HF Habs: 2024 NHL Draft Thread

[Trabdy2]

I said Iginla was the surest thing between the two to become a 30 goals 30 assists forward. Not exactly what I would call a blue chipper.

I wouldn't be upset at any of Catton, Lindstrom, Demidov or Iginla for that matter. You can even add Buium and Dickinson to this list.

And yes, Sennecke is a complete mystery box. He plays weird, he's often disengaged, he beats defenders in a way that is pretty much impossible to do consistently in the NHL in juniors, and despite all that, he still has not proven he's a dominant offensive player statistically wise. Like mrb1p said earilier in this said, the same stuff is getting repeated ad nauseam by the same 2 or 3 people in this thread. That he has the best hands in the draft, that he has game-breaking potential, that he's all this and all that. And then when you ask questions about his sub-par offensive output, all you get as an answer is "muh growth spurt" or "muh Scheifele".

I'm sorry, this just doesn't add up. This is playing a game of 4D chess when there's no need to, really.

In a parallel universe where we drafted Leonard and where we'd have a pick in the 10-13 range, I'd say hell. Why not.

But at 5th overall, sitting on a literally empty forwards prospects pool, with a guy like Iginla who's pretty much as safe a bet as you can take? Come on... we're just trying to make a hard exercise even harder on ourselves.

We're at a point where people here are saying that Joshua Roy is our best forward prospect. We REALLY don't have to make this that complicated. Get the guy who has the highest shot at playing on your top-6 someday and call it a day.

I said it earlier and I'll say it again; with a pick that high there is such a thing called risk management. And Sennecke is a hell of a risky pick whether people here want to admit it or not. You're betting on him turning into a completely different player than he is now, because what he is now is never going to cut it in the NHL.

I think Sennecke often looks weird because of his creativity. He tries things that other players without his vision or tools/skill might even attempt. And sometimes they work out. It's not like all his success has come from plays like this though.

I think it's a quality you like to see in a prospect as long as it isn't frequently costing his team chances and goals against. It shows they have ideas and they have the skill level to do things that defenders can't predict and other players can't even attempt because of their lack of skill/vision. When in the hands of a proper development team, it gives a great "canvas" to work with. They can help him with decision making and knowing when to follow a routine/safe/system play, and when to take the creative risks. I think this is where the game breaking potential exists.

I think Sennecke's skating, hockey sense, hands, shot and physical ability all project to NHL quality. It's just about filling out his frame and maturing his habits before he becomes an NHL player, and this is something that every pretty much every player in this draft (not named Celebrini) will need to improve upon to a greater or lesser degree before they can be successful in the NHL.

 

[HuGort]

Interesting blog about herniated discs and hockey players. The Lumbar Disc Herniation & Hockey Athletes - Remi Sovran

The prognosis is rather discouraging, though who knows, perhaps orthopedics will get better over time.

I wouldn't risk drafting Lindstrom. That article didn't sound good. Nathan Horton, Joffrey Lupul had same injury.

 

[Team_Spirit]

Yeah that's why hockey players are big on yoga, core training. Most have lower back pain, if you rarely skate you can feel it the next day...

We often see the players wearing lower back support when we see images from the locker room.

Lindstrom will fall

What’s Up With Low Back Pain? - Minnesota Hockey Magazine

TRIA provides some answers

minnesotahockeymag.com

 

[le_sean]

You cite the same piece twice — and ignore other people who said he’s a perfectly fine person and find the criticism of his character uncalled for. Goes to show your bias.

I never said he’s a perfect character, but I do think nonsense said about him pre-draft was no more than hysterical smears.

We’ll know as he enters the NHL. It’s not worth bickering about today.

(And I wouldn’t give a rat’s behind what Lapointe the roid head has to say about anybody’s )

Who said he’s a fine person? Daniel Briere?

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Who said he’s a fine person? Daniel Briere?

Why would the opinion of some random Capitals scout be worth more than the opinion of a random GM?

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

Not a doctor obviously but having known people with herniated discs it makes me pretty hesitant to take a chance like that.

Back injuries really suck.

Same with me. I would like the player otherwise (though I prefer Demidov and Catton) but the blog cites a specific paper that indicates that players' performance is significantly affected by this injury. Maybe there are better surgeons out there who can improve on those stats, but I find a herniated disc very dissuasive.
Based on 87 NHL players...

