2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[Ghosts Beer]

I think it's just beating a dead horse at this point.

For me it's just another reason why I can't get excited about tanking and high draft picks. There's always the next Nolan Patrick waiting for you to crush your spirit.

Agreed. I'm still crushed from when the Flyers had the worst record in team history, worst record in the league, but lost the lottery and ended up picking 2nd, and getting JVR instead of Patrick Kane.

Patrick Laine was supposed to be a superstar for Winnipeg, and we all know what happened there.

Yakupov, of course. There are a zillion examples of top 1, 2, 3, picks who flop.

People seem to forget about the lottery on top of everything else.

It's hard enough to be the worst team in the NHL. And with the current rules, even if you somehow manage to have the worst record of 32 teams, there's still a 75% chance you won't get the 1st pick.

And who knows how good the prospects will be in the draft.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Migraine Headaches in Children & Teens: Parent FAQs

In this article, the American Academy of Pediatrics describes signs, symptoms and causes of migraines and how to help children and teens dealing with them.

www.healthychildren.org

His history of migraines which had zero impact on his hockey career before the draft was not consequential. Which is why nobody cares about them until they were a problem as an adult.

How do you know it had zero impact on his hockey career before the draft?

Have you talked to his doctors? Have you talked to Patrick? Have you talked to his coaches?

If he missed games because of migraines, then I'd say that's consequential. If he struggled in games because of migraines, I'd say that's consequential. Wouldn't you?

Now I don't know the intimate details of his migraine history, either, other than it later came out that he had them since he was a child, had them in junior, had a family history of migraines, and ultimately missed a season in the NHL because of them.

But I didn't know he had recurring migraines since he was a child at the time of the draft, which, again, is the whole reason I brought it up -- there are a lot of details about prospects that fans are unaware of.

 

[Strawberry Fields]

The overwhelming sentiment with Patrick in summer 2017 was that we finally had a 50+ point 2C to play behind Giroux.

Then of course what actually happened was Giroux was moved to LW and had his career high in points, while Coururier became a 70+ point 1C for four seasons just as nobody predicted. Not even his biggest fans.

Iirc (prime) Monahan was floated here as a hopeful comp for Patrick after he was drafted.

 

[deadhead]

I think it's just beating a dead horse at this point.

For me it's just another reason why I can't get excited about tanking and high draft picks. There's always the next Nolan Patrick waiting for you to crush your spirit.

Or JVR who's good enough to start, but not good enough to win.

 

[Beef Invictus]

How do you know it had zero impact on his hockey career before the draft?

Have you talked to his doctors? Have you talked to Patrick? Have you talked to his coaches?

If he missed games because of migraines, then I'd say that's consequential. If he struggled in games because of migraines, I'd say that's consequential. Wouldn't you?

Now I don't know the intimate details of his migraine history, either, other than it later came out that he had them since he was a child, had them in junior, had a family history of migraines, and ultimately missed a season in the NHL because of them.

But I didn't know he had recurring migraines since he was a child at the time of the draft, which, again, is the whole reason I brought it up -- there are a lot of details about prospects that fans are unaware of.

What games did he miss due to it?

These kids are under more intense scrutiny than the average pro player. If the guy was missing time for migraines it wouldn't have been missed, as you yourself have argued.

It didn't happen though.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Just spewing horseshit at this point. Patrick was a better prospect than Dubois.

Here's your "horseshit" big guy:

"The consensus amongst scouts surveyed by TSN is that Patrick wouldn't have displaced any of the top four picks in last year's draft. Depending on the scout, they retroactively rank Patrick anywhere between No. 5 and 10, based on his 2015-16 season."
Source: McKenzie's pre-season ranking: The 'Nolan Patrick Draft'

Dubois went 3rd, in case you forget.

 

[deadhead]

Looking for centers, but Frost is still talked about as a trade piece. Jerk off Torts just showed his bias with comments again last night.

Oh come on, Frost screwed the pooch at a critical moment, that would stick the craw of any HC.
He did say nice things about Frost otherwise.

