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2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

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deadhead said:
Forsling was picked up on waivers. If he's so "talented" why was he available?
Same with Verhaeghe, let go by TB, are they that bad at "talent" evaluation?
Or is it simply that once you get past a small group of elite players, player success is as much due to situation as raw talent?

Being a talented player and being a good player are not synonymous.

Sometimes a player has to mature physically and mentally, sometimes a player just has to find the right situation or the right linemates/D partner.

One reason to beware of trades and free agents is you don't have as much information about why that player succeeded (or struggled) to know if he'd be as good on your team.
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Name one good NHL player who is not talented? It seems as though you don't follow the NHL much. Why was Brayden Point available in the 3rd round of the draft? Why was Kucherov available in the 2nd round of the draft? And on and on. Daniel Briere was once waived. Was he not talented?

 
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FlyerNutter said:
Look at the Rantanen trade yesterday, and even if they had the pieces - would they have the gall, and outside of the box thinking to make such a deal?

Same for when Tkachuk was available - or Eichel.

Holmgren did a lot of dumb stuff at the end but he looks like a genius compared to who has come after him.
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They had a Konecny, they re-signed him. They had a Hathaway, they re-signed him. They had a Ristolainen, they re-signed him. They had a Laughton, they re-signed him.

Dance with who brought you to the Mediocre Ball.
 
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deadhead said:
Tampa could have afforded to keep Verhaeghe, he signed a 2yr/$1M AVV RFA deal with Florida.
They just didn't project him as a top six player.
They kept Paquette over him, then traded Paquette the next December.
They also went with Mathieu Joseph and Colton over him the next season.

Chicago were playing Murphy (25), Jokihariu (19) and Dhalstrom (24) ahead of Forsling in 2018-19.
He was traded to Carolina in the summer of 2019, who at 23 kept him in the AHL all season, their bottom D-men were Gardiner (29), TVR (28), Fleury (23), traded for Skjei in Feb, 2020 so no room at the inn.
Went on waivers when the season started in January and claimed by Florida.

Shows you that marinating a D-man in the AHL doesn't hurt their career!.
Also why you should extensively scout the AHL, especially teams with logjams at positions where solid players are blocked and may be available for cheap.
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Verhaege wanted more ice time. And he asked - from what I understand - for more salary from Tampa than he ended up signing with the Panthers.

Where was he fitting in a top six on a team that had Stamkos, Kucherov, Point, Palat, Killorn, Cirelli, Gourde, Coleman and Johnson? Tampa had like 9-10 guys who were capable of ~50 points! And they were right up against the cap.

And they did not keep Paquette "over him" really. Paquette was signed to a deal in summer 2019 before Verhaege had played a single game for Tampa, and played a different position! And other teams knew Tampa's cap issues and were lowballing them on players in general.

Tampa would have loved to keep him but they did not have cap space and had a lot of guys already signed to deals that would have been harder to move.


Chicago... yeh... they have been awful judges of talent for close to a decade now.
And yeh, Carolina liked Forsling but did not have space.

And I agree on why finding players on the margins is what good teams do! In AHL, Euro leagues etc... as transferability between one pro league to another is pretty consistent. A P/GP AHLer who is age 21-23 is close to guaranteed to be a top 6 forwards. A 0.5 P/GP AHL Dman who is age 21-23 is very likely going to be a top 4 Dman unless super flawed.

But teams get tunnel vision for specific player types, styles, fits etc... f***... we have teams right now advertising they want "specific handedness of centers"... instead of just getting the guy who is best at the position. And that is a big reason some teams keep finding gems and making trades for value and others overpay constantly and guys they acquire disappoint.
 
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I mean... some of the team building processes that some NHL GMs decide on are about as logical as:

"we really need a Gemini with Cancer rising to complement our top six... as they will be high skilled and not scared to try high risk plays... but at the same time will stick up for their team-mates and probably wear a letter on their jersey! Oh, Kaprizov is available? Nah... we already have 2 Taurus in the top 9"
 
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Hollywood Cannon said:
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This is a fireable offense. After being here for over two and a half seasons this clown is still playing blender roulette with his lines. It is unbelievable how little he knows about the abilities of his players. He just doesn't have what it takes to be behind the bench. If he is kept around, besides giving the fans a boring product, he will ruin the development of more players than the franchise can afford.
 
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renberg said:
This is a fireable offense. After being here for over two and a half seasons this clown is still playing blender roulette with his lines. It is unbelievable how little he knows about the abilities of his players. He just doesn't have what it takes to be behind the bench. If he is kept around, besides giving the fans a boring product, he will ruin the development of more players than the franchise can afford.
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The clown is on record saying that he doesn’t know how to coach offense.

