to fix small holes when there is a massive leak.

 

[henchman21]

But it should be to Ryjo. With Ryjo in the lineup we now have Colton as 2C and a very bad 4th line with Ryjo as the C. Don't tell me that a line of Lehky - Henrique - Nuke is not MUCH better than with Ryjo on it. And don't discard everything I said about TOI distribution. That is a huge boost.

We have been able to stay 3rd-7th overall all year with Ryjo in the lineup being an anchor.

I do agree with you though that a lot would have to go right to go all the way to a SC.

I'd be a little hesitant using this as a basis. First off, many great regular season teams don't hold up in the playoffs. Secondly, the Avs have faced an absurdly easy schedule (most places rate it 28th-32nd) and you can ride top players and hot steaks to wins... over time and with elevated competition that tends to balance out. The Avs as a whole, win pretty much every game against non-playoff teams (sans Arizona), but struggle against the better teams.

As an example, the Avs have faced teams currently in a playoff spot 12 times since Jan 1, their record is 6-6 (one of the 6 wins was in a shootout one of the losses was in OT) or a .541 points percentage. This is actually an improvement compared to the rest of the year... they went 1-4 in December. 3-3 in November. When the competition elevates, the Avs have a harder time patching the holes in the lineup. Naturally as they go into the playoffs and face those better teams, it is going to be even more difficult.