The problem with Frost is there's something missing, he just lacks "it," he almost scores goals, he almost makes plays. He's actually playing well, he's a solid 3C, but at 25 isn't improving, I mean he's played with our best forwards most of the season. But the production isn't there. 2 primary assists in 40 games when you're feeding Michkov and TK?

Yes, if they can land a young legitimate two way top six center who's a better fit, I'd include Frost in the package.
Of course, the odds of this happening are slim and none, b/c teams don't trade these kinds of players.

I expect both Frost and Cates to be extended after this season, Jett to come up and the three to man the fort with Couts moving to LW. But Briere will be looking for centers in the draft and the trade market. Upgrade at the high end and build organizational depth at the low end.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Just in time for a big contract.

#sustainable heater...

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh come on, Frost screwed the pooch at a critical moment, that would stick the craw of any HC.
He did say nice things about Frost otherwise.

The problem with Frost is there's something missing, he just lacks "it," he almost scores goals, he almost makes plays. He's actually playing well, he's a solid 3C, but at 25 isn't improving, I mean he's played with our best forwards most of the season. But the production isn't there. 2 primary assists in 40 games when you're feeding Michkov and TK?

Yes, if they can land a young legitimate two way top six center who's a better fit, I'd include Frost in the package.
Of course, the odds of this happening are slim and none, b/c teams don't trade these kinds of players.

I expect both Frost and Cates to be extended after this season, Jett to come up and the three to man the fort with Couts moving to LW. But Briere will be looking for centers in the draft and the trade market. Upgrade at the high end and build organizational depth at the low end.

Other players screw up worse all the time and get no consequences.

 

[deadhead]

Other players screw up worse all the time and get no consequences.

What consequences? Torts has criticized other players all the time for these sorts of mistakes.
I have no idea why people give Frost the "kid gloves" treatment.
He's a solid 3C, just hasn't improved to where you can see him as a reliable 2C.

He is what he is, fast, skilled but not special. Flashes at time, has improved on defense, is going to the net now instead of hanging on the perimeter. There are no "character issues."
He may well be better suited to LW down the road, b/c I don't see a play driver at center.
There is no sign that he's going to take the next step up.

 

[Cody Webster]

Just in time for a big contract.

Just in time for the cap to go up

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Oh come on, Frost screwed the pooch at a critical moment, that would stick the craw of any HC.
He did say nice things about Frost otherwise.

The problem with Frost is there's something missing, he just lacks "it," he almost scores goals, he almost makes plays. He's actually playing well, he's a solid 3C, but at 25 isn't improving, I mean he's played with our best forwards most of the season. But the production isn't there. 2 primary assists in 40 games when you're feeding Michkov and TK?

Yes, if they can land a young legitimate two way top six center who's a better fit, I'd include Frost in the package.
Of course, the odds of this happening are slim and none, b/c teams don't trade these kinds of players.

I expect both Frost and Cates to be extended after this season, Jett to come up and the three to man the fort with Couts moving to LW. But Briere will be looking for centers in the draft and the trade market. Upgrade at the high end and build organizational depth at the low end.

Exactly. Frost scores a big PP goal last night, but he also nearly cost them the game with an egregious turnover in front of his own net, only to be bailed out by some incredible saves by Ersson.

The game before against Anaheim yes, Frost gets a lucky goal off of his skate after he misses the deflection with his stick, but also had two egregious mistakes that could have made the game go in a completely different direction:

1) An unforced turnover in the neutral zone near the offensive blue line that sprung Anaheim the other way.
2) Inexplicably skating the puck in front of his own goalie in the D zone and losing it. Could've been disastrous.

And this is Frost's biggest problem aside from his inconsistency: The dangerous mistakes and turnovers

 

[FLYguy3911]

Here's your "horseshit" big guy:

"The consensus amongst scouts surveyed by TSN is that Patrick wouldn't have displaced any of the top four picks in last year's draft. Depending on the scout, they retroactively rank Patrick anywhere between No. 5 and 10, based on his 2015-16 season."
Source: McKenzie's pre-season ranking: The 'Nolan Patrick Draft'

Dubois went 3rd, in case you forget.