Thankfully the Flyers organization doesn’t value offense or powerplay goals
 
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Appleyard said:
I mean... some of the team building processes that some NHL GMs decide on are about as logical as:

"we really need a Gemini with Cancer rising to complement our top six... as they will be high skilled and not scared to try high risk plays... but at the same time will stick up for their team-mates and probably wear a letter on their jersey! Oh, Kaprizov is available? Nah... we already have 2 Taurus in the top 9"
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But fit does matter. Forsling fit a man defense better than a zone defense.
Understanding who fits your team, and who is blocked b/c they're bad fits on other teams, is how you find "hidden gems."

I mean if you're talking elite talent you adjust to the talent, Flyers will find a center who's a good fit for Michkov (and that may be why they fell in love with Jett, his speed and IQ may allow him to be a center who can feed Michkov the puck and CYA, allowing MIchkov to be more aggressive on offense).

But sometimes a player can be talented but a bad fit. I think for the Flyers, Frost might be better as a LW, but Farabee is better suited for the same role. For other teams, he'd fit right in as a middle six center.

Couts five years ago would be a perfect center for Torts, now he's probably better suited to LW where his lack of speed will be less of an issue.

Team building is a jigsaw puzzle where certain pieces can be reshaped to fit, while others are rigid.
 
deadhead said:
But fit does matter. Forsling fit a man defense better than a zone defense.
Understanding who fits your team, and who is blocked b/c they're bad fits on other teams, is how you find "hidden gems."

I mean if you're talking elite talent you adjust to the talent, Flyers will find a center who's a good fit for Michkov (and that may be why they fell in love with Jett, his speed and IQ may allow him to be a center who can feed Michkov the puck and CYA, allowing MIchkov to be more aggressive on offense).

But sometimes a player can be talented but a bad fit. I think for the Flyers, Frost might be better as a LW, but Farabee is better suited for the same role. For other teams, he'd fit right in as a middle six center.

Couts five years ago would be a perfect center for Torts, now he's probably better suited to LW where his lack of speed will be less of an issue.

Team building is a jigsaw puzzle where certain pieces can be reshaped to fit, while others are rigid.
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Given his mobility, stickwork etc... and the fact he is an elite PKer where you basically play zone... I think Forsling would be good in a zone system too... the D in Florida's kind of unusual man D (with less rotations than a traditional man D) mean that they have to skate a lot anyway. And every man D team effectively play zone at times anyway.

Yeh, some players are better in some systems. Some attributes matter relating to that. BUT that is the kind of thing you worry about a lot more with depth players. Elite players or potential elite players - in a sport as fluid as hockey where quite frankly maybe only half of shifts have a strong structure - find a way whatever and most of the best players have played man D, zone D, 1-2-2, 3-2, 2-1-2 etc over their careers. This is not the NFL in terms of tactical sets.

If Luchanko is going to be the Flyers best C because of "fit" well they are totally f***ed. Also, that does not make much sense "fit" wise, he is fast and has an interesting skill-set, but is not even the best play-maker on his junior team. (the guy who is I know, well, quite well I would say! Albeit he wont be as good an NHLer as Jett) As his ceiling is more than likely a good 60 point 2C.

I mean... if talking "elite" Barkov, Mathews, Crosby, Mackinnon, Point, Kopitar etc etc... they are all so different but it really would not matter which the Flyers had if had one a similar age to Michkov... they would be likely contenders in future because a player who is a true 1C or 1D generally will be able to fit with most other players.

If anything you "fit" depth guys around the elite players you have... because elite players are very hard to find and you rarely have a chance to get one who is the exact "Type" you want in a perfect world. Beggers cant be choosers, never look a gift horse in the mouth etc! The Flyers have 1 young elite talent. You dont pass on potential other elite talent because of "Fit" unless you want to fail.

Frost already "fits" as a solid middle six 6. Hence the 47 point pace over last 200 games with above average D!

JojoTheWhale said:
Chicago played Man under Colliton. It was one of the chief complaints that they didn’t have the horses to do it.
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He also played man in Carolina's system.

So yeh, the two places he "failed" he was playing man D as well.
 
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Appleyard said:
I mean... some of the team building processes that some NHL GMs decide on are about as logical as:

"we really need a Gemini with Cancer rising to complement our top six... as they will be high skilled and not scared to try high risk plays... but at the same time will stick up for their team-mates and probably wear a letter on their jersey! Oh, Kaprizov is available? Nah... we already have 2 Taurus in the top 9"
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Briere is a Libra. No wonder we are doomed
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
Chicago played Man under Colliton. It was one of the chief complaints that they didn’t have the horses to do it.
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Forsling was 21, might have been a good fit eventually, but probably not a coincidence that he blossomed after another full season in the AHL - timing is everything in life. If Carolina doesn't trade for Skjei . . .

Though Chicago was a dumpster fire under Colliton.
 
Sometimes I do chuckle when the Flyers compare themselves to teams like Carolina. Or other higher end clubs.

When they use Buffalo as an example of who they just never want to become.


