GDT: 2024 Draft Discussion

Rzombo4 prez

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This is the year to move up and get that high skill guy everyone here covets, even if you have to overpay. I'd give up a second to move up a few spots and get Catton or Sennecke, maybe even Eiserman. Stevie has the pipeline depth to take that gamble.
I think you could move up two or three spots, but I don't see us moving up into the top 10 if that is what you are getting at. I also don't think Catton or Sennecke are super high skill guys by NHL standards. I think you are looking more at second line wings there.

If I had to bet, I think we are more likely to trade back to dump a contract.

In 2014 we had a massively stronger top 6, but aging centers. And we had picked wingers with our top selection three years running. Skill or safe isn't a decision made in a vacuum.

We have drafted and/or signed Kasper, Copp, Danielson, and Compher the last two summers. Our middle 6 is quite secure. Find some goals plz.
Copp and Compher are likely to be out of the organization by the time our 2024 first round pick establishes himself as an NHLer.
 
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odin1981

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Honestly, I don't think we need more useful players. We need high end skill. I don't care about the floor of whoever we take at 15. If they aren't going to be on our second line at the very least, they can play for Grand Rapids. I have no qualms about missing out on a high floor. I want to take whoever is most likely to fill in the huge hole we have in the lineup for a special player, even if they're not all that likely to reach that ceiling. When you go hunting for Panarins, you end up with a lot of Zadinas. I'm still happy to hunt for Panarins.

Be realistic, you ain't finding a high skill player at 15 without series flaws to their game. Look we didn't pick top 3 to acquire a high skill player it's perfectly fine. But what MBN has over Eisermon is this, if for some reason the offense doesn't translate he can actually translate. He isn't a bad skater like Eiserman, and he is very good at forechecking.

With MBN you got a foorechecking, big body power forward who will wear down the opposing team over a playoff series at worst and maybe with his hands he can develop a Holmstrom like deflection specialist at worst.

With Eiserman if he doesn't develop to at least average skating you are looking at a Zadina clone that won't work at the NHL level. He doesn't have a 2 way game to speak of, and is only plus skills is creating offense. But in the NHL with a player all over him shadowing him he can't break away, can't muscle through them, and can't often create offense so you have a passenger.
 
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norrisnick

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Be realistic, you ain't finding a high skill player at 15 without series flaws to their game. Look we didn't pick top 3 to acquire a high skill player it's perfectly fine. But what MBN has over Eisermon is this, if for some reason the offense doesn't translate he can actually translate. He isn't a bad skater like Eiserman, and he is very good at forechecking.

With MBN you got a foorechecking, big body power forward who will wear down the opposing team over a playoff series at worst and maybe with his hands he can develop a Holmstrom like deflection specialist at worst.

With Eiserman if he doesn't develop to at least average skating you are looking at a Zadina clone that won't work at the NHL level. He doesn't have a 2 way game to speak of, and is only plus skills is creating offense. But in the NHL with a player all over him shadowing him he can't break away, can't muscle through them, and can't often create offense so you have a passenger.
And that's perfectly understood and fine. I just don't agree that that is the strategy you should take this many drafts in a row. I won't be hurt if we don't get a Christian Fischer consolation prize and get a Zadina instead.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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I think you could move up two or three spots, but I don't see us moving up into the top 10 if that is what you are getting at. I also don't think Catton or Sennecke are super high skill guys by NHL standards. I think you are looking more at second line wings there.

If I had to bet, I think we are more likely to trade back to dump a contract.


Copp and Compher are likely to be out of the organization by the time our 2024 first round pick establishes himself as an NHLer.
If Catton isn’t skilled, what is your idea of skilled?
 

odin1981

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And that's perfectly understood and fine. I just don't agree that that is the strategy you should take this many drafts in a row. I won't be hurt if we don't get a Christian Fischer consolation prize and get a Zadina instead.