Anonymous quotes are really doing a lot of leg work for you, huh?

Matthews and the Two Finns (at the time)? Sure. A winger from the QMJHL was not going ahead of a Center from the WHL who just came off a playoff MVP perfromance in the Playoffs with Brandon. Patrick outplayed Dubois the summer before too with Team Canada.

And if we are taking TSN as Gospel, Craig Button said this before the year:

There are a number of very good players available in the 2017 NHL Draft, but Nolan Patrick of the Brandon Wheat Kings is a franchise centre and superior talent who stands alone at No. 1.

Patrick stepped into the WHL two seasons ago and has shown that he has all the capabilities to be the top centre teams covet. The 6-foot-3, 195-pound pivot was named WHL Rookie of the Year in 2015 after scoring 30 goals and racking up 56 points in 55 games. He was awarded MVP of the 2016 WHL playoffs, following up a 102-point regular season with 30 points in 21 postseason games.

Craig’s List: Nolan Patrick stands above the rest - TSN.ca

The Brandon Wheat Kings player is a franchise centre and superior talent who tops TSN Director of Scouting Craig Button's first ranking for the 2017 NHL Draft.

www.tsn.ca

Those guys don't fall to the '7th overall range' in any draft.

Also a bit weird of you to be so excited for a guy that wouldn't go until the 7th overall range the year prior.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What consequences? Torts has criticized other players all the time for these sorts of mistakes.
I have no idea why people give Frost the "kid gloves" treatment.
He's a solid 3C, just hasn't improved to where you can see him as a reliable 2C.

He is what he is, fast, skilled but not special. Flashes at time, has improved on defense, is going to the net now instead of hanging on the perimeter. There are no "character issues."
He may well be better suited to LW down the road, b/c I don't see a play driver at center.
There is no sign that he's going to take the next step up.

Oh, no. No he hasn't. Cates flubbing chances is never pointed out. Laughton and Tippett get infinite rope. So do Risto and Seeler. There is no equality. The guy plays favorites and does so in a way that lowers the team's ceiling, which is how he's has always worked. Higher floor, lower ceiling. It's part of why his teams go nowhere.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I get that this is a whole thing now, but at some point it should be a sign who is defending the Flyers on this one. It's a pretty critical crowd.

 

[MJL66]

The timeline of Fletchers quote does not show that they knew he had migraines as a kid before they drafted him. It shows they were aware of them after they were a problem as an adult.

This "character issues" shit reads like the same smear campaign the Flyers run about every single player that annoys them somehow. Seen it too many times now.

He doesn't understand that and never will. There were no reports pre draft of Patrick having either a migraine issue or a character issue.

 

[flyersnorth]

Missing on one pick is only a problem if you're really badly managed. If your margin of error is that non-existent then you suck

Sadly, they "missed" on a lot of 1st round picks (in terms of the ultimate outcome).

Patrick, Gauthier, Morin, O'Brien, Rubtsov.

You could consider Provorov as underwhelming for his draft position.

 

[MJL66]

I didn't say they did an intensive background investigation of his migraine issues, per se.

I said teams perform intensive background investigations of players that they are considering drafting with a pick that high. They interview everyone. Former coaches and management, former teammates, family, rival coaches and management, scouts. They review medical histories and medical records.

And I'm not buying this BS that 1 out of every 4 kids suffers from migraines, either, Dr. Beef.

I don't even know what you're attempting to argue. That Patrick's migraine history is no big deal? How would you know?

The point is that he HAD a history of migraines, dating back to his youth and that it cropped up in pre-junior and junior hockey, as well.

Do I know the extent? No, of course not. How would I? I don't have access to his medical records. I haven't talked to his doctors. Neither do you, neither have you.

We know the extent because there would be reports of him missing games in juniors for a migraine issue as well as his first two NHL seasons when he played 70+ games in both.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Anonymous quotes are really doing a lot of leg work for you, huh?