• Average games played dropped from 56.2 (preinjury) to 39 (post injury)
• Averages point per game dropped from 0.22 (preinjury) to 0.17 (post injury)
• Performance score dropped from 0.79 (preinjury) to 0.46 (post injury)

Edit:
Schroeder, G. D., McCarthy, K. J., Micev, A. J., Terry, M. A., & Hsu, W. K. (2013). Performance-based outcomes after nonoperative treatment, discectomy, and/or fusion for a lumbar disc herniation in national hockey league athletes.The American Journal of Sports Medicine, 41(11), 2604-2608.

Note: it dates from 2013, so maybe surgical outcomes have improved, but this is a major load-bearing area, and surgeons cannot perform miracles.

 

[le_sean]

Why would the opinion of some random Capitals scout be worth more than the opinion of a random GM?

Yeah why would the GM that drafted him lie?

We have Ryan Kennedy of The Hockey News saying there were character concerns. Mathias Brunet echoed the same sentiment. Ray Whitney talked about how some SKA teammates didn’t like him. Caps Russian scout saying he’s a shithead. Grier saying they didn’t want him, Hughes and company didn’t want him, he didn’t even bother meeting with the Coyotes.

It’s a lot more than one scout.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Yeah why would the GM that drafted him lie?

We have Ryan Kennedy of The Hockey News saying there were character concerns. Mathias Brunet echoed the same sentiment. Ray Whitney talked about how some SKA teammates didn’t like him. Caps Russian scout saying he’s a shithead. Grier saying they didn’t want him, Hughes and company didn’t want him, he didn’t even bother meeting with the Coyotes.

It’s a lot more than one scout.

Why would the opinion of a scout that didn't draft him be worth anything? Let's not act like every top player in the NHL is Bergeron lmao, there are plenty of guys who you'd think are assholes if you met them but are still great players.

 

[le_sean]

Why would the opinion of a scout that didn't draft him be worth anything? Let's not act like every top player in the NHL is Bergeron lmao, there are plenty of guys who you'd think are assholes if you met them but are still great players.

I just gave you a list of 7 people/teams that said there was something wrong with his character. Are all 7 lying and Sanny from HFboards who has never met him right?

Why would random people drag him through the mud for no good reason? What’s the benefit? Just accept that he’s an arrogant shithead. Not meeting with a team that has a chance to draft you is pathetic. Even Bedard took the time to meet with his requested interviews. He had no reason to meet with the Habs and he did it.

 

[sampollock]

I'm not touching Lindstrom with a 30 ft pole with the 5th OA pick now with the new reports out. I'm content with one of Iginla or sennecke

New reports??

 

[McGees]

There are a lot of thoughts on this thread but all I know FOR SURE is my guy is better than your guy.

#BustyMcBusterson

 

[BeliveauFan4ever]

Honestly we have gotten to the part of the discourse where everyone has dug in on their guys and won't change their opinion.

Most of the recent posts have been the guy I like has no risk and is guaranteed to be this and the guy I don't like has big risk and isn't the guarantee people who like him think he is.

And this draft maybe moreso than most screams “don’t get locked in on any one player.”

Only San Jose fans have that ticket.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I said Iginla was the surest thing between the two to become a 30 goals 30 assists forward. Not exactly what I would call a blue chipper.

I wouldn't be upset at any of Catton, Lindstrom, Demidov or Iginla for that matter. You can even add Buium and Dickinson to this list.

And yes, Sennecke is a complete mystery box. He plays weird, he's often disengaged, he beats defenders in a way that is pretty much impossible to do consistently in the NHL in juniors, and despite all that, he still has not proven he's a dominant offensive player statistically wise. Like mrb1p said earilier in this said, the same stuff is getting repeated ad nauseam by the same 2 or 3 people in this thread. That he has the best hands in the draft, that he has game-breaking potential, that he's all this and all that. And then when you ask questions about his sub-par offensive output, all you get as an answer is "muh growth spurt" or "muh Scheifele".

I'm sorry, this just doesn't add up. This is playing a game of 4D chess when there's no need to, really.

In a parallel universe where we drafted Leonard and where we'd have a pick in the 10-13 range, I'd say hell. Why not.

But at 5th overall, sitting on a literally empty forwards prospects pool, with a guy like Iginla who's pretty much as safe a bet as you can take? Come on... we're just trying to make a hard exercise even harder on ourselves.

We're at a point where people here are saying that Joshua Roy is our best forward prospect. We REALLY don't have to make this that complicated. Get the guy who has the highest shot at playing on your top-6 someday and call it a day.