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deadhead said:
But fit does matter. Forsling fit a man defense better than a zone defense.
Understanding who fits your team, and who is blocked b/c they're bad fits on other teams, is how you find "hidden gems."

I mean if you're talking elite talent you adjust to the talent, Flyers will find a center who's a good fit for Michkov (and that may be why they fell in love with Jett, his speed and IQ may allow him to be a center who can feed Michkov the puck and CYA, allowing MIchkov to be more aggressive on offense).

But sometimes a player can be talented but a bad fit. I think for the Flyers, Frost might be better as a LW, but Farabee is better suited for the same role. For other teams, he'd fit right in as a middle six center.

Couts five years ago would be a perfect center for Torts, now he's probably better suited to LW where his lack of speed will be less of an issue.

Team building is a jigsaw puzzle where certain pieces can be reshaped to fit, while others are rigid.
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If you understood hockey systems and the way most teams played. You would understand that moving from center to wing doesn't really mean anything in terms of speed. It's pretty much the same.
 
MJL66 said:
If you understood hockey systems and the way most teams played. You would understand that moving from center to wing doesn't really mean anything in terms of speed. It's pretty much the same.
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Depends on the system.
If you're playing a 2-3 zone, center has about 20' further to skate getting back into position on defense.
So if he lacks speed, he's either going to cheat on offense or get caught up ice on defense.

Foerster's relative lack of speed isn't exposed at wing, and I think Couts would age much better at wing.
 
deadhead said:
Depends on the system.
If you're playing a 2-3 zone, center has about 20' further to skate getting back into position on defense.
So if he lacks speed, he's either going to cheat on offense or get caught up ice on defense.

Foerster's relative lack of speed isn't exposed at wing, and I think Couts would age much better at wing.
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No, that's not how it works in most systems. It's not center or wing. It's F1, F2, F3. First forward on the back check is F1 and takes the center defensive responsibilities. Watch the Flyers play. You'll often see a center on wing position in the defensive zone and vice versa. Once in the zone, the speed factor is not the issue. Moving Couturier to wing over center is not going to change much in terms of his speed of play . If they were playing a center lock system like Berube likes to play, then maybe I could see it.
 
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BiggE said:
The overrating of the Flyers talent level by some is comical. Just because someone plays on a top line or top pair for a mediocre team does not mean they are legit top line/pair players.

Here is an honest breakdown of the Flyers talent level

Elite: Konecny
Potential to become elite: Michkov
Well above average: Sanheim
Slightly above average: York
Average with potential to improve: Brink, Foerster, Ersson
Solid, average NHL players: Cates, Frost, Tippett, Farabee, Couts

Among the prospects

Potentially elite: Zavragin
Potentially above average: Bonk, Bjarnsson, Luchanko, Barkey

Barring massive lottery luck coupled with Zavragin becoming the next Roy/Hasek, this team isn’t winning Cup in 2028 or anytime shortly thereafter.
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Where's Desnoyers?
 
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deadhead said:
Depends on the system.
If you're playing a 2-3 zone, center has about 20' further to skate getting back into position on defense.
So if he lacks speed, he's either going to cheat on offense or get caught up ice on defense.

Foerster's relative lack of speed isn't exposed at wing, and I think Couts would age much better at wing.
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Positionless hockey. It's the future, ya old man.
 
VladDrag said:
Over the last three seasons, at 5v5, the center that's yielded the highest GF, GF%, xGF%, HDCF and second highest xGF is Morgan Frost. Visually they are the most exciting duo this team has. It's crazy that he even says that. It's just another example of Torts biases against Frost.
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I think it's more a HC's frustration with his roster.

The Cates line is playing great, but they're more like the Guorde line was on TB, a group you can spot against other top lines so your scoring lines get better matchups, rather than a top 6 group.

Frost is frustrating, he does just enough that you start him and play him significant minutes, but his limitations are also obvious, despite being physical mature he's too easy to knock off the puck (at least 3 times against the Isles, for example). So you want to play him for offense, but also shelter him a bit.

Couts is playing better, but his line has been used as a 3rd line and generally doesn't get the tough matchups - unless they have a lead and Michkov is benched for someone with better defense. His lack of speed is a bit of a problem in today's NHL. Kopitar is similar, but he's flanked by two fast, skilled forwards in Kemp and Turcotte. ROR, Hertl & Roy on Vegas, Dylan Strome on Wash. That's about it for big, slow veteran centers.

Poehling is fine as a 4C but lacks the playmaking skill to play higher in the lineup, though he was passable with Tippett and TK b/c they create their own offense. But he's more forechecker than defensive center.

Jett will help when he grows up, but they need another top 6, two way center.
This is where I'd package Frost/Farabee, and another assets if needed if I can land one in his early 20s.
A playoff team that is willing to take a young center and more immediate help in return for a top prospect?
 
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