We should be fine for center depth Ala Boston with a 1a 1b when Larkin age regress outta the 1c position. Kasper is on pace to be a fine 2c in his prime, and Danielson is looking at worst to be a diet Bergeron style center.

One of the major things we lack is a big body 2 way power forward. And that is MBN. The 24 draft isn't center heavy. Next year supposedly is more offense heavy. So aim for a top 6 center next year when it's deeper. When the talent pool of that position is heavier.
 

HisNoodliness

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Be realistic, you ain't finding a high skill player at 15 without series flaws to their game. Look we didn't pick top 3 to acquire a high skill player it's perfectly fine. But what MBN has over Eisermon is this, if for some reason the offense doesn't translate he can actually translate. He isn't a bad skater like Eiserman, and he is very good at forechecking.

With MBN you got a foorechecking, big body power forward who will wear down the opposing team over a playoff series at worst and maybe with his hands he can develop a Holmstrom like deflection specialist at worst.

With Eiserman if he doesn't develop to at least average skating you are looking at a Zadina clone that won't work at the NHL level. He doesn't have a 2 way game to speak of, and is only plus skills is creating offense. But in the NHL with a player all over him shadowing him he can't break away, can't muscle through them, and can't often create offense so you have a passenger.
Exactly, we have to be realistic and accept that if we want to get a star player at 15, we're going to need to take a big risk. Otherwise, we'll never find that player. My personal opinion based upon the current Red Wings, who we have in the system and such is that I do not care about a player's floor anymore.

Like let's run a little exercise. I think we can nitpick percentages and value- but let's just treat it as a general demonstration rather than a rigorous mathematical exercise. Let's say that we call a 4th liner a value 1 player, a 3rd liner: value 2, a 2nd liner: value 3 a 1st liner: value 4 and a star: value 5.

I think MBN's expected value calculation is something like
10%*0 +
20%*1 +
30%*2 +
30%*3 +
10%*4 +
0*5
For a total value of 2.1

I may break down Eiserman this way
70%*0 +
0%*1 +
0%*2 +
10%*3 +
10%*4 +
10%*5
For a total value of 1.2

That's a lower expected value for Eiserman, I totally agree that you're probably getting less value. If we were starting a new franchise, I'd take MBN and approach it with an expected value calculation along these lines. However, the reality is that to me, anything less than a second line forward, at this point, has effectively 0 value. We have a ton of those players, and if we need one more, we can get them as a UFA. We desperately need someone that actually makes a difference. So my situational modified scaling would be something like: A 3rd liner or below has 0 value, a second line forward has a value of 1, a first liner a value of 5 and a star a value of 10.

With that modified scaling MBN ends up with an expected value of .8 and Eiserman has one of 1.9. That's why, to me, I think it's actually a really easy choice.
 
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OgeeOgelthorpe

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Fair however..

you have to make the playoffs in order to shut down in the playoffs, and based on Eiserman's scoring touch, I think he's a player that helps us make it

People love to rip on Mitchy Marner, and most of the criticism in the playoffs is warranted, but the guy is a 100 point player that helps his team get there every year. Gotta attend the dance to have a shot with the girl.

The Wings had a top 10 offense with nobody in the top 30 of NHL scoring. Their scoring didn’t keep them out of the playoffs. It was bad goaltending and bad team defense that did.
 

Dotter

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If Eiserman is available at 15 then I will automatically assume it's the same reason Zadina was available at 6.

Should have just kept Zadina and called him our Eiserman.
 
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lilidk

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The Wings had a top 10 offense with nobody in the top 30 of NHL scoring. Their scoring didn’t keep them out of the playoffs. It was bad goaltending and bad team defense that did.
And also too many forwards that not good defensively
 

norrisnick

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The Wings had a top 10 offense with nobody in the top 30 of NHL scoring. Their scoring didn’t keep them out of the playoffs. It was bad goaltending and bad team defense that did.
With Ed, Cossa, Kasper, Danielson, AlJo, Augustine, etc... not integrated into the roster yet. I don't worry about our players' defensive ability. Our coaches' systems maybe... But the kids coming up should be able to handle it.

