Blue Jays GDT: 2024 v5 | Wed, Aug 7 | vs Bal | 7pm ET/4pm PT | Kremer vs Gausman

[jetsforever]

I feel bad for anyone who paid to watch todays game. Yikes

Was my first Jays home game in 6 years or so

 

[RoadWarrior]

It's crazy that in 2024 people are still using batting average as their go-to stat for whether a player is good offensively or not. I'm surprised these people aren't trying to fax their opinions into this message board.

Batting average is a key component of on base %. If you don’t get on base you can’t score. So yeah it matters.

 

[Discoverer]

Batting average is a key component of on base %. If you don’t get on base you can’t score. So yeah it matters.

And yet there are other stats that tell you MUCH more about the player and you've chosen to ignore those ones.

 

[Anthrax442]

Was my first Jays home game in 6 years or so

Feel bad for you. First time in years I twice refused free pretty decent tickets.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

League average is .243 according to Basebal-reference.com. Varsho is hitting .201 right now. If that’s 5% less it’s a deceiving stat. Not even close to league average.

Let’s look at a few other offensive stats:

League average OPS is .709, Varsho’s is .677. League average SLG is .397, Varsho’s is .393. OBP league wide is .312, Varsho is .284.

His offence is indefensible. Great defensive outfielder however.

Why the f*** are we disregarding or diminishing the value of batting average, you know, that thing that tells you hits per at-bat. You need hits to score runs, so yeah, it's an important stat. Is it the only stat we should be looking at? No. But you mentioned league average and I gave you OPS, SLG, OPG where Varsho is BELOW league average in each of them. Even the OPS+ of 94 is below the league average of 100. If he was hitting .201 yet was at league average or above in some of these other stats I could understand defending him. He's not even close to his career average in these stats.

I want to like Varsho, great defensive outfielder, he looks like a nice guy, but dammit he's a shitty hitter in the majority of most offensive metrics. People notice because they see him fail to get a hit 8 out of 10 times. He's at the Mendoza Line, traditionally defined as the threshold of offensive futility.

 

[LaP]

He’s the best defensive player in baseball and hits 5% below league average and basically average for his position.

He’s a terrific player and this post is like saying that Ozzie Smith was just some meh utility player.

Are you saying Varsho is as good as Ozzie Smith? I'm a bit confused here.

League average is .243 according to Basebal-reference.com. Varsho is hitting .201 right now. If that’s 5% less it’s a deceiving stat. Not even close to league average.

Let’s look at a few other offensive stats:

League average OPS is .709, Varsho’s is .677. League average SLG is .397, Varsho’s is .393. OBP league wide is .312, Varsho is .284.

His offence is indefensible. Great defensive outfielder however.

My problem with Varsho offensively speaking (i'm not denying his defense) is not how far or not he is from league's average it's that his offensive profil is pretty bad. He's not getting on base (hits or walks) and he has decent power at best and on top of that he is easy to strikeout.

He runs the base well and if he was getting on base just a bit more it would increase his effectiveness a lot. Just hitting 240 and getting just a little bit more walks and a little bit less striekout would already make Varsho significantly better.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Why the f*** are we disregarding or diminishing the value of batting average, you know, that thing that tells you hits per at-bat. You need hits to score runs, so yeah, it's an important stat. Is it the only stat we should be looking at? No. But you mentioned league average and I gave you OPS, SLG, OPG where Varsho is BELOW league average in each of them. Even the OPS+ of 94 is below the league average of 100. If he was hitting .201 yet was at league average or above in some of these other stats I could understand defending him. He's not even close to his career average in these stats.

I want to like Varsho, great defensive outfielder, he looks like a nice guy, but dammit he's a shitty hitter in the majority of most offensive metrics. People notice because they see him fail to get a hit 8 out of 10 times. He's at the Mendoza Line, traditionally defined as the threshold of offensive futility.

If he had a .750 OPS he would be, arguably, the most valuable player on this roster. I hope he can spend this winter working with a Matt Hague to find something that can help him be that hitter.

 

[LaP]

If he had a .750 OPS he would be, arguably, the most valuable player on this roster. I hope he can spend this winter working with a Matt Hague to find something that can help him be that hitter.

If he had a 750 OPS it would mean he would either get on base more which would make him a lot more valuable because he has good speed or it would means he would hit with more power which would also make him a lot more valuable because OBP and strikeouts matter far less if you hit with power.

