Speculation: 2024/25 Trade Rumours, Speculation etc Thread

[Whileee]

At least you're not fanning the flames of this debate

...just the facts, Ma'am.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

What a massive amount of arguing three games into the season and here im too busy to really stoke the flames. Tough times.

If I've learned one thing in life, it is the importance of making time for shit disturbing.

 

[WolfHouse]

Wasn't there someone who brought up wins/losses with Toby in the line up vs Toby out of the line up and it was agreed upon that you can't look at things like that?

Since you used a 15 game sample size of him being injured, the Jets were 11-4 in the 15 games leading up to his injury. In other words, the team as a whole had a great 30 game stretch that spanned him both being in and being out of the lineup

Omfg we are bringing the Toby Enstrom debate back from the dead now too. Stop the insanity!!!

 

[Romang67]

The debate will never end but I would point out that the Jets' win-loss record was much better with Ehlers playing with Scheifele than when Connor played with him last season.

Last season the Jets had by far the best record in the NHL while Connor was out (13-2-2), while outscoring opponents by a remarkable 58 to 29 during that stretch. Points % without Connor was 0.824 versus 0.630 with Connor.

So they obviously were able to win with Ehlers on the top line with Scheifele, if that's how you prefer to measure success.

Can probably be at least in part explained by the Jets' propensity for outscoring teams with Scheifele on the ice and Connor off it.

Who knows.

 

[Whileee]

Wasn't there someone who brought up wins/losses with Toby in the line up vs Toby out of the line up and it was agreed upon that you can't look at things like that?

Since you used a 15 game sample size of him being injured, the Jets were 11-4 in the 15 games leading up to his injury. In other words, the team as a whole had a great 30 game stretch that spanned him both being in and being out of the lineup

Point is that they certainly haven't suffered without Ehlers playing Scheifele in terms of wins-losses, if that's the criterion.

I'm fine with the Jets trying the Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi line for a while to see if the Jets can win consistently enough with that configuration, but also hope that Arniel will adapt if their line struggles at the top of the line-up.

So far, so good.

 

[DRW204]

The debate will never end but I would point out that the Jets' win-loss record was much better with Ehlers playing with Scheifele than when Connor played with him last season.

Last season the Jets had by far the best record in the NHL while Connor was out (13-2-2), while outscoring opponents by a remarkable 58 to 29 during that stretch. Points % without Connor was 0.824 versus 0.630 with Connor.

So they obviously were able to win with Ehlers on the top line with Scheifele, if that's how you prefer to measure success.

Wins and losses, GF vs Against nahhh that's to fancy and advanced

 

[voyageur]

Omfg we are bring Toby Enstrom debate back from the dead now too. Stop the insanity!!!

Well there was not much of a debate when Ladd was the top LW, and Perreault became #2. Maybe we need to go back to simpler times, when the building was full and making the playoffs was a success.

 

[voyageur]

Can probably be at least in part explained by the Jets' propensity for outscoring teams with Scheifele on the ice and Connor off it.

Who knows.

Would you replace our current coaches who practice with these guys, and work with them every day with a spreadsheet?

 

[Romang67]

Would you replace our current coaches who practice with these guys, and work with them every day with a spreadsheet?

I'm sure the Jets have an analytics team.

I also don't really understand why this is such a contentious topic. If the Jets rolled out Comrie to play 65 games this season, and only put Hellebuyck on the ice when injury demands it, would it be controversial to point out that the lineup decisions the coaches make isn't supported by any tangential results?

 

[voyageur]

I'm sure the Jets have an analytics team.

I also don't really understand why this is such a contentious topic. If the Jets rolled out Comrie to play 65 games this season, and only put Hellebuyck on the ice when injury demands it, would it be controversial to point out that the lineup decisions the coaches make isn't supported by any tangential results?

Have you checked our record lately?

 

[Romang67]

Have you checked our record lately?

I'm not basing this on 3 games. I'm basing it on the results of the Scheifele/Connor duo since Wheeler started regressing in 2019.

Just like I wouldn't be pushing for Comrie to start over Hellebuyck even if we managed to win 3 games in a row with him in net.

But hey, maybe the 5 year experiment will pay off, and Connor-Scheifele-____ will be an above average 1st line in the 2024/25 season.

 

[Buffdog]

I'm not basing this on 3 games. I'm basing it on the results of the Scheifele/Connor duo since Wheeler started regressing in 2019.

Just like I wouldn't be pushing for Comrie to start over Hellebuyck even if we managed to win 3 games in a row with him in net.