Now point at a single 30 goal winger in our prospect pool.
 
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OldnotDeadWings

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It's actually pretty funny that a fan can create a mathematical formula our of thin air and yet prove to themselves that Eiserman's expected NHL value is more than double that of MBN.

There is obvioussly no proven formula for prospect projection and it's not all that complicated when it comes to the Draft. Teams are usually going to use their higher picks to select the guy they think has the best chance to be a good NHL player, with emphasis on positions of value and positions of perceived need. Specific skill attributes are secondary and addressed with later picks where odds are very much against finding an NHL player at all. That's how you end up with very different but specific attribute guys like Buchelnikov and Cleveland in the second round. Specific needs are better acquired via other means, the odds of filling them much better from someone with a track record of having done what you need rather than a guy who might in three or four years, by which time the team may find the need it had no longer exists anyway.

There also seem to be many variations of "we need a winger who can make a difference", as if the team doesn't already have one in Raymond. He's going to get close to Kyle Connor money because at the same age he's just as good if not better. The top winger spot is not a black hole, the projected quality and depth behind him in 3-4 years is what needs to be upgraded.
 
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Gniwder

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Filip Forsberg also scored 8 goals in the Allsvenskan in his draft year. Production is not an issue with MBN. Just not as sure what to make of his overall skill set as others.

He was so unimpressive that the Caps traded him for freakin' eRat the next season. He's a complete anomaly, since he plays better at the NHL level than all levels below. One of the reasons why he got traded was because he never skated hard, and there were doubts he can skate at the NHL level and keep up. I think he was totally sandbagging, lol. I suppose he could have been nursing an injury.
 

norrisnick

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Apr 14, 2005
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It's actually pretty funny that a fan can create a mathematical formula our of thin air and yet prove to themselves that Eiserman's expected NHL value is more than double that of MBN.

There is obvioussly no proven formula for prospect projection and it's not all that complicated when it comes to the Draft. Teams are usually going to use their higher picks to select the guy they think has the best chance to be a good NHL player, with emphasis on positions of value and positions of perceived need. Specific skill attributes are secondary and addressed with later picks where odds are very much against finding an NHL player at all. That's how you end up with very different but specific attribute guys like Buchelnikov and Cleveland in the second round. Specific needs are better acquired via other means, the odds of filling them much better from someone with a track record of having done what you need rather than a guy who might in three or four years, by which time the team may find the need it had no longer exists anyway.

There also seem to be many variations of "we need a winger who can make a difference", as if the team doesn't already have one in Raymond. He's going to get close to Kyle Connor money because at the same age he's just as good if not better. The top winger spot is not a black hole, the projected quality and depth behind him in 3-4 years is what needs to be upgraded.
Good teams have 2nd lines that do more than just hope to stay afloat.
 

Frk It

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The Wings had a top 10 offense with nobody in the top 30 of NHL scoring. Their scoring didn’t keep them out of the playoffs. It was bad goaltending and bad team defense that did.
Is that goalscoring sustainable? I mean we saw it start to taper off over the last few months of the season.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Feb 29, 2020
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With Ed, Cossa, Kasper, Danielson, AlJo, Augustine, etc... not integrated into the roster yet. I don't worry about our players' defensive ability. Our coaches' systems maybe... But the kids coming up should be able to handle it.

Now point at a single 30 goal winger in our prospect pool.

Nobody knows what these kids will really do until they make it. Mazur could be the next Blake Coleman. Kasper the next Kesler. Danielson probably has the highest chance of being a 30 goal guy in our pool. Soderblom has the hands of a 30 goal guy but just needs to figure out how to play without the puck.
 

Gniwder

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Time to double down on causation/correlation.

Name one Cup winner without a stinker contract somewhere on there?