 

[Suntouchable13]

If he had a 750 OPS it would mean he would either get on base more which would make him a lot more valuable because he has good speed or it would means he would hit with more power which would also make him a lot more valuable because OBP and strikeouts matter far less if you hit with power.

It is still wild that his WAR, according to Baseball Reference, is 3.3! Steve Kwan is at 3.5, and he is a much better hitter, Jose Ramirez has the same 3.5. Unbelievable. If Varsho hit at .750 ops, he might be at 4 or 5 WAR by now.

 

[Discoverer]

Are you saying Varsho is as good as Ozzie Smith? I'm a bit confused here.


My problem with Varsho offensively speaking (i'm not denying his defense) is not how far or not he is from league's average it's that his offensive profil is pretty bad. He's not getting on base (hits or walks) and he has decent power at best and on top of that he is easy to strikeout.

He runs the base well and if he was getting on base just a bit more it would increase his effectiveness a lot. Just hitting 240 and getting just a little bit more walks and a little bit less striekout would already make Varsho significantly better.

Varsho's current OPS+ is 90. Smith's career OPS+ is 87. Like Smith in his time, Varsho is the best defender in the game. I don't see why it's that crazy. Smith's peak seasons were better than this, of course, but he didn't have better than a 90 wRC+ until he was 29.

Again, I don't think anyone's arguing that Varsho is a superstar. We're arguing AGAINST the ridiculous idea that he would be a 4th OF on any other team. He has a below average bat and an elite glove. That's a good player, despite how frustrating he can be at the plate.

The idea of him hitting .240 with more walks doesn't move him from a bench player to a starter... it moves him from a good starting CF to a borderline MVP candidate.

 

[LaP]

Varsho's current OPS+ is 90. Smith's career OPS+ is 87. Like Smith in his time, Varsho is the best defender in the game. I don't see why it's that crazy. Smith's peak seasons were better than this, of course, but he didn't have better than a 90 wRC+ until he was 29.

Again, I don't think anyone's arguing that Varsho is a superstar. We're arguing AGAINST the ridiculous idea that he would be a 4th OF on any other team. He has a below average bat and an elite glove. That's a good player, despite how frustrating he can be at the plate.

The idea of him hitting .240 with more walks doesn't move him from a bench player to a starter... it moves him from a good starting CF to a borderline MVP candidate.

Smith was getting on base and stealing base. One year his OBP was close to 400. If you check his prime only his OBP was probably around 360-370 something like that. He had 0 power which is why his OPS was low. Getting on base and stealing base you will help your team. OPS doesn't tell you everything. There's not a single stats alone that can tell you if a player is good or not. I'm mind blown that people compare Varsho to Smith this is total madness to me,

 

[canucksfan]

When comparing players in different eras it's best to use wRC+. This takes into consideration ballpark factors and how well that player did against other hitters.

 

[dredeye]

Was my first Jays home game in 6 years or so

LOL that f'n sucks man. It's funny I was driving home and listening to the fan on my way home to hear it was a day game. I almost turned around to go catch the game for fun but luckily for me I guess my stomach was off so decided to just go home.

Smith was getting on base and stealing base. One year his OBP was close to 400. If you check his prime only his OBP was probably around 360-370 something like that. He had 0 power which is why his OPS was low. Getting on base and stealing base you will help your team. OPS doesn't tell you everything. There's not a single stats alone that can tell you if a player is good or not. I'm mind blown that people compare Varsho to Smith this is total madness to me,

Completely off topic but this just made me think of it. I don't know why but at jays home games they use OPS on the scoreboard for batters instead of AVG. It really doesn't make sense to me that they do that.

 

[canucksfan]

LOL that f'n sucks man. It's funny I was driving home and listening to the fan on my way home to hear it was a day game. I almost turned around to go catch the game for fun but luckily for me I guess my stomach was off so decided to just go home.


Completely off topic but this just made me think of it. I don't know why but at jays home games they use OPS on the scoreboard for batters instead of AVG. It really doesn't make sense to me that they do that.

Because OPS is a better stat than AVG

 

[MS]

Batting average is a key component of on base %. If you don’t get on base you can’t score. So yeah it matters.

Why the f*** are we disregarding or diminishing the value of batting average, you know, that thing that tells you hits per at-bat. You need hits to score runs, so yeah, it's an important stat. Is it the only stat we should be looking at? No. But you mentioned league average and I gave you OPS, SLG, OPG where Varsho is BELOW league average in each of them. Even the OPS+ of 94 is below the league average of 100. If he was hitting .201 yet was at league average or above in some of these other stats I could understand defending him. He's not even close to his career average in these stats.