I said it earlier and I'll say it again; with a pick that high there is such a thing called risk management. And Sennecke is a hell of a risky pick whether people here want to admit it or not. You're betting on him turning into a completely different player than he is now, because what he is now is never going to cut it in the NHL.

We all saw your rant. I'm not going to dissect it.

Totally fine to not like a player. Totally fine to be skeptical. But you're way over the top here.

 

[Kents polished head]

We all saw your rant. I'm not going to dissect it.

Totally fine to not like a player. Totally fine to be skeptical. But you're way over the top here.

If you say so. I fail to see how stating my opinion is over the top.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

Same with me. I would like the player otherwise (though I prefer Demidov and Catton) but the blog cites a specific paper that indicates that players' performance is significantly affected by this injury. Maybe there are better surgeons out there who can improve on those stats, but I find a herniated disc very dissuasive.
Based on 87 NHL players...

• Average games played dropped from 56.2 (preinjury) to 39 (post injury)
• Averages point per game dropped from 0.22 (preinjury) to 0.17 (post injury)
• Performance score dropped from 0.79 (preinjury) to 0.46 (post injury)

Edit:
Schroeder, G. D., McCarthy, K. J., Micev, A. J., Terry, M. A., & Hsu, W. K. (2013). Performance-based outcomes after nonoperative treatment, discectomy, and/or fusion for a lumbar disc herniation in national hockey league athletes.The American Journal of Sports Medicine, 41(11), 2604-2608.

Note: it dates from 2013, so maybe surgical outcomes have improved, but this is a major load-bearing area, and surgeons cannot perform miracles.

Here is a more recent paper. Return-to-Play Outcomes of Athletes After Operative and Nonoperative Treatment of Lumbar Disc Herniation
O'Connor SB, Holmberg KJ, Hammarstedt JE, Acosta JR, Monahan K, Sauber RD, Altman DT. Return-to-Play Outcomes of Athletes After Operative and Nonoperative Treatment of Lumbar Disc Herniation. Curr Rev Musculoskelet Med. 2023 May;16(5):192-200. doi: 10.1007/s12178-023-09829-z. Epub 2023 Mar 31. PMID: 36997833; PMCID: PMC10188705.

The short version: it matters which procedure injured players undergo. It's possible, even likely, that recent surgeries result in better outcomes. Some highlights:

Hockey​

Schroeder et al. ... However, it was noted that players who underwent a lumbar fusion successfully returned to play 100% (8 of 8) of the time for an average of 203 games over a 4-year period, which may represent and entirely different cohort than what we are trying to understand in the scope of this study. Additionally, there was no significant difference between the number of games played per season before and after a lumbar fusion [29]. Although a small sample size in the lumbar fusion group makes it difficult to draw conclusions, these findings suggest that a single-level lumbar fusion does not define a career-ending surgery for elite hockey players as previously suggested [30].

... Yamaya et al. examined the outcomes of transforaminal percutaneous endoscopic lumbar discectomy (PELD) in high school athletes suffering from LDH and found even higher RTP rates of 94.4% an average of 7 weeks after surgery [32]. While this procedure did allow for high RTP rates and short recovery times, there are some barriers in selecting this intervention. Surgeons must be trained to perform transforaminal PELD without causing complications such as exiting nerve root injury. Additionally, long-term prognosis and possibility of symptom recurrence are not yet as thoroughly understood as more traditional methods like LD.

Hockey​

Schroeder et al. ...This finding is different from what was previously seen in NFL and NBA players who generally have preserved athletic performance after treatment for LDH. However, of the 8 players who underwent lumbar fusion for treatment of their LDH, these findings were not the case. Players treated with lumbar fusion had no significant difference in performance score after treatment, and instead had a significant increase in points per game postoperatively [29]. Although the sample size was small, these findings demonstrate potential for players at this elite level to successfully continue their preinjury level of sport.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

I just gave you a list of 7 people/teams that said there was something wrong with his character. Are all 7 lying and Sanny from HFboards who has never met him right?

Why would random people drag him through the mud for no good reason? What’s the benefit? Just accept that he’s an arrogant shithead. Not meeting with a team that has a chance to draft you is pathetic. Even Bedard took the time to meet with his requested interviews. He had no reason to meet with the Habs and he did it.

So I looked into it and I assume you mean Ryan Whitney, in which case please never seriously cite him as a source again.

Ryan Kennedy's article is godawful and reads like a gossip magazine, also giving no sources.

So it's on the word of Brunet, some teammates allegedly, the Washington scout who never had a realistic shot at drafting him, and two GMs passing on him for positions of need.

