2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[Audible Velvet]

Oh, no. No he hasn't. Cates flubbing chances is never pointed out. Laughton and Tippett get infinite rope. So do Risto and Seeler. There is no equality. The guy plays favorites and does so in a way that lowers the team's ceiling, which is how he's has always worked. Higher floor, lower ceiling. It's part of why his teams go nowhere.

From my limited viewing, Noah has been extremely fortunate with his “puck luck”. I’m sure his virtue and work ethic are able to influence the laws of physics, so credit to the guy.

 

[bennysflyers16]

He doesn't understand that and never will. There were no reports pre draft of Patrick having either a migraine issue or a character issue.

To be fair, ZERO migraine talk here, but there were some rumblings about his character as a kid from some people I know. He was featured quite alot on local news cause he was so good and the name.

But imagine that talk applies to any superstar kid who is miles better than all the rest.

Nothing at all to be concerned with and I was pumped with the Patrick and Provy picks at the time.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

This is from June 2017:
View attachment 960760

Your point?

 

[bennysflyers16]

Tippet is producing the exact same PTS/60 as Frost (2.2), so saying Tippet doesn't get punished because of his production is horseshit.

Frost makes 1/3 as much as Tippet. He's better at defence. And he produces at the same rate. But Frost gets punished for poor play and Tippet gets a free ride?

Horse. Shit. Torts plays favourites.

KABOOM !!!

 

[freakydallas13]

Your point?

What do you think a consensus means? Because this is the consensus as Bob Mack had it showing Patrick at 2nd overall.

You also didn't reply to the dozen sources I posted yesterday showing Patrick at either 1 or 2 overall pre-draft btw, is that not enough to show a consensus?

 

[mr figgles]

Just in time for the cap to go up

Along with his salary demands

 

[MJL66]

To be fair, ZERO migraine talk here, but there were some rumblings about his character as a kid from some people I know. He was featured quite alot on local news cause he was so good and the name.

But imagine that talk applies to any superstar kid who is miles better than all the rest.

Nothing at all to be concerned with and I was pumped with the Patrick and Provy picks at the time.

Here is my point. From some people you know. Who are they? With a high profile pick like Patrick, if there are rumblings about his character. That doesn't escape the national hockey media. It would be uncovered and reported. Same as any physical issues. We knew about his injuries heading into the draft but another poster wants us to believe that a migraine issue was present pre draft but it was cloaked in secrecy, classified as top secret and redacted from the hockey world.

 

[Striiker]

Are dumb.

Everyone knows they're drones. @Striiker

Exactly. Piloted drones.

Everyone knows this.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

What do you think a consensus means? Because this is the consensus as Bob Mack had it showing Patrick at 2nd overall.

You also didn't reply to the dozen sources I posted yesterday showing Patrick at either 1 or 2 overall pre-draft btw, is that not enough to show a consensus?

When did I say Patrick wasn't the general "consensus" top 2? If I did, I misspoke. What I was arguing was that it was far from nearly unanimous as many posters were making it sound. There were many varying opinions on Patrick, and his stock in general was slipping as the draft approached. Multiple teams did not have him in their top 2.

Here is my point. From some people you know. Who are they? With a high profile pick like Patrick, if there are rumblings about his character. That doesn't escape the national hockey media. It would be uncovered and reported. Same as any physical issues. We knew about his injuries heading into the draft but another poster wants us to believe that a migraine issue was present pre draft but it was cloaked in secrecy, classified as top secret and redacted from the hockey world.

Did you read the McCagg article I posted yesterday from before the draft?

It quoted multiple sources mentioning there were concerns about Patrick's character.

I didn't realize it at the time, but apparently these character issues were pretty well known in hockey circles.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I would agree. By multiple accounts, it was Hextall who overruled his scouts to take Patrick.

Accounts who changed their story over time.

 

[Beef Invictus]

When did I say Patrick wasn't the general "consensus" top 2? If I did, I misspoke. What I was arguing was that it was far from nearly unanimous as many posters were making it sound. There were many varying opinions on Patrick, and his stock in general was slipping as the draft approached. Multiple teams did not have him in their top 2.


Did you read the McCagg article I posted yesterday from before the draft?

It quoted multiple sources mentioning there were concerns about Patrick's character.

I didn't realize it at the time, but apparently these character issues were pretty well known in hockey circles.

Nobody has said it was unanimous. Nobody. You're back to inventing things because your points can't stand otherwise.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Nobody has said it was unanimous. Nobody. You're back to inventing things because your points can't stand otherwise.

If people aren't implying Patrick at 2 was nearly unanimous, then I have no idea why they're arguing with me.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If people aren't implying Patrick at 2 was nearly unanimous, then I have no idea why they're arguing with me.

