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Red Sox/MLB 2024 Regular Season 2: Ángel Hernández to retire: Much-maligned MLB umpire calling it quits

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RoccoF14

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Dennis Bonvie said:
Most baseball historians consider Josh Gibson every bit the superstar that satchel Paige was.
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No doubt Josh Gibson was an all time great hitter, but I think @McGarnagle makes a very valid point. The record keeping in the Negro Leagues during his era was spotty at best. Then again, if MLB has vetted the records and think they're valid, who am I to disagree. MLB is usually pretty particular about its stats.

On a related note....This is a great book.

1716949691999.png
 
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Ben Grimm

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McGarnagle said:
I know they're doing this for altruistic reasons but I just think it's muddying up the record books. I don't mind if they hold up the Negro League stats as being on par with MLB ones but putting them all under one umbrella and claiming that Josh Gibson's 1937 OPS is the major league record is misleading.

Between competition levels, schedule formats, and lack of documentation of many games and stats, comparing Gibson with even a contemporary like Joe DiMaggio is apples and oranges and doesn't paint an accurate picture of baseball history IMO.
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Agreed. The top NEL players were as good, but there was less depth and the fences were shorter. Both those points are documented.
 
McGarnagle

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Elvis P said:
Agreed. The top NEL players were as good, but there was less depth and the fences were shorter. Both those points are documented.
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That's sort of where I land. The leagues were top-heavy, which is to say there were some legit all-time greats like Robinson, Mays, Paige, Gibson, etc. who absolutely could've hung with anyone in the majors, but as a whole the depth was lacking. Plus that for many of those years it was kind of a barnstorming circuit rather than an organized league. You'd basically have the Homestead Grays as a de facto all-star team playing 75 games travelling around against other teams in the circuit who'd play 45 games or fewer. But that's all a consequence of its semi-pro status, and had they had the financial support or opportunities white players had they'd probably have developed more stars. I just don't think it's accurate to compare statistics.

I'd actually argue that if anyone deserves major league status it's the Pacific Coast League of the 30s and 40s which produced a lot of legendary players.
 
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BigBadBruins7708

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I just cant get myself on board with this one. There are too many differences in the leagues for it to make sense.

This would be like the NHL adding WHA stats to the NHL record book and making Bobby Hull the career leader in goals.
 
Dennis Bonvie

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McGarnagle said:
That's sort of where I land. The leagues were top-heavy, which is to say there were some legit all-time greats like Robinson, Mays, Paige, Gibson, etc. who absolutely could've hung with anyone in the majors, but as a whole the depth was lacking. Plus that for many of those years it was kind of a barnstorming circuit rather than an organized league. You'd basically have the Homestead Grays as a de facto all-star team playing 75 games travelling around against other teams in the circuit who'd play 45 games or fewer. But that's all a consequence of its semi-pro status, and had they had the financial support or opportunities white players had they'd probably have developed more stars. I just don't think it's accurate to compare statistics.

I'd actually argue that if anyone deserves major league status it's the Pacific Coast League of the 30s and 40s which produced a lot of legendary players.
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White propaganda.

www.baseball-reference.com

Negro Leagues = Major Leagues | Baseball-Reference.com

The Negro Leagues are Major Leagues
www.baseball-reference.com www.baseball-reference.com
 
RoccoF14

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BigBadBruins7708 said:
I just cant get myself on board with this one. There are too many differences in the leagues for it to make sense.

This would be like the NHL adding WHA stats to the NHL record book and making Bobby Hull the career leader in goals.
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I think this isn't specific to the Negro Leagues however. Baseball has always had variation and inconsistencies.

For example: You had ballpark configuration inconsistencies. Playing at the Polo Grounds or old Yankee Stadium meant that you weren't hitting a HR to center field. You Might get more extra base hits however. Ebbets field was the opposite. You could easily hit a HR to center, and if you were a lefty pull hitter, you feasted on the short RF porch. Ballpark configuration definitely influenced stats and the history of the game. Willie Mays doesn't make that catch in the '54 World Series if that ball is hit in Cleveland, instead of the Polo Grounds. That's a HR in Cleveland.

You also had a significant dilution/loss of talent during the war years. The DH was only in effect for half of MLB teams. Another inconsistency that affected career stats for both pitching and hitting. Those stats are still valid, however.

That said, I DO believe that there's a misperception that the Negro Leagues were loaded with Major League talent. Yes, there were a LOT of players that never got the opportunity to play in MLB due to disgraceful race policies, but to assume that every negro league player could have made it in MLB, if given the chance, is an assumption that I'm not willing to make. A lot of those Negro League teams were incredibly top heavy in talent, similar to MLB, as the stronger teams poached from the weaker ones, who had to sell to stay afloat. So I think there's a lot more similarities than differences between the 2 leagues.
 
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BigBadBruins7708

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RoccoF14 said:
I think this isn't specific to the Negro Leagues however. Baseball has always had variation and inconsistencies.

For example: You had ballpark configuration inconsistencies. Playing at the Polo Grounds or old Yankee Stadium meant that you weren't hitting a HR to center field. You Might get more extra base hits however. Ebbets field was the opposite. You could easily hit a HR to center, and if you were a lefty pull hitter, you feasted on the short RF porch.

You also had a significant dilution/loss of talent during the war years. Those stats are still valid too.

That said, I DO believe that he misperception that the Negro Leagues were loaded with Major League talent. Yes, there were a LOT of players that never got the opportunity to play in MLB due to disgraceful race policies, but the assume that every negro league player could have made it in MLB, if given the chance, is an assumption that I'm not willing to make and a lot of those Negro League teams were incredibly top heavy in talent, similar to MLB, as the stronger teams poached from the weaker ones, who had to sell to stay afloat.
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true but at least in the same league everyone is playing by the same rules and the same number of games. the Negro League had to much concentration of talent on a couple teams and everyone didnt play the same # of games. I get it was a factor of the time, but it still makes the records incompatible with MLB stats.
 
Dennis Bonvie

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RoccoF14 said:
You Might get more extra base hits however. Ebbets field was the opposite. You could easily hit a HR to center, and if you were a lefty pull hitter, you feasted on the short RF porch.You also had a significant dilution/loss of talent during the war years. Those stats are still valid too.That said, I DO believe that he misperception that the Negro Leagues were loaded with Major League talent. Yes, there were a LOT of players that never got the opportunity to play in MLB due to disgraceful race policies, but the assume that every negro league player could have made it in MLB, if given the chance, is an assumption that I'm not willing to make and a lot of those Negro League teams were incredibly top heavy in talent, similar to MLB, as the stronger teams poached from the weaker ones, who had to sell to stay afloat.
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Why not?

Could you assume every major league player could have made it in the Negro Leagues? I'm not willing to make that assumption.
 
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Walkenthewalk

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Noticed in last night's box score that Devers was credited with a triple. Skeptically I wondered how many fielders had to fall down to allow that to happen. Turns out it was a thing of beauty - a blistering line drive the other way off a LHP that Raffy actually legged out - and the play at 3rd wasn't particularly close. That has to be a good sign.
 
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