2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[Hollywood Cannon]

Who here has adenoids?

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Who here has adenoids?

I actually dont

 

[Lord Defect]

Who here has adenoids?

I still don’t know what’s this is all about, and I’m quite content in that.

 

[ajgoal]

I still don’t know what’s this is all about, and I’m quite content in that.

Spoken like someone who still has them.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Not every issue is an issue. 25% of kids have migraines by the time they're teens. It's a common problem. Unless he was missing serious time or it presented as an unusual problem, then it doesn't matter.

Where is the evidence it was an uncommon problem?

My whole point was that NHL organizations have access to information on prospects that the general public does not.

Example: I didn't know about Patrick's alleged character issues. I don't have connections around the kid. But apparently inside hockey circles there were character concerns.

I didn't know he had migraine issues since his youth. That he had a family history of migraines. That he had some migraine issues in junior hockey.

But NHL organizations are way more likely to have known about this with the amount of background investigating they do, with their access to hockey connections, and especially with their access to medical records, of the players they are considering drafting at the top of the draft.

Would the migraine history be enough to steer a team away from Patrick? I don't know. I don't know the extent of it pre-draft and I don't have access to his medical history.

But with all of the other questions surrounding Patrick: multiple surgeries, a pretty significant injury history, character concerns, and apparently often uninspiring play in his draft year (again, the public doesn't have access to the reports of rival WHL coaches and management who assessed his play), it may have just been one more reason to steer clear.

These issues add up to a lot of risk for the #2 overall pick.

Me? I unabashedly was excited about the Patrick pick (though ultimately by the draft I was hoping for Hischier). I probably would have been much less so if I were privy to all of this inside information.

 

[Beef Invictus]

My whole point was that NHL organizations have access to information on prospects that the general public does not.

Example: I didn't know about Patrick's alleged character issues. I don't have connections around the kid. But apparently inside hockey circles there were character concerns.

I didn't know he had migraine issues since his youth. That he had a family history of migraines. That he had some migraine issues in junior hockey.

But NHL organizations are way more likely to have known about this with the amount of background investigating they do, with their access to hockey connections, and especially with their access to medical records, of the players they are considering drafting at the top of the draft.

Would the migraine history be enough to steer a team away from Patrick? I don't know. I don't know the extent of it pre-draft and I don't have access to his medical history.

But with all of the other questions surrounding Patrick: multiple surgeries, a pretty significant injury history, character concerns, and apparently often uninspiring play in his draft year (again, the public doesn't have access to the reports of rival WHL coaches and management who assessed his play), it may have just been one more reason to steer clear.

These issues add up to a lot of risk for the #2 overall pick.

Me? I unabashedly was excited about the Patrick pick. I probably would have been much less so if I were privy to all of this inside information.

The timeline of Fletchers quote does not show that they knew he had migraines as a kid before they drafted him. It shows they were aware of them after they were a problem as an adult.

This "character issues" shit reads like the same smear campaign the Flyers run about every single player that annoys them somehow. Seen it too many times now.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The timeline of Fletchers quote does not show that they knew he had migraines as a kid before they drafted him. It shows they were aware of them after they were a problem as an adult.

This "character issues" shit reads like the same smear campaign the Flyers run about every single player that annoys them somehow. Seen it too many times now.

You don't think teams reviewed Nolan Patrick's medical records before the draft?

You don't think they conducted an intensive background investigation?

If Nolan had migraine issues dating back to his youth, including in junior hockey, I sure as hell am erring on the side of teams being aware of it.

Maybe teams didn't think it was a big deal. Maybe they weren't that extensive. But maybe for some teams it would be just one more issue among many others that, added together, made them leery.

Regardless, again, my point is that teams have access to info that fans do not.

 

[ponder719]

Who here has adenoids?

I have Altoids, if that helps.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

So anyway, how about that Noah Cates!