I don't remember the Avs or Lightning having a complete stinker contract. Blues (Steen) and Caps (Orpik) bad contracts were guys who were at the end of their career with one extra year left on their contracts. Orpik was overpaid for his 3rd pair role, but he was quite useful in the playoffs since he had to protect Djoos the whole time.


Is that goalscoring sustainable? I mean we saw it start to taper off over the last few months of the season.
Nope. Ghost, Perron, Kane, and Sprong, Fabbri will be gone. Drafting has to account for players that are expected to leave in 3 years, by then every contract except DBoss, Raz, Compher, and the current RFAs will expire.

BPA is the best approach, but the team needs a player that can score. The team already has enough "tough to play against" prospects.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Is that goalscoring sustainable? I mean we saw it start to taper off over the last few months of the season.

It can be.

DBC was scoring at a 40ish goal pace with Larkin early, and a 15 goal pace without. Don’t bump him to PP2 for Perron and keep him stapled to Larkin.

Replace Fabbri with a 15 goal guy that knows how to play defense so we aren’t fishing the puck out of our net as much.

Replace Veleno with Danielson or Kasper. Whoever is more ready. Or pay to dump Copp back in Winterpeg, make Veleno 4C with Rasmussen as 4w in a shutdown role.

Sign or trade for a legit top 6 guy to run the second line. Buchnevich, Ehlers, Kane, Stamkos, Guentzel, etc.

Either sign or trade for an upgrade on 2RD and dump 2-3 of the bad D.

And get a f***ing goalie, or this team is picking top 10 again.
 

Axel Sandy Pelikan

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It's actually pretty funny that a fan can create a mathematical formula our of thin air and yet prove to themselves that Eiserman's expected NHL value is more than double that of MBN.

There is obvioussly no proven formula for prospect projection and it's not all that complicated when it comes to the Draft. Teams are usually going to use their higher picks to select the guy they think has the best chance to be a good NHL player, with emphasis on positions of value and positions of perceived need. Specific skill attributes are secondary and addressed with later picks where odds are very much against finding an NHL player at all. That's how you end up with very different but specific attribute guys like Buchelnikov and Cleveland in the second round. Specific needs are better acquired via other means, the odds of filling them much better from someone with a track record of having done what you need rather than a guy who might in three or four years, by which time the team may find the need it had no longer exists anyway.

There also seem to be many variations of "we need a winger who can make a difference", as if the team doesn't already have one in Raymond. He's going to get close to Kyle Connor money because at the same age he's just as good if not better. The top winger spot is not a black hole, the projected quality and depth behind him in 3-4 years is what needs to be upgraded.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh?

He's saying that MBN (who I don't know who that is) is a higher floor, lower ceiling guy. He's more likely to stick on an NHL roster which is where he gets that hypothetical 2.1... but he's less likely to be a star because his numbers are weighted towards the lower end of his scale. Whereas Eiserman is apparently going to be a star or first liner or he's going to be absolutely nothing. So... while he's got a 70% chance of being nothing, he's got a bigger chance to be an overall star if he hits. That's why he's got a 1.2

Essentially, MBN would be likely to make an NHL roster and be a mid 6 guy with a slight possibility for more. Eiserman is either gonna hit like gangbusters or he's gonna be worth it in spades.

Also... my dude, you need more than one stud winger. You need more than one really great center. The only position you truly only need one great player at is goaltender and that's simply because only one can play at a time and a truly great tendy can play 60 games a year and a whole playoff run.
 

OldnotDeadWings

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Sep 18, 2013
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Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh?

He's saying that MBN (who I don't know who that is) is a higher floor, lower ceiling guy. He's more likely to stick on an NHL roster which is where he gets that hypothetical 2.1... but he's less likely to be a star because his numbers are weighted towards the lower end of his scale. Whereas Eiserman is apparently going to be a star or first liner or he's going to be absolutely nothing. So... while he's got a 70% chance of being nothing, he's got a bigger chance to be an overall star if he hits. That's why he's got a 1.2

Essentially, MBN would be likely to make an NHL roster and be a mid 6 guy with a slight possibility for more. Eiserman is either gonna hit like gangbusters or he's gonna be worth it in spades.