But hey, maybe the 5 year experiment will pay off, and Connor-Scheifele-____ will be an above average 1st line in the 2024/25 season.

CS_ will never be an above average 1st line at 5v5, and I can't think of a single poster here that has said that it will be

I think the flaw in your logic (as well as all the other posters banging thr same drum as you are) is thinking that it has to be in order for this team to be successful

 

[Romang67]

CS_ will never be an above average 1st line at 5v5, and I can't think of a single poster here that has said that it will be

I think the flaw in your logic (as well as all the other posters banging thr same drum as you are) is thinking that it has to be in order for this team to be successful

I mean, the team can definitely be successful despite not optimizing its forward lines. We have Hellebuyck in net (until we start rolling out Comrie as the starter instead of Hellebuyck).

Why is that something we would try to do? Do we need the extra challenge?

 

[LowLefty]

Have you checked our record lately?

Our record doesn't matter - we're in the middle of a 4 day lay over and it's time to rehash those topics that have been discussed during all lay overs.
Just in case someone missed it the first hundred or so times - This stuff has been covered ad nauseam.
Fans need something to talk about - that's all this is.

 

[DRW204]

CS_ will never be an above average 1st line at 5v5, and I can't think of a single poster here that has said that it will be

I think the flaw in your logic (as well as all the other posters banging thr same drum as you are) is thinking that it has to be in order for this team to be successful

So which nhl team has purposefully went with a below average top line in their respective cup winning or highly successful PO season? IE: csw was V good in 17-18 no one is going to dispute the team for using that.

You post and talk as if it's inconceivable for others to think this may not be the right path, drop a few teams then that have done similarly.

 

[WolfHouse]

CS_ will never be an above average 1st line at 5v5, and I can't think of a single poster here that has said that it will be

I think the flaw in your logic (as well as all the other posters banging thr same drum as you are) is thinking that it has to be in order for this team to be successful

The challenge is that they have to be... if we want playoff success. Every other top line elevates their game... ours did too for our playoff run but scheif has changed his game since then to focus on staying healthy

I am a Barron fan but i legit could see a guy like him or kupari as the magic mix for scheif-kfc - just a straight forward net crash speedy play driver to open up space

Vilardi is 'close' but i also wonder if he wouldnt transform the lowry line into a scoring line...

Cant wait to see the board after the friday 'trap game'... line combos should be off the charts

 

[Buffdog]

So which nhl team has purposefully went with a below average top line in their respective cup winning or highly successful PO season? IE: csw was V good in 17-18 no one is going to dispute the team for using that.

You post and talk as if it's inconceivable for others to think this may not be the right path, drop a few teams then that have done similarly.

I mean, the team can definitely be successful despite not optimizing its forward lines. We have Hellebuyck in net (until we start rolling out Comrie as the starter instead of Hellebuyck).

Why is that something we would try to do? Do we need the extra challenge?

You guys need zoom out a bit

You're making it sound like the choice is play CSX on a line or play ESX on a line together

Obviously everyone and their dogs can look at the numbers and see that ESX gets better results 5v5... yet coaches continue to play Connor and Schief together. So that brings up the obvious question of "why?"

I personally believe that it's because Schief was given assurances during his re-negotiations that he'd have input into who his linemates are and that he likes playing with Connor and not with Ehlers

So had he not been given those assurances, he may have moved on, along with Helle

So there isn't a ESX choice. It's CSX or a lineup without Schief and Helle. That's the choice

TL/DR you guys are advocating for something that isn't even on the table as an option and you might as well just accept that. That said, I'm sure Schief is open to things getting switched up temporarily in the case of injuries (like when Connor went down last season) or a team slide (like when Bones reunited ESV towards the end of last season... which, by the way, went terribly)

 

[Buffdog]

So which nhl team has purposefully went with a below average top line in their respective cup winning or highly successful PO season? IE: csw was V good in 17-18 no one is going to dispute the team for using that.

You post and talk as if it's inconceivable for others to think this may not be the right path, drop a few teams then that have done similarly.