Last 16 games: 8 goals, 6 assists

 

[JojoTheWhale]

This "character issues" shit reads like the same smear campaign the Flyers run about every single player that annoys them somehow. Seen it too many times now.

At least one Flyers’ front office member wears a Catholics vs Creminoles t shirt he bought in the last 10 years. I’m just saying.

 

[Curufinwe]

Yes, the people on the Anti-Patrick crusade currently are trying to push their own agenda with nothing but hindsight and revisionism. I was hyped on Patrick too at the time, though I thought he topped out at a 30-30 type of guy. I still thought that was good though!

The overwhelming sentiment with Patrick in summer 2017 was that we finally had a 50+ point 2C to play behind Giroux.

Then of course what actually happened was Giroux was moved to LW and had his career high in points, while Coururier became a 70+ point 1C for four seasons just as nobody predicted. Not even his biggest fans.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You don't think teams reviewed Nolan Patrick's medical records before the draft?

You don't think they conducted an intensive background investigation?

If Nolan had migraine issues dating back to his youth, including in junior hockey, I sure as hell am erring on the side of teams being aware of it.

Maybe teams didn't think it was a big deal. Maybe they weren't that extensive. But maybe for some teams it would be just one more issue among many others that, added together, made them leery.

Regardless, again, my point is that teams have access to info that fans do not.

No, I do not think that an issue which 25% of kids have and which had not presented any problems with his hockey career was something teams randomly decided to do a massive investigation over. Nor is there a scrap of indication that happened.

It's not even assured it was in his medical report.

 

[mr figgles]

So anyway, how about that Noah Cates!

Last 16 games: 8 goals, 6 assists

Just in time for a big contract.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No, I do not think that an issue which 25% of kids have and which had not presented any problems with his hockey career was something teams randomly decided to do a massive investigation over. Nor is there a scrap of indication that happened.

It's not even assured it was in his medical report.

I didn't say they did an intensive background investigation of his migraine issues, per se.

I said teams perform intensive background investigations of players that they are considering drafting with a pick that high. They interview everyone. Former coaches and management, former teammates, family, rival coaches and management, scouts. They review medical histories and medical records.

And I'm not buying this BS that 1 out of every 4 kids suffers from migraines, either, Dr. Beef.

I don't even know what you're attempting to argue. That Patrick's migraine history is no big deal? How would you know?

The point is that he HAD a history of migraines, dating back to his youth and that it cropped up in pre-junior and junior hockey, as well.

Do I know the extent? No, of course not. How would I? I don't have access to his medical records. I haven't talked to his doctors. Neither do you, neither have you.

 

[Curufinwe]

Something cool I noticed for the first time when looking up Couturier's stats just now. He led the league in Total Goals on-Ice For in 17-18 with 142. The Flyers were basically a one line team that season, although TK was coming.

2017-18 NHL Leaders | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the NHL Leaders & Records including All-Time Career, Single-Season and Playoffs Records for the 2017-18 NHL season on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[TCTC]

The overwhelming sentiment with Patrick in summer 2017 was that we finally had a 50+ point 2C to play behind Giroux.

Then of course what actually happened was Giroux was moved to LW and had his career high in points, while Coururier became a 70+ point 1C for four seasons just as nobody predicted. Not even his biggest fans.

And we traded Schenn because everyone thought there would be no room for him anymore. And with Giroux at LW, Couturier 1C and Patrick not good enough all of a sudden the 2C was Jori Lehtera...

 

[deadhead]

Patrick illustrates something more important, age matters when you look at prospects.
Studies have shown that late birthdays outperform early birthdays.

Which isn't surprising, 8 months is a long time at 17 years old, when many kids are going through growth spurts and where being younger might mean being held back from a major role at 15 or 16, and having one less season of top 6 experience pre-draft. This is one reason you see overage CHL players having breakout seasons, physical maturity plus an extra year of experience provides a competitive edge.