I want to like Varsho, great defensive outfielder, he looks like a nice guy, but dammit he's a shitty hitter in the majority of most offensive metrics. People notice because they see him fail to get a hit 8 out of 10 times. He's at the Mendoza Line, traditionally defined as the threshold of offensive futility.

Are you saying Varsho is as good as Ozzie Smith? I'm a bit confused here.


My problem with Varsho offensively speaking (i'm not denying his defense) is not how far or not he is from league's average it's that his offensive profil is pretty bad. He's not getting on base (hits or walks) and he has decent power at best and on top of that he is easy to strikeout.

He runs the base well and if he was getting on base just a bit more it would increase his effectiveness a lot. Just hitting 240 and getting just a little bit more walks and a little bit less striekout would already make Varsho significantly better.

Holy shit.

This isn't 1945.

We can use stats like OPS, OPS+, WRC+ in 2024 to get a complete picture of how effective a player is at the plate which are much better, much more accurate, much more comprehensive stats that batting average.

Varsho's OPS is nearly identical to all of Jansen, Schneider, Clement, Turner, Springer. He's been a slightly below-average hitter this year. This is fact. It's incredible that people don't understand this. He has a low average but lots of XBH and takes quite a few walks to mostly make up for that low average.

And yes, he's basically having an Ozzie Smith season this year. Average hitting relative to a premium defensive position while being literally the best defensive player in the sport. He's on pace for a 5 bWAR season and has been the best player on the team this year and incredibly fans who don't understand math have singled him out as the biggest problem and some don't even think he should be a regular player. It's insane.

 

[atreyuavenged]

Rays deal a star and we'll probably end up twiddling our thumbs while looking like dog water.

Would sell anything not nailed down atm.

 

[shaner8989]

While batting average isn’t the be all of everything….. nobody hitting .200 is or will ever be considered a good hitter. It’s f***ing atrocious. Period

 

[canucksfan]

While batting average isn’t the be all of everything….. nobody hitting .200 is or will ever be considered a good hitter. It’s f***ing atrocious. Period

For the most part yes. However, Schwarber last year batted .197 but had a wRC+ of 119. He had a walk rate of 17.5% and slugged .474

 

[shaner8989]

For the most part yes. However, Schwarber last year batted .197 but had a wRC+ of 119. He had a walk rate of 17.5% and slugged .474

That’s so wild and likely a 1 in a million type stat line. Almost 50% of his hits were HR. That’s insane. If Varsho hit .200 with 47 HR and 104 RBI I would have zero complaints. Never ever happen though.

 

[trellaine201]

Varsho is in a tough spot. In my viewing ever since arriving in TO has been a good defender but couldn’t hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Nice looking swing though. I wouldn’t consider him an everyday player on a good team. Just doesn’t do enough offensively unfortunately. Nice guy though.

 

[metafour]

Varsho is in a tough spot. In my viewing ever since arriving in TO has been a good defender but couldn’t hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Nice looking swing though. I wouldn’t consider him an everyday player on a good team. Just doesn’t do enough offensively unfortunately. Nice guy though.

He is 15th in the league among qualified CF's with a 92 wRC+. Fun fact, he is 9-points worse than Seattle Mariners "superstar" Julio Rodriguez who has a 101 wRC+ this season.

Again - we have stats for all of this; and can easily compare him to other players at his position and then determine where he ranks. After that, you can pretty easily discern whether or not he provides enough value to be a "starter" (spoiler alert: it really isn't even close).

No, he has not been a "good hitter". But he is the best defender among all outfielders and is also tied for 7th best in terms of baserunning runs above average.

You are now free to respond with: "he hits .200, this means he is a 4th outfielder trollolol".

 

[Eyedea]

Varsho’s put up 77 DRS in roughly 3 full seasons in the OF. The next closest to him based on 2020-2024 data is KK with 50. Since it started tracking in 2003, he’s already 14th among OFers and will likely crack top 10 by the end of the season… FYI KK is 1st among OF in DRS and Varsho is trending to pass him in ~4 more full seasons…

He isn’t just some defensive replacement and it’s pretty clear based on him already accumulating 2 fWAR (and 3 rWAR) this season.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Wow, another game on apple TV. F off.

 

[MK78]

Wow, another game on apple TV. F off.

Yeah get ready for hockey this fall on amazon.

 

[MK78]

Horwitz with a 2 run double. *this* close from it being a 3 run homer.

This guy absolutely needs to be in the lineup every day next year.