Matthews and the Two Finns (at the time)? Sure. A winger from the QMJHL was not going ahead of a Center from the WHL who just came off a playoff MVP perfromance in the Playoffs with Brandon. Patrick outplayed Dubois the summer before too with Team Canada.

And if we are taking TSN as Gospel, Craig Button said this before the year:

Craig’s List: Nolan Patrick stands above the rest - TSN.ca

The Brandon Wheat Kings player is a franchise centre and superior talent who tops TSN Director of Scouting Craig Button's first ranking for the 2017 NHL Draft.

www.tsn.ca

Those guys don't fall to the '7th overall range' in any draft.

Also a bit weird of you to be so excited for a guy that wouldn't go until the 7th overall range the year prior.

Oh, so you think Bob McKenzie is lying now when he surveys scouts? OK. Great rebuttal.

YOU might not agree with the scouts surveyed, but don't tell me that I'm "spewing horseshit." AKA accusing me of lying. I brought the receipts.

 

[MJL66]

What consequences? Torts has criticized other players all the time for these sorts of mistakes.
I have no idea why people give Frost the "kid gloves" treatment.
He's a solid 3C, just hasn't improved to where you can see him as a reliable 2C.

He is what he is, fast, skilled but not special. Flashes at time, has improved on defense, is going to the net now instead of hanging on the perimeter. There are no "character issues."
He may well be better suited to LW down the road, b/c I don't see a play driver at center.
There is no sign that he's going to take the next step up.

How many of those other players have been scratched 12 games or whatever after playing two games to start a season. After having a solid camp and pretty much leading the team in scoring the 2nd half of the previous season?

 

[deadhead]

Oh, no. No he hasn't. Cates flubbing chances is never pointed out. Laughton and Tippett get infinite rope. So do Risto and Seeler. There is no equality. The guy plays favorites and does so in a way that lowers the team's ceiling, which is how he's has always worked. Higher floor, lower ceiling. It's part of why his teams go nowhere.

That's not true. I listen to all the pressers, and Torts has criticized every player on the team at one point or another. He has also praised every player at one point or another.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sadly, they "missed" on a lot of 1st round picks (in terms of the ultimate outcome).

Patrick, Gauthier, Morin, O'Brien, Rubtsov.

You could consider Provorov as underwhelming for his draft position.

Yeah that's why Patrick busting is a big deal. Really the only reason anyone is still targeting it this severely this long afterwards. They screwed up a ton of other stuff, and since 2018 have screwed up almost everything they've touched. Patrick happens to be high profile so it gets more attention than all the other disasters, all of which I was told don't matter and don't add up. Seems they do!

If they turn in even an average management performance it doesn't matter now. It's forgotten except as trivia.

Some people don't want to admit that this management group has sucked the goat's ass empty for 7 years though. So they pin it all on this one single occurrence from our youth. And it's weird.

 

[MJL66]

That's not true. I listen to all the pressers, and Torts has criticized every player on the team at one point or another. He has also praised every player at one point or another.

Criticism? You mean words? Tippett in his Flyers career has been horrendous away from the puck. When was he ever scratched for it? You listen to all of Totorella's pressers? Why on earth would anyone do that?

 

[Beef Invictus]

That's not true. I listen to all the pressers, and Torts has criticized every player on the team at one point or another. He has also praised every player at one point or another.

And taken zero action against them. You always tell us his words don't matter, after all. I believe you. So I'm only paying attention to what he actually does.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Sadly, they "missed" on a lot of 1st round picks (in terms of the ultimate outcome).

Patrick, Gauthier, Morin, O'Brien, Rubtsov.

You could consider Provorov as underwhelming for his draft position.

Yes indeed. You can arguably include Frost, too, considering what they traded in order to select him.

I'm conflicted on how to define Gauthier. Because he did become a top prospect. But they missed on his personality. I guess it will depend on how Drysdale and the 2nd turn out.