As for below average top lines on teams that have won, obviously there aren't any. But that said, even the best teams deploy a forward lineup that is suboptimal

For example, edmonton's best line by far would be McDrai - yet that isn't a permanent fixture. Pit separated sid and geno when they won cups, and Chicago had Kane and toews on seperate lines at 5v5

Every team in the league could stack their top line and make it better, yet they go for depth. Ehlers and Schief are our two best line drivers, it makes sense to have them each driving their own lines

As I've said before, the problem we have is a lack of super top end forwards - so I think the Jets have opted to maximize what they have through depth whereas what you're suggesting would hurt the depth of the forward group

 

[Adam da bomb]

As for below average top lines on teams that have won, obviously there aren't any. But that said, even the best teams deploy a forward lineup that is suboptimal

For example, edmonton's best line by far would be McDrai - yet that isn't a permanent fixture. Pit separated sid and geno when they won cups, and Chicago had Kane and toews on seperate lines at 5v5

Every team in the league could stack their top line and make it better, yet they go for depth. Ehlers and Schief are our two best line drivers, it makes sense to have them each driving their own lines

As I've said before, the problem we have is a lack of super top end forwards - so I think the Jets have opted to maximize what they have through depth whereas what you're suggesting would hurt the depth of the forward group

I would say these 3 games Connor has driven that line more than schief.

 

[DRW204]

As for below average top lines on teams that have won, obviously there aren't any. But that said, even the best teams deploy a forward lineup that is suboptimal

For example, edmonton's best line by far would be McDrai - yet that isn't a permanent fixture. Pit separated sid and geno when they won cups, and Chicago had Kane and toews on seperate lines at 5v5

Every team in the league could stack their top line and make it better, yet they go for depth. Ehlers and Schief are our two best line drivers, it makes sense to have them each driving their own lines

As I've said before, the problem we have is a lack of super top end forwards - so I think the Jets have opted to maximize what they have through depth whereas what you're suggesting would hurt the depth of the forward group

McDavid and Drai separated are both positive lines. That's the difference, which I know you know but are leaving out. Same with the Blackhawks, I looked at a random 3 year stretch (2013-2016) both heavily positive when separated. You can't say the same here.

I didn't look at the pit example. On mobile rn.

Anyway if the Jets top line was heavily positive like it was in 17-18 sure ok.... But not the case. And I think most would want a top line, which gets majority of the 5v5 mins, to be a positive line.

 

[Buffdog]

McDavid and Drai separated are both positive lines. That's the difference, which I know you know but are leaving out. Same with the Blackhawks, I looked at a random 3 year stretch (2013-2016) both heavily positive when separated. You can't say the same here.

I didn't look at the pit example. On mobile rn.

Anyway if the Jets top line was heavily positive like it was in 17-18 sure ok.... But not the case. And I think most would want a top line, which gets majority of the 5v5 mins, to be a positive line.

So, is the combination of ESV and CNP collectively better in the metrics you care about than CSV and ENP over the long term? I don't feel like there's proof of that

But I feel like the convo is finally moving in the right direction

 

[voyageur]

I'm not basing this on 3 games. I'm basing it on the results of the Scheifele/Connor duo since Wheeler started regressing in 2019.

Just like I wouldn't be pushing for Comrie to start over Hellebuyck even if we managed to win 3 games in a row with him in net.

But hey, maybe the 5 year experiment will pay off, and Connor-Scheifele-____ will be an above average 1st line in the 2024/25 season.

Really you are comparing the difference between Ehlers and Connor to Hellebuyck and Comrie and you want me to take you seriously.

Why 5 years go 6 years back fella...who was Scheifele's winger in his 14 goal playoff run. How many goals did Ehlers have in 2018 playoffs?

 

[DRW204]

So, is the combination of ESV and CNP collectively better in the metrics you care about than CSV and ENP over the long term? I don't feel like there's proof of that

But I feel like the convo is finally moving in the right direction

This has been discussed extensively as well.

Over the long term... Of course there's no surefire proof bc Ehlers hardly plays with scheifele and Connor hardly is apart from him.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Wasn't there someone who brought up wins/losses with Toby in the line up vs Toby out of the line up and it was agreed upon that you can't look at things like that?

Since you used a 15 game sample size of him being injured, the Jets were 11-4 in the 15 games leading up to his injury. In other words, the team as a whole had a great 30 game stretch that spanned him both being in and being out of the lineup

Correct. There are far more examples of the same sort of thing too, like Crosby being out of the lineup for one. It was a couple of years ago so the numbers might have changed a bit but Pens actually had a better W% without Sid, and it was quite a large number of games too.

But there are some players who are more 'key' to their teams success than others. Jets can miss a Connor (winger depth) and Pens can miss a Sid (centre depth) but how do the Jets fare without Scheifele or Helle?

That leads to the issue of letting Ehlers walk. The Jets have potential replacements so they won't go in the sewer. But they will still have missed an opportunity to get better than they would otherwise be. When we can't attract UFAs, or even sign players we draft, we can't afford to lose any substantial opportunities.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

This thread has turned kind of funny for a team that is 3-0