Also... my dude, you need more than one stud winger. You need more than one really great center. The only position you truly only need one great player at is goaltender and that's simply because only one can play at a time and a truly great tendy can play 60 games a year and a whole playoff run.

My comprehension level is fine, thank you very much. I understand the argument the poster and you make, it's he application of numbers picked out of thin air that makes it completely nonsensical as a validation. Capiche?

We have one stud winger. I said we need quality and depth. That means a second or maybe even a third good or even very good winger. Comprende?
 

Axel Sandy Pelikan

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My comprehension level is fine, thank you very much. I understand the argument the poster and you make, it's he application of numbers picked out of thin air that makes it completely nonsensical as a validation. Capiche?

We have one stud winger. I said we need quality and depth. That means a second or maybe even a third good or even very good winger. Comprende?

I don't think you do. Because you said "It makes Eiserman look twice as good" when it literally does the exact opposite. It's saying that Eiserman is boom or bust and MBN (?) is more like a Riley Sheahan type pick (where you're getting a mid-6 NHLer without guarantees of much more in the 15-22 range).

The only validation was to say that if you're taking Eiserman, you gotta be on-board with the fact that he carries a higher bust potential because his negatives align more closely with players who have busted (weaker skating and hockey IQ, better shot). Whereas Michael Brandsegg-Nygard (that's a sick f***in name) is the type of player Detroit has been drafting... a dirtbag who is tough to play against 200ft at a time.

He was sharing that more as a visual representation of what most of us are saying... If Cole Eiserman hits, he's going to be an absolute stud and he'll be a better player than Brandsegg-Nygard. But... in the equally likely scenario that he doesn't translate to the NHL because he lacks a rounded game... he's going to be completely worthless... whereas MBN is going to be a pest to play against as long as he does what he's always done.
 
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OldnotDeadWings

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I don't think you do. Because you said "It makes Eiserman look twice as good" when it literally does the exact opposite. It's saying that Eiserman is boom or bust and MBN (?) is more like a Riley Sheahan type pick (where you're getting a mid-6 NHLer without guarantees of much more in the 15-22 range).

The only validation was to say that if you're taking Eiserman, you gotta be on-board with the fact that he carries a higher bust potential because his negatives align more closely with players who have busted (weaker skating and hockey IQ, better shot). Whereas Michael Brandsegg-Nygard (that's a sick f***in name) is the type of player Detroit has been drafting... a dirtbag who is tough to play against 200ft at a time.

He was sharing that more as a visual representation of what most of us are saying... If Cole Eiserman hits, he's going to be an absolute stud and he'll be a better player than Brandsegg-Nygard. But... in the equally likely scenario that he doesn't translate to the NHL because he lacks a rounded game... he's going to be completely worthless... whereas MBN is going to be a pest to play against as long as he does what he's always done.

This is what the original poster said: "MBN ends up with an expected value of .8 and Eiserman has one of 1.9." In what mathematical world is that not coming to a conclusion that Eiserman's expected value is more than double that of MBN? The numbers created to produce that conclusion are fabricated by imagination, projection, whatever. It doesn't matter.because none of the elements of that formula have any basis in reality. Eiserman may or may not have more potential as a goal-scorer than MBN. Even if he does, which is likely, the calculation determining the likelihood of that greater potential coming to fruition is not known to the human race.
 
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SantosHalper

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Craig Button gets it
“When you watch Michael play, he’s invested everywhere,” said Button. “He’s involved everywhere. He’s an excellent skater, tenacious, smart.


“My projection of Michael is that he’s a player that’s going to be important to teams winning. You could play at him at so many different spots on your team and he’s going to help you be successful.”
 

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