2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[deadhead]

Flyers have talent, what they're trying to do is figure out who fits and where.

On defense, they've settled on three pairs, which are working fine in the short-run, but Risto is probably gone by June and Seeler by next June (NTC expires) as they need to make room for Andrae, Bonk and anyone else who develops.

Right now they have 4 solid lines, but more like 2A, 2B and 3A and 4A.
If they can't land a 1C, they need to incrementally upgrade to 1B, 2A, 2B and 3B.

As they build depth (every starter is above replacement, and some LHV players are replacement or better) they can focus more on upgrades, whether NHL players in trades or gambling on upside in the draft (high floor/low ceiling types have less value when you have organizational depth).

 

[Beef Invictus]

Flyers have talent, what they're trying to do is figure out who fits and where.

On defense, they've settled on three pairs, which are working fine in the short-run, but Risto is probably gone by June and Seeler by next June (NTC expires) as they need to make room for Andrae, Bonk and anyone else who develops.

Right now they have 4 solid lines, but more like 2A, 2B and 3A and 4A.
If they can't land a 1C, they need to incrementally upgrade to 1B, 2A, 2B and 3B.

As they build depth (every starter is above replacement, and some LHV players are replacement or better) they can focus more on upgrades, whether NHL players in trades or gambling on upside in the draft (high floor/low ceiling types have less value when you have organizational depth).

The Flyers are deeply lacking in talent. What talent they do have is commonly grotesquely used.


Neither fit nor talent is present.

 

[kudymen]

November games dont matter

First 60 seasons dont matter

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Trades never happen right now

 

[FLYguy3911]

November games dont matter

First 60 seasons dont matter

And the next 3 years while you're waiting.

 

[deadhead]

I still think 2027-28 is the target year.
And yes, that's three years.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I still think 2027-28 is the target year.
And yes, that's three years.

They already missed that target

 

[Appleyard]

What is talent? Around here, it's almost strictly considered offense.
But if I'm building a team, I'm taking Barkov over Bedard or Hughes or most offense first centers without hesitation.

A lot of very talented players over the years haven't helped their teams win, because they lack intangibles or aren't good at playing with others or are poor fits to the team's scheme.

So to me it's talent AND fit, I don't want to pass on a first tier player for a second tier player, but if I'm looking at two players I consider second tier, and the talent difference is minimal, I'll go with fit - because fit helps maximize the talent of the other players on your roster.

Forsling is not the most talented D-man in the NHL, but he's a great fit to Florida's defense.

Barkov and Forsling are both some of the most talented players at their position in the NHL...

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Barkov and Forsling are both some of the most talented players at their position in the NHL...

Sssshhh. They start getting scared when you speak in facts

 

[ybnvs]

I still think 2027-28 is the target year.
And yes, that's three years.

In the past you've used the Giroux trade as the marking point of the start of the "rebuild". In 2027-2028, what will they be targeting anyway?

And yes, that's six years, actually, using your previous words.

 

[WolfOfBroadStreet14]

Not sure if someone posted it here or another thread but saw them bring up missing Paul Holmgren and I agree.

Holmgren is the best GM this team had in the cap era(I know that isn’t saying much). His tenure up to the Pronger injury was some of the best roster work a GM ever did. Afterwards it got a little ugly but that Pronger sized hole is what changed the trajectory of this team for years.

I also always wonder where we would’ve ended up if Nashville never matched the Weber OS.

 

[deadhead]

Barkov and Forsling are both some of the most talented players at their position in the NHL...

Forsling was picked up on waivers. If he's so "talented" why was he available?
Same with Verhaeghe, let go by TB, are they that bad at "talent" evaluation?
Or is it simply that once you get past a small group of elite players, player success is as much due to situation as raw talent?

Being a talented player and being a good player are not synonymous.

Sometimes a player has to mature physically and mentally, sometimes a player just has to find the right situation or the right linemates/D partner.

One reason to beware of trades and free agents is you don't have as much information about why that player succeeded (or struggled) to know if he'd be as good on your team.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[deadhead]

In the past you've used the Giroux trade as the marking point of the start of the "rebuild". In 2027-2028, what will they be targeting anyway?

And yes, that's six years, actually, using your previous words.

No, I've said the G trade SHOULD have been the start of a rebuild.
A Risto trade should have followed, never should have traded for TDA, etc.
Could have gotten some value for JVR, Hayes, in the summer of 2022.

The rebuild didn't start until the summer of 2023 when Briere took over and Scott retired.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A good reminder that Tortorella has no understanding of offense or the idea that an offensively good line is also defensively good.

Moving once again from a 2 line team to a 1 line team. Right as the pucks stopped going in at a lucky rate!

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, I've said the G trade SHOULD have been the start of a rebuild.
A Risto trade should have followed, never should have traded for TDA, etc.
Could have gotten some value for JVR, Hayes, in the summer of 2022.

The rebuild didn't start until the summer of 2023 when Briere took over and Scott retired.

No, bullshit. Do not lie to us. You argued vigorously and for years that the team is rebuilding and have pointed to that trade as the starting point when we told you they were not.

At least you're finally admitting now that you were wrong.

 

[deadhead]

No, bullshit. Do not lie to us. You argued vigorously and for years that the team is rebuilding and have pointed to that trade as the starting point when we told you they were not.

At least you're finally admitting now that you were wrong.

I've stated repeatedly that they didn't even dare mention the word "rebuild" until Torts came out and said the Emperor has no clothes. Scott simply wouldn't countenance such a move (advised by Barber).

