GDT: 2024 NHL Draft Thread | No Picks, No Problems

[Szechwan]

Are pronmans lists considered mocks/predictions, or his take on player quality?

 

[VanJack]

No picks until the 90's in round three.....maybe they can uncover another Hunter Brzustewicz....had a monster year in the OHL and was trade bait to acquire Lindholm.

Actually the Canucks have mined some decent talent in rounds 3-7. D-Petey, Kudryavtsov, and Mueller have all made their way to Abbotsford and Mynio is sure to follow after another year in the Dub.

Makes it tough on the pro scouts though. Watching all the top talent go to other NHL teams on draft day, and trying to find nuggets after so much talent is picked over.

 

[bobbyb2009]

What would the potato do?

 

[MS]

Pronman is such a weird reactionist with his rankings though. I really don't respect it. He used to be the biggest booster of tiny "big points" players. And he's sort of pulled a complete 180. Which i understand. I think @MS would agree...things have shifted significantly. But Pronman was always so much more into little waterbug nobodies than anybody. It's hard to take seriously when it almost feels like it pains him to rank bigger guys higher to reflect "who is drafted higher". But he's realized that. He just...still doesn't seem to really like them. He's contouring his rankings to "what teams prefer" rather than what he prefers.

Yeah, I've said this a few times.

I think Pronman is a 'trier' who really, really wants to be a scout and can pile together buzzwords to convince most people he knows what he's talking about ... but I just don't think he can evaluate talent.

Like you say, he spent years as the main guy touting tiny little danglers with high point totals ... and his rankings ended up being horrible as a result. And now he's pivoted 180 degrees the other direction - almost overnight - to being the biggest champion of big players and toughness.

I think he was smart enough to realize that his rankings were bad with hindsight and he's adjusted his process, but I think it's just a 'reaction' rather than actually understanding what he's seeing when he's watching a hockey game and being able to project. Something like putting Hunter Laing over Andrew Basha in his rankings for this year's draft is nuts.

 

[bossram]

Yeah, I've said this a few times.

I think Pronman is a 'trier' who really, really wants to be a scout and can pile together buzzwords to convince most people he knows what he's talking about ... but I just don't think he can evaluate talent.

Like you say, he spent years as the main guy touting tiny little danglers with high point totals ... and his rankings ended up being horrible as a result. And now he's pivoted 180 degrees the other direction - almost overnight - to being the biggest champion of big players and toughness.

I think he was smart enough to realize that his rankings were bad with hindsight and he's adjusted his process, but I think it's just a 'reaction' rather than actually understanding what he's seeing when he's watching a hockey game and being able to project. Something like putting Hunter Laing over Andrew Basha in his rankings for this year's draft is nuts.

I'd had this comment/criticism of Pronman quite a few times as well, since about 2021-22 when he suddenly switched from loving small skilled players to being a size queen.

He obviously made the switch because his old lists were bad, and he wanted to more closely reflect the preferences of NHL teams so that even if he is "wrong", he's wrong in the same direction as the NHL clubs and won't really look bad in comparison.

I think his lists (and mocks, in particular) are best for determining what NHL teams think. But I don't think Pronman is a good scout. His write-ups, and even podcast appearances, always describe players in the most vague, boilerplate descriptions. Contrast to someone like Scott Wheeler, who though I think his ultimate rankings are less accurate than Pronman (mostly because Pronman is aping team lists), Wheeler actually demonstrates way more detail in describing what a player is like and what traits they have. He's actually scouting/watching, though perhaps his conclusions may be more "off".

 

[MS]

I'd had this comment/criticism of Pronman quite a few times as well, since about 2021-22 when he suddenly switched from loving small skilled players to being a size queen.

He obviously made the switch because his old lists were bad, and he wanted to more closely reflect the preferences of NHL teams so that even if he is "wrong", he's wrong in the same direction as the NHL clubs and won't really look bad in comparison.

I think his lists (and mocks, in particular) are best for determining what NHL teams think. But I don't think Pronman is a good scout. His write-ups, and even podcast appearances, always describe players in the most vague, boilerplate descriptions. Contrast to someone like Scott Wheeler, who though I think his ultimate rankings are less accurate than Pronman (mostly because Pronman is aping team lists), Wheeler actually demonstrates way more detail in describing what a player is like and what traits they have. He's actually scouting/watching, though perhaps his conclusions may be more "off".

Yeah, agreed.

Like you say, the 'big change' from Pronman isn't 'I've learned to scout players better' as much as it appears to just be 'I've realized what I was doing wasn't working and now I'm doing the opposite'. It's like the George Costanza of scouting. And he's managed to make his rankings better by doing it, but I still don't think they show a lot of understanding.