Because you're saying many untrue nonsense things based almost entirely on an outlier report from a guy who is usually wrong and trying to pretend Hextall made some franchise-destroying decision out of the blue and against the grain, when nothing of the sort happened?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Because you're saying many untrue nonsense things based almost entirely on an outlier report from a guy who is usually wrong and trying to pretend Hextall made some franchise-destroying decision out of the blue and against the grain, when nothing of the sort happened?

I said Hextall made what turned out to be a franchise-destroying decision in overruling his scouts to take Patrick when they recommended either defenseman over him.

How many times do I have to repeat this? 7 million?

 

[freakydallas13]

Patrick at 1st or 2nd was the overwhelming majority and the consensus pre-draft. To try and claim with hindsight it was a bad pick to take him at 2nd because a small minority would have taken Patrick a few picks later is revisionist history.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'll never be able to find the one-off scout quote I read years ago who said Patrick would've ranked roughly around 7 if he were eligible for the 2016 draft that he missed by 4 days, but I sure found an article that supports it with McKenzie, whose scout survey said he'd go somewhere between 5-10. 5-10 range isn't roughly around 7???

Maybe Patrick was a better prospect than Dubois according to you, but he wasn't according to the scouts in McKenzie's survey. And I've never heard McKenzie accused of taking a fraudulent scout survey.

The POINT is that you accused me of lying, "spewing horseshit," and got caught.

As I've said numerous times in this thread, damn right I was excited about Patrick when the Flyers drafted him. Yes I had him as the #2 player in the draft. Yes I got caught up in the hype that for a long time had him ranked #1.

So what? What does that have to do with anything? Was I employed full-time by the Flyers to scout and investigate these guys and make the right pick for a billion dollar organization? Did I have access to his medical records and character concerns? You've never been wrong on a prospect before?

My opinion as a fan at the time is completely irrelevant to the fact that the Flyers made a mistake, especially considering the scouts who ARE paid by the Flyers full time to evaluate these guys ranked both Makar and Heiskanen over Patrick, and Hextall overruled them.

The horseshit is that you are taking a blurb from a preseason poll of ten scouts of which there was a consensus, NOT unanimous, opinion that Patrick would hypothetically not go in the top 4 of the previous draft even though he wasn't eligible and even though he was better at every step than his closest comparable in that top 4 up until that point (and the next season). For what reason? I guess to show that Patrick was never that good. But if you admit that flat out, then missing on Patrick can't be considered a franchise altering mistake for a team that was slated to pick 13th before the lottery. Also admitting that means you aren't the prospect guru you think you are since you were his biggest cheerleader on Draft Day.

And it completely misses out on the context that at this time the two players the Flyers' scouts supposedly wanted (which one depends on who is playing well at the time) were never in the picture so what does that say about their quality according to these trustworthy TSN-sourced scouts (they still had Patrick over those two in the end btw)? Of course those Flyers scouts are still here and advocating for selections that don't get nearly the same attention because the Dictator is not here anymore. Also helps that The Hive is railing the process so you can't be apart of that because you won't come off as the smartest guy in the room.

And on McKenzie. He has the best rankings in the business for predicting the draft order. No doubt. His sources in the league are top notch. But I'm not sure his ranking track record is on the backs of these anonymous scouts.

Here were his rankings from Draft Lottery Night:

1. Patrick
2. Hischier
3. Vilardi
4. Heiskanen
5. Mittelstadt
6. Tippett(!)
7. Makar
8. Rasmussen
9. Glass
10. Necas
11. Pettersson

Here were his final Draft Rankings:

1. Hischier
2. Patrick
3. Heiskanen
4. Makar
5. Vilardi
6. Mittelstadt
7. Pettersson
8. Glass
9. Rasmussen
10. Tippett
11. Necas

If NY doesn't go off the board, that's almost the top 11 pick for pick. Hmmm weird. No credible scouts are changing their rankings that much when no real meaningful hockey was played during that time. So please forgive me if I don't fully buy that McKenzie's rankings and opinions are solely based on the ten scouts he anonymously polls. Ten scouts that supposedly produce a top 100 list. I bet!

 

[Beef Invictus]

I said Hextall made what turned out to be a franchise-destroying decision in overruling his scouts to take Patrick when they recommended either defenseman over him.

How many times do I have to repeat this? 7 million?

That wasn't franchise-destroying. All the failures that followed (chiefly from your favorite manager, Fletcher and his group of cronies who are still here) were the franchise-destroyer. All the stuff you pretend didn't matter did matter and it is why the team is like it is. If Patrick hits then this team still sucks and is in the exact same place because they screw up everything that follows and he has nothing around him. So it's hard to see how it matters that much when it's a drop in the chamberpot compared to the entire septic tank of sludge that is unfolding since then.

And that story you insist on is based on an unreliable and changing account.