Torts came out and said it would take longer than his contract (which expired in 2025-26) to rebuild this seam. So 2026 or 2027 was always the target, Michkov wasn't expected to come over until 2026 but they didn't care b/c they didn't expect to compete.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I've stated repeatedly that they didn't even dare mention the word "rebuild" until Torts came out and said the Emperor has no clothes. Scott simply wouldn't countenance such a move (advised by Barber).

Torts came out and said it would take longer than his contract (which expired in 2025-26) to rebuild this seam. So 2026 or 2027 was always the target, Michkov wasn't expected to come over until 2026 but they didn't care b/c they didn't expect to compete.

Nope. You're trying to gaslight us. You were insisting they were secretly rebuilding well before Tortorella was hired.

They've already missed that target (which they've never had) by miles, by the way.

 

[Appleyard]

Forsling was picked up on waivers. If he's so "talented" why was he available?
Same with Verhaeghe, let go by TB, are they that bad at "talent" evaluation?
Or is it simply that once you get past a small group of elite players, player success is as much due to situation as raw talent?

Being a talented player and being a good player are not synonymous.

Sometimes a player has to mature physically and mentally, sometimes a player just has to find the right situation or the right linemates/D partner.

One reason to beware of trades and free agents is you don't have as much information about why that player succeeded (or struggled) to know if he'd be as good on your team.

Forsling was underestimated for years... he was a #1 Dman in the SHL as a 19 year old. Chicago screwed around with him. I dont think anyone expected him to be a legit NHL #1 but his trajectory always looked like a top 4 guy.

Tampa knew Verheage was very good. He was the best player in the AHL at age 22-23. They would have loved to keep him but they could not afford to.

They are not synonymous. But to be a top pairing NHL Dman or top six forward you have to be exceptionally talented. And the gap in "talent" between a 50 point guy and a P/GP forward is really not that great in many ways.

Situation matters. Generally not being on a team who try and fit players into a "Mould" helps a lot... and lets them be who they are. But not one top six NHL forward is some plug who works hard. Not one. They are all very talented and generally blew minor leagues out of the water.


And believe me, teams know a lot of information about why players struggled, character, work ethic etc.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why are these old T guys so divorced from reality?

 

[deadhead]

Tampa could have afforded to keep Verhaeghe, he signed a 2yr/$1M AVV RFA deal with Florida.
They just didn't project him as a top six player.
They kept Paquette over him, then traded Paquette the next December.
They also went with Mathieu Joseph and Colton over him the next season.

Chicago were playing Murphy (25), Jokihariu (19) and Dhalstrom (24) ahead of Forsling in 2018-19.
He was traded to Carolina in the summer of 2019, who at 23 kept him in the AHL all season, their bottom D-men were Gardiner (29), TVR (28), Fleury (23), traded for Skjei in Feb, 2020 so no room at the inn.
Went on waivers when the season started in January and claimed by Florida.

Shows you that marinating a D-man in the AHL doesn't hurt their career!.
Also why you should extensively scout the AHL, especially teams with logjams at positions where solid players are blocked and may be available for cheap.

 

[MJL66]

A good reminder that Tortorella has no understanding of offense or the idea that an offensively good line is also defensively good.

Moving once again from a 2 line team to a 1 line team. Right as the pucks stopped going in at a lucky rate!

There are tools available to every single NHL coach that can turn those incorrect assessments into proper evaluations. Tortorella recently stated that he gets an analytics report after every game but he doesn't know what it means.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Verhaeghe was on the cusp of never getting a sizable NHL contract. It always makes me laugh how almost no one ever considers that an NHL player would prefer playing on a team where they can get more ice time and thus future earnings in these discussions. To me, it shows how far behind these guys are in understanding what leverage they have and how to use it.

 

[BiggE]

The overrating of the Flyers talent level by some is comical. Just because someone plays on a top line or top pair for a mediocre team does not mean they are legit top line/pair players.

Here is an honest breakdown of the Flyers talent level

Elite: Konecny
Potential to become elite: Michkov
Well above average: Sanheim
Slightly above average: York
Average with potential to improve: Brink, Foerster, Ersson
Solid, average NHL players: Cates, Frost, Tippett, Farabee, Couts

Among the prospects

Potentially elite: Zavragin
Potentially above average: Bonk, Bjarnsson, Luchanko, Barkey

Barring massive lottery luck coupled with Zavragin becoming the next Roy/Hasek, this team isn’t winning Cup in 2028 or anytime shortly thereafter.

 

[FlyerNutter]

The overrating of the Flyers talent level by some is comical. Just because someone plays on a top line or top pair for a mediocre team does not mean they are legit top line/pair players.

Here is an honest breakdown of the Flyers talent level

Elite: Konecny
Potential to become elite: Michkov
Well above average: Sanheim
Slightly above average: York
Average with potential to improve: Brink, Foerster, Ersson
Solid, average NHL players: Cates, Frost, Tippett, Farabee, Couts

Among the prospects

Potentially elite: Zavragin
Potentially above average: Bonk, Bjarnsson, Luchanko, Barkey

Barring massive lottery luck coupled with Zavragin becoming the next Roy/Hasek, this team isn’t winning Cup in 2028 or anytime shortly thereafter.

Look at the Rantanen trade yesterday, and even if they had the pieces - would they have the gall, and outside of the box thinking to make such a deal?

Same for when Tkachuk was available - or Eichel.

Holmgren did a lot of dumb stuff at the end but he looks like a genius compared to who has come after him.