Wheeler I don't think is great either and is stuck in the 10-years-ago 'draft small guys that produce' cycle but yeah he's probably a better actual scout than Pronman.

People hate Button and he makes some mistakes but to me his lists are the most like what you'd see from an actual scout ... because he was an actual NHL scouting director.

 

[bossram]

Yeah, agreed.

Like you say, the 'big change' from Pronman isn't 'I've learned to scout players better' as much as it appears to just be 'I've realized what I was doing wasn't working and now I'm doing the opposite'. It's like the George Costanza of scouting. And he's managed to make his rankings better by doing it, but I still don't think they show a lot of understanding.

Wheeler I don't think is great either and is stuck in the 10-years-ago 'draft small guys that produce' cycle but yeah he's probably a better actual scout than Pronman.

People hate Button and he makes some mistakes but to me his lists are the most like what you'd see from an actual scout ... because he was an actual NHL scouting director.

The bolded is a good comment too. People always rip on Button because he has some "out there" rankings, but if you saw the individual list of any scout, they'd all have "out there" rankings. Individual scouts will like some guys and not like other guys. They're not going to look like a consensus Bobby Mac list.

 

[MS]

The bolded is a good comment too. People always rip on Button because he has some "out there" rankings, but if you saw the individual list of any scout, they'd all have "out there" rankings. Individual scouts will like some guys and not like other guys. They're not going to look like a consensus Bobby Mac list.

It's not just scouts, it's entire scouting staffs.

Fans are obsessed with consensus rankings and lose their shit when someone puts out a ranking that goes against that. But even Button's rankings are probably more-consensus than any NHL team because he's not doing DNDs and the like. There are probably NHL teams that have a guy like Catton top-5 and there are probably teams that have him in the 25-35 range.

 

[biturbo19]

Yeah, agreed.

Like you say, the 'big change' from Pronman isn't 'I've learned to scout players better' as much as it appears to just be 'I've realized what I was doing wasn't working and now I'm doing the opposite'. It's like the George Costanza of scouting. And he's managed to make his rankings better by doing it, but I still don't think they show a lot of understanding.

Wheeler I don't think is great either and is stuck in the 10-years-ago 'draft small guys that produce' cycle but yeah he's probably a better actual scout than Pronman.

People hate Button and he makes some mistakes but to me his lists are the most like what you'd see from an actual scout ... because he was an actual NHL scouting director.

Well said. It describes the way he just sort of "flipped" in philosophy overnight. And even though i don't necessarily thing he flipped to the "wrong" philosophy per se...i think he did it wrong in the process. Because he's never been a good scout. He leaned on "high production" littles for a long time to pad his resume of "NHL players" as guys who play games, but he somehow still missed on most of the little NHL players who are actually stars. lol.

Then he flipped and now he just likes big players even if they're total lunkheads and useless at actual hockey. It's so bizarre and transparent. It's kind of funny watching him try to contort his "followers" to this though. But that's the most value he provides imo.


Button is an idiot. And he's wrong more than he's right. But i deeply respect the fact that he just ranks players the way an actual scout or GM would. He likes certain guys...Top-5. Unapologetically throwing Tiggy in at 3 because he loves his dad. Others are just nowhere to be seem, buried in the second round range like he had Virtanen.


I got suckered as heck by Virtanen's upside. He saw through it and i feel like it's appropriate to give credit where it's due. He stood on his convictions rather than just riding the consensus. He's also had some outlandish takes to the other direction of guys he hated who turned into stars. But that's what happens in real scouting.


I'm so curious about his love for Tij Iginla in this draft though. To me, he looks a lot like a smaller, slower, less physical Jake Virtanen with a worse shot. He's got all those same tunnel vision problems. But i wonder if part of it isn't just that the biggest reason Virtanen "busted" was that he didn't put in the work. And i'm assuming Button actually has information that suggests Tiggy will do that work that is necessary to become a real pro?

The bolded is a good comment too. People always rip on Button because he has some "out there" rankings, but if you saw the individual list of any scout, they'd all have "out there" rankings. Individual scouts will like some guys and not like other guys. They're not going to look like a consensus Bobby Mac list.

Yeah. I love it. I rarely agree with with it. But his list is such a breath of fresh air when even the other purported "scouting lists" end up so close to consensus it's clear they don't want to step outside those bounds.

 

[Vector]

 

[StreetHawk]

Or worse player development…..

 

[Vector]

Just cleaned up this thread. Anyone that diverges from the topic will be banned from it. If you're banned from this thread, you aren't allowed to post on this board about the draft tomorrow. Throwing the hammer down.

 

[God]

im reading the late round picks disappearing article and one of the nashville's scouts is named rick knickle?

