Pre-Game Talk: 2024 Blues Training Camp Thread

[blueper]

Sounds great in theory, but could blow up in a coaches face later in the season.

He is new and cool and there was a lot of drama around his acquisition. I get wanting to give the guy a ton of minutes to get his sea legs underneath him, but there is probably some sports psychology at play here.

The way I see it, there are two ways to go about this...

Option 1: Sink or Swim
Say Holloway gets throw into the deep end and the put him in the top six playing tough minutes throughout the game. He just uprooted his life and moved from a system he's been in for the last four years. Coaches, teammates, trainers, facilities, and expectations are all novel and nuanced.

He's basically already a household name...one that is known for, by many people, as being overpaid for where he is at in his development as a 23 year old 2020 first round draft pick. If he doesn't come out the gates to open the season like he's being shot out of a cannon, it could mess with his confidence dramatically if/when Bannister has to sit him out or drop him down in the lineup.

Now, look at from the other side.

Option 2: Compound Interest Investment
We got him locked down for two years. We literally cannot trade him or send him down to the minors for the first year. He's an investment. Start him out slow. Get him used to playing BLUES hockey. It's like Oiler hockey, but instead of "give the puck to that one guy", it emphasizes the importance of defensive reliability in all three zones. (lolol hold the snide comments. I'm talking about what we're historically known for. Not what we're recently known for).

Once he's mastering the basics and is executing flawlessly on the fundamentals, that's your cornerstone in the foundation. Then we slowly ramp up the intensity, give him assignments that put him in a place to succeed, and build his confidence over time. Any hiccups he might have along the way are viewed as learning opportunities and aren't highlighted with a spotlight. If he's already playing sheltered minutes on the 3rd and 4th line, it's okay if there are speedbumps for a while. It's better to give him sheltered minutes for a longer period of time than it would be to move him up and down the line up every time he messes up.

Phase I: Show us you can handle the fourth line defensive assignments
Phase II: Move to the third line, stay defensive and see if you can contribute offensively here
Phase III: Training wheels are off. Here's top 6 mins. Don't mess up, bc we're counting on you

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Edit: I probably could have saved the 30 minutes it took for me to write this and just added a link to this article that was published a couple days ago where Army basically says the same thing. It's a marathon, not a sprint. We're in it for the long haul.

Some good points for sure. However, I still think DH should be given a better opportunity right out of the gate preferably on the 3rd line. He just played 25 playoff games which I think shows that Edmonton thought he could handle pressure. He's a year and half older than Bolduc. Bolduc scored 8 goals in 50 AHL games last year compared to DH's 17 in his last 30 in the AHL. Bolduc is being prepped to play top 6, but DH needs to play 4th line? I think Bolduc is rightfully going to get a look in the top 6, but I think DH should get a top 9 spot at the least.
I don't think either one is going to be shaken up long term if they don't have success right away.

 

[Xerloris]

Playing Devil's advocate a bit here, you have several flawed assumptions underpinning your argument.

You discount his age and experience. Start him on the 4th line? He isn't starting. He has 89 NHL games, many playing with Draisaitl. He's not a teenager. He's 23 years old. Thomas who had a lesser draft pedigree was a ppg at 22. He's at an age he should absolutely be stepping into a bigger role not busted down to start over and prove himself.

You think the pressure will relent by starting him slow? All the pressures you laid out in scenario 1 are still there if you start him on the 4th line. Fans won't care we are starting him slow.

He's still a household name we overpaid for his production so far, only now he's overpaid for his role as well. And he is not put in a position to suceed playing with players who don't match his skill set. So he has no chance to justify the hype.

His own desire to show what he can do won't lessen. How do you think he will feel when coaches tell him he needs to prove he's defensively responsible when Schenn and Neighbours are out there being atrocious on D and getting better minutes and linemates but he's told he has to prove he has mastered executing defensive fundamentals flawlessly before he can see the 3rd line?

Starting him as 3C and moving him up to 2nd wing at times isn't throwing him in the deep end. It's giving him room to grow into a role. Have you seen goldfish who live in a pond as opposed to a tiny fish bowl? They are bigger. You got to give players room to grow and put them in a position to suceed at some point. He's 23 with 89 NHL games under his belt. This is that point

Just to add about the pressure, he played in the cup finals in a game 7. He can handle a regular season game I'm sure.

Also, the way the Blues have typically done things is let the player earn their spot. I don't foresee us gifting him anything.

 

[blueper]

I agree with this, I don't think starting him off on the third line is throwing him in the deep end at all. If they dont envision him as a center by all means he can play on the wing instead but the third line is where he should be playing IMO. As you mentioned he is already 23 and already has experience in the league including a recent trip to the SCF where he didn't look out of place at all, third line minutes on a team that isn't expected to compete isn't really asking a whole lot. We have 4th line guys who should be lined up there, I am more concerned that the team looks to be thinking of Faksa as 3C when he should clearly be the 4C.

Agreed. The 4th line should be Joseph - Faksa - Toropchenko

 

[Celtic Note]

I really hope we thin the herd hard after the game tonight. We have a lot of new players and a new coach. It would be nice to start getting guys who will likely be on the roster (or likely will during the year) acclimated to each other and the coaching game plan.