 

[MJL66]

Did you read the McCagg article I posted yesterday from before the draft?

It quoted multiple sources mentioning there were concerns about Patrick's character.

I didn't realize it at the time, but apparently these character issues were pretty well known in hockey circles.

Not a reliable source in my opinion. They were so pretty well known that it was virtually unreported. You continue to invent your own reality.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Patrick at 1st or 2nd was the overwhelming majority and the consensus pre-draft. To try and claim with hindsight it was a bad pick to take him at 2nd because a small minority would have taken Patrick a few picks later is revisionist history.

Whelp, the Flyers scouts were right in ranking both Makar and Heiskanen over Patrick.

That's what they pay them to do: Evaluate the players themselves and get it right, not just follow the general "consensus."

If the goal is simply to follow the general consensus, why are you employing your own scouting staff?

Isn't the goal to beat the consensus over the long-term? Be better than the consensus? Get an edge?

The Flyers' scouts had it right, and Hextall made a huge mistake in overruling his scouts. That's his right as GM, it's his final call, but he was wrong and it really hurt the future of the franchise.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A major problem with the scouts story is that is requires assuming a vengeful Clarke isn't lying through his teeth like he always has. That he's telling the truth in a situation like this for the first time in his life.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Not a reliable source in my opinion. They were so pretty well known that it was virtually unreported. You continue to invent your own reality.

I think you find reasons to ignore and discredit things you don't want to believe are true.

I said I wasn't aware of the character concerns. I don't think they were known publicly by many people.

What I did say was that the character concerns were apparently pretty well known "inside hockey circles."

That's the difference. I wasn't privy to them. You weren't. But they were known inside the hockey community. The quotes in the McCagg article indicate that. You can say McCagg fabricated the quotes because you don't like McCagg. I doubt he has that kind of dishonesty. Regardless of how you feel about his hockey opinions, he was just reporting quotes in this case and described the people who gave him the quotes. I'm not going to call him a liar.

 

[MJL66]

I think you find reasons to ignore and discredit things you don't want to believe are true.

I said I wasn't aware of the character concerns. I don't think they were known publicly by many people.

What I did say was that the character concerns were apparently pretty well known "inside hockey circles."

That's the difference. I wasn't privy to them. You weren't. But they were known inside the hockey community. The quotes in the McCagg article indicate that. You can say McCagg fabricated the quotes because you don't like McCagg. I doubt he has that kind of dishonesty. Regardless of how you feel about his hockey opinions, he was just reporting quotes in this case and described the people who gave him the quotes. I'm not going to call him a liar.

No, I discredit things that aren't supported by credible sources and the facts. The character concerns are in the same pot as the migraine issue. Branded top secret, written in code and redacted and kept from the public. All so well known that nobody knew about it. So well known in the hockey community that a top prospect in the draft had a character issue that nobody reported it. Got it.

 

[freakydallas13]

Whelp, the Flyers scouts were right in ranking both Makar and Heiskanen over Patrick.

That's what they pay them to do: Evaluate the players themselves and get it right, not just follow the general "consensus."

If the goal is simply to follow the general consensus, why are you employing your own scouting staff?

Isn't the goal to beat the consensus over the long-term? Be better than the consensus? Get an edge?

The Flyers' scouts had it right, and Hextall made a huge mistake in overruling his scouts. That's his right as GM, it's his final call, but he was wrong and it really hurt the future of the franchise.

Again, this is revisionist history. It wasn't some franchise crippling move Hextall went off the board to make. It was the same choice the vast majority of scouts, pundits, and hockey pros would have made at the same time. The fact Bob Clarke had to pipe in years later with his "scouts wanted...." quip is irrelevant.

You could probably point to every good draft pick a GM made and show how some scouts disagreed with it. These mean nothing, in both directions. It's mountains out of molehills. It's some strange obsession you have with vilifying Hextall while simultaneously praising the scouts. And it is in fact, revisionist history.

 

[Beef Invictus]

All the stranger because when it comes to the roster, most of its strongest points are courtesy of Hextall. It's a weird place to put blame when it comes to roster construction.

When it comes to how players are handled, that's a different matter and it's where he remains a persistent begoateed tumor in the ointment.

 

[deadhead]

All the stranger because when it comes to the roster, most of its strongest points are courtesy of Hextall. It's a weird place to put blame when it comes to roster construction.

When it comes to how players are handled, that's a different matter and it's where he remains a persistent begoateed tumor in the ointment.

Couts, Laughton - Holmgren
TK, Farabee, Frost, Cates, Sanheim, Zamula, Ersson, Fedotov - Hextall (5 yrs)
Tippett, Foerster, Brink, Risto, York, Seeler - Fletcher (4 yrs)
Michkov, Poehling, Hathaway, Drysdale - Briere (2 yrs)