As for the teammates, plenty of great players in hockey pissed off their teammates a lot more than Michkov did. Ask Craig Janney.

 

[NobleSix]

Just realized I'm on call for the weekend of the draft.

This means that the Habs will draft Demidov and pull off one of the biggest trades of the century on draft night. Hope you all enjoy it while I'm out working.

Yippee.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'll say my opinion as I see fit, as long as it doesn't disrespect anybody personally and as long as it's done within the forum rules, thank you.

Nobody said you were breaking the rules. Your posts weren't deleted or modified so why bring this up?

I fail to see how being worried about this team picking a prospect I genuinely don't like is "over the top".

... it's not even the prospect that I don't like as much as the fact we have absolutely NO room for error if we want this rebuild to actually work out.

Nobody said you can't be worried about a prospect or express your opinion. That's what this place is for. But if your post is over the top, people are going to call you on it. You have the right to express your opinion and people have the right to challenge you on it. That's how this works.

In MY opinion, you were way over the top with that rant. All prospects are a mystery box to a certain extent but you phrased it as though Iginla was the sane choice and only a fool would take Sennecke. There's good reason to draft that guy, esp since Lidstrom appears to have real back issues. If we want a player with big physical upside, Senneke could absolutely be the best choice. It's not some crazy lunacy to draft him over Iginla. And before you say "I never said that"... you certainly presented it that way.

 

[Habitant#1]

There's no point being hysterical about a herniated disk if we don't know the severity or the location.

It's as vague as the term 'ligament injury'.

Could mean anything or nothing.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So I looked into it and I assume you mean Ryan Whitney, in which case please never seriously cite him as a source again.

Ryan Kennedy's article is godawful and reads like a gossip magazine, also giving no sources.

So it's on the word of Brunet, some teammates allegedly, the Washington scout who never had a realistic shot at drafting him, and two GMs passing on him for positions of need.

As for the teammates, plenty of great players in hockey pissed off their teammates a lot more than Michkov did. Ask Craig Janney.

Maybe there isn't consensus on Michkov but it's interesting to see that some people have a negative view on him. It doesn't definitively make him a problem but you can file it under 'red flag' to monitor in the future.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

There's no point being hysterical about a herniated disk if we don't know the severity or the location.

It's as vague as the term 'ligament injury'.

Could mean anything or nothing.

I was kind of hoping for Lindstrom.

We can't have nice things.

 

[NobleSix]

Columbus is taking Lindstrom. It's Demidov or defenseman for us I think.

If we take a defenseman we'll likely get a winger through trade for 26th + Mailloux.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Columbus is taking Lindstrom. It's Demidov or defenseman for us I think.

If we take a defenseman we'll likely get a winger through trade for 26th + Mailloux.

I just don't see us taking a LD. It's not going to happen.

And we've already got an offensive RD in Mailloux so... unless its Levshunov (RD too good to pass up and probably won't reach us) I don't see us taking D.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Maybe there isn't consensus on Michkov but it's interesting to see that some people have a negative view on him. It doesn't definitively make him a problem but you can file it under 'red flag' to monitor in the future.

Yeah it's not the end of the world. He would have been my pick, but there are also about 5 players I'd have taken before Reinbacher who were available.

I do hope we stick with Demidov though, I get potentially playing another year in the MHL isn't ideal but I think out development team can overcome that. He's a brilliant player with quick reflexes and almost always makes the right decision in limited time/space so I'm not worried about him translating.

 

[Locks]

You cite the same piece twice — and ignore other people who said he’s a perfectly fine person and find the criticism of his character uncalled for. Goes to show your bias.

I never said he’s a perfect character, but I do think nonsense said about him pre-draft was no more than hysterical smears.

We’ll know as he enters the NHL. It’s not worth bickering about today.

(And I wouldn’t give a rat’s behind what Lapointe the roid head has to say about anybody’s )

"You cite the same piece twice". I have no clue what you are alluding to. But even if I did cite it twice, how would it make my point any less valid? No, I don't ignore what other people who have actual info on Michkov's personality say, I just have not seen those positive reports.

Lapointe's statement clearly reflects the issue the organization had with Michkov and it has little to do with Lapointe himself, he was just the messenger there. And he was not alone in expressing a negative sentiment towards Michkov. For example, Kent said before the draft that "nothing prevents Michkov from re-signing in the KHL". That applies to any Russian prospect, Demidov included, but they are reportedly very interested in drafting him and I hope they do.