 

[joe galiba]

Some good points for sure. However, I still think DH should be given a better opportunity right out of the gate preferably on the 3rd line. He just played 25 playoff games which I think shows that Edmonton thought he could handle pressure. He's a year and half older than Bolduc. Bolduc scored 8 goals in 50 AHL games last year compared to DH's 17 in his last 30 in the AHL. Bolduc is being prepped to play top 6, but DH needs to play 4th line? I think Bolduc is rightfully going to get a look in the top 6, but I think DH should get a top 9 spot at the least.
I don't think either one is going to be shaken up long term if they don't have success right away.

at work we use DH to get around company email filters when describing someone as a d*ck head

 

[Blanick]

I don't know why so many people on social media and on the radio keep talking as if Faksa is locked as our 3C. If Faksa is in our top9 for substantial time this year, we are in trouble.

 

[Brian39]

I think that we might be putting a little bit too much emphasis (or our own assumptions about roster construction) into the difference between our 3rd and 4th lines this year. I could definitely see a scenario where we make 2 bottom 6 lines that see relatively equal ice time.

Skill on the 4th line is becoming more popular in the NHL. Our 2nd line had real struggles defending last year, so barring a major change in ice time allocation we need a bottom 6 line that is focused on defending against other teams top 9s. I could very much see a strategy where our "3rd line" gets 11-12 even strength minutes of defensive deployment while the "4th line" gets 10-11 minutes of sheltered offensive deployment.

I see a lot of usage scenarios where Faksa is the 3rd most used center at even strength and it isn't remotely a problem. Especially if it is part of a concerted effort to get Thomas more offensive opportunity by reducing the number of times his line is asked to go out for defensive draws.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839323462671945854

Holloway getting some shifts in at C

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Pens fan here stopping by to ask how POJ has been.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Pens fan here stopping by to ask how POJ has been.

Only seen him once so far. Looked fine at the beginning of the game, but we were playing him as the #1 that night with a bunch of prospects and AHLers and his play trailed off as the game went on. I put that more on us forcing him to play more minutes than he should and him getting tired combined with other defenseman taking bad penalties all night. He should be fine playing the bottom 4 role when we need him to.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Thank you. I watched him a lot in the AHL and had his ceiling as a #4 defensemen. In Pittsburgh he never really had an appropriate partner that balanced out his shortcomings.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Thank you. I watched him a lot in the AHL and had his ceiling as a #4 defensemen. In Pittsburgh he never really had an appropriate partner that balanced out his shortcomings.

He'll most likely be paired with Faulk or Kessel here, maybe Sutter if he can play on his offside. I'm excited to see if he can fight his way into a constant top 6 role.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839345728923295884

Group B

Looks much more like a NHL squad.

 

[stl76]

Why are people so against Faksa as a 3C?

I see a lot of usage scenarios where Faksa is the 3rd most used center at even strength and it isn't remotely a problem. Especially if it is part of a concerted effort to get Thomas more offensive opportunity by reducing the number of times his line is asked to go out for defensive draws.

Exactly.

Just look at Faksa’s o-zone start rate in Dallas and it’s pretty clear this is part of the plan.

 

[Majorityof1]

Why are people so against Faksa as a 3C?


Exactly.

Just look at Faksa’s o-zone start rate in Dallas and it’s pretty clear this is part of the plan.

If I had to guess why:

1) He has less offensive ability than others and we need more secondary scoring. So people think having him get more minutes would limit our team's offense.

2) He is older and hence less exciting. People are more excited to see Holloway, Texier and even Joseph who could grow their game. We know what Faksa brings.

3) Fans want to think of us as a contender. Faksa is the level of player a contender with out a stacked top 6 would have on the 4th line like Sunny or Steen. Having him need to play on the 3rd line, maybe we aren't as deep as we hoped.

For me it's #2. We aren't a contender. I don't care if we win a single game. I want to develop the youth and find players who fit long term and will be in the picture 3-5 years from now.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

He'll most likely be paired with Faulk or Kessel here, maybe Sutter if he can play on his offside. I'm excited to see if he can fight his way into a constant top 6 role.

I was actually quite peeved that they never tried POJ as RD in the AHL.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Peca, Harrington, and Bitten sent to AHL

 

[Reality Czech]

Thank you. I watched him a lot in the AHL and had his ceiling as a #4 defensemen. In Pittsburgh he never really had an appropriate partner that balanced out his shortcomings.

How's Hayes doing for you guys so far? Not a huge fan of him as a player but I'm a big fan of him as a person. Not the type of player who will hurt you much but also kind of there most of the time. Then every 5-10 games or so he'll do something which makes you think why can't you do this every game?

 

[Randy Butternubs]

How's Hayes doing for you guys so far? Not a huge fan of him as a player but I'm a big fan of him as a person. Not the type of player who will hurt you much but also kind of there most of the time. Then every 5-10 games or so he'll do something which makes you think why can't you do this every game?

He's been fine. No clue where he'll be in the line up. Latest lines showed him fourth line left wing I think.