 

[Bitz and Bites]

im reading the late round picks disappearing article and one of the nashville's scouts is named rick knickle?

Apparently he’s the cousin of former NASCAR driver Dick Trickle

 

[MS]

im reading the late round picks disappearing article and one of the nashville's scouts is named rick knickle?

When I was a kid it was briefly a huge deal when Knickle made his NHL debut in the 1990s after having been in the minors since the 1970s.

 

[Vector]

I didn't know Cam Robinson was in this good shape. He really doesn't fit in with the rest of the draft guys looking like this.

 

[credulous]

i dunno when the draft starts or who picks when and i'm gonna go hiking instead of watching it but i want to be the first to say:

i can't believe all these teams passed on buium. he's gonna be the best defender in the draft class, 100% guaranteed

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

This draft is up there with the 2020 NHL draft for my utter lack of excitement.

 

[StreetHawk]

This draft is up there with the 2020 NHL draft for my utter lack of excitement.

Yep.
But, reality of the situation. Surprised at the number of pick swaps.

Chi/NYI for a couple of spots the cost a late 2nd.
Buf/SJ for 3 spots 14-11 for a mid 2nd
Mon/LA 5 spots from 26 to 21 for a lae 2nd and late pick.

This is supposed to be a draft that will vary as we hit the teens. So, little surprised to see these early moves.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Here is my top 15 rankings:

1) Macklin Celebrini
2) Zeev Buium
3) Zayne Parekh
4) Ivan Demidov
5) Artyom Levshunov
6) Sam Dickenson
7) Tij Iginla
8) Berkley Catton
9) Carter Yakemchuk
10) Michael Brandsegg-Nygard
11) Cayden Lindstrom
12) Alfons Freij
13) EJ Emery
14) Igor Chernyshov
15) Maxim Masse


I'm really not that excited about the quality of this draft. But at the top end I love the defensemen. The forward group feels lacking to me to the point I'm willing to reach on guys like Freij and Emery relative to where others have them ranked.

 

[StreetHawk]

Here is my top 15 rankings:

1) Macklin Celebrini
2) Zeev Buium
3) Zayne Parekh
4) Ivan Demidov
5) Artyom Levshunov
6) Sam Dickenson
7) Tij Iginla
8) Berkley Catton
9) Carter Yakemchuk
10) Michael Brandsegg-Nygard
11) Cayden Lindstrom
12) Alfons Freij
13) EJ Emery
14) Igor Chernyshov
15) Maxim Masse


I'm really not that excited about the quality of this draft. But at the top end I love the defensemen. The forward group feels lacking to me to the point I'm willing to reach on guys like Freij and Emery relative to where others have them ranked.

How does the 2025 draft top 5 currently look? Heavy at F or D? Cause, we know Sj is taking Celebrini. Of the other clubs in the top 5, I see Chi back in the top 5. Ana probably in the 5-8 range next season as they should look to improve and give a better situation for their prospects to develop, CBS, too much chaos to get out of the bottom 5, Montreal, should not be in the bottom 5 next season, Utah, hard to say what their plans are.

If next draft is heavy at F at the top, Chi/CBS probably better off taking Dmen if it's kind of a close tie breaker between prospects.

 

[y2kcanucks]

How does the 2025 draft top 5 currently look? Heavy at F or D? Cause, we know Sj is taking Celebrini. Of the other clubs in the top 5, I see Chi back in the top 5. Ana probably in the 5-8 range next season as they should look to improve and give a better situation for their prospects to develop, CBS, too much chaos to get out of the bottom 5, Montreal, should not be in the bottom 5 next season, Utah, hard to say what their plans are.

If next draft is heavy at F at the top, Chi/CBS probably better off taking Dmen if it's kind of a close tie breaker between prospects.

I honestly don't know anything about the 2025 draft, other than forward James Hagens is the likely 1st overall pick.

 

[StreetHawk]

I honestly don't know anything about the 2025 draft, other than forward James Hagens is the likely 1st overall pick.

ok. cause seems like #2 could be any of like 4 players. Typically it's like maybe between 2 guys. Like in 2013, you could have argued Jones or Barkov. Last year Fantilli or Carlsson.

Have not looked too deep into the draft, but based solely on position and ranking, probably look at the Mich St. RD kid at 2. But, that's with like no info on the other kids.

 

[VanJack]

I guess if you're a Canucks fan, all you can hope for that some of the so-called draft 'experts' and 'pundits' are right--and that this a weak draft after the picks are exhausted at the top of the first round.

It'll be well into Day Two before the Canucks pick anyone. I suppose it'll be interesting to see who the Flames pick at #28, which came over in the Lindholm deal.

 

[wonton15]

Chuck Fletcher on the panel is a choice