Patrick was a Sept B-day, which mean he was old for his peer group, and fully developed physically.
Which didn't mean he wouldn't have become a good center without the concussions, but it did mean the odds of further physical development (i.e. upside) were smaller and his outstanding performance pre-draft should have been discounted to some extent.

It's not just age, it's physical development. If I draft a 6'3 180 lb kid with a good frame, he'll probably be 6'4 220 at 22, but at 18 he's not going to dominate his peers using his size. But if he's 6'3 205 at 18, playing against 170 lb peers, he's going to stand out but there may be less upside.

Of course, just b/c a late birthday has more potential upside, doesn't mean he'll reach it.
But all else held equal, late birthdays are better bets than early birthdays.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Patrick illustrates something more important, age matters when you look at prospects.
Studies have shown that late birthdays outperform early birthdays.

Which isn't surprising, 8 months is a long time at 17 years old, when many kids are going through growth spurts and where being younger might mean being held back from a major role at 15 or 16, and having one less season of top 6 experience pre-draft. This is one reason you see overage CHL players having breakout seasons, physical maturity plus an extra year of experience provides a competitive edge.

Patrick was a Sept B-day, which mean he was old for his peer group, and fully developed physically.
Which didn't mean he wouldn't have become a good center without the concussions, but it did mean the odds of further physical development (i.e. upside) were smaller and his outstanding performance pre-draft should have been discounted to some extent.

It's not just age, it's physical development. If I draft a 6'3 180 lb kid with a good frame, he'll probably be 6'4 220 at 22, but at 18 he's not going to dominate his peers using his size. But if he's 6'3 205 at 18, playing against 170 lb peers, he's going to stand out but there may be less upside.

Of course, just b/c a late birthday has more potential upside, doesn't mean he'll reach it.
But all else held equal, late birthdays are better bets than early birthdays.

And I recall a scout saying Patrick would have been in the 7th overall pick range in the prior draft, of which he just missed eligibility. And he was better that season than his draft season.

That comment did give me pause at the time.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Here's Elliotte about the Flyers today at 27:22: The FAN Hockey Show
"They are not afraid to do things." Having Qs about goaltending. and looking for centres. Hopeful but want to accelerate. Looking around. Laughton has some interest. Are they really willing to move Frost or Farabee?

Looking for centers, but Frost is still talked about as a trade piece. Jerk off Torts just showed his bias with comments again last night.

 

[TCTC]

And I recall a scout saying Patrick would have been in the 7th overall pick range in the prior draft, of which he just missed eligibility. And he was better that season than his draft season.

That comment did give me pause at the time.

To be fair, the 2016 draft had some crap at the top as well. Laine at 2, Dubois at 3, Puljujarvi at 4. All disappointments. And the 5th pick doesn't even play in the NHL anymore.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

To be fair, the 2016 draft had some crap at the top as well. Laine at 2, Dubois at 3, Puljujarvi at 4. All disappointments. And the 5th pick doesn't even play in the NHL anymore.

Kind of makes it even more damning that Patrick would have only been in the 7 range.

And again, I was excited about Patrick. If the Flyers had the 1st pick I preferred Hischier, but I was still excited about Patrick. But there was a lot of info about him to which I was not privy.

 

[TCTC]

Kind of makes it even more damning that Patrick would have only been in the 7 range.

And again, I was excited about Patrick. If the Flyers had the 1st pick I preferred Hischier, but I was still excited about Patrick. But there was a lot of info about him to which I was not privy.

I think it's just beating a dead horse at this point.

For me it's just another reason why I can't get excited about tanking and high draft picks. There's always the next Nolan Patrick waiting for you to crush your spirit.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I didn't say they did an intensive background investigation of his migraine issues, per se.

I said teams perform intensive background investigations of players that they are considering drafting with a pick that high. They interview everyone. Former coaches and management, former teammates, family, rival coaches and management, scouts. They review medical histories and medical records.

And I'm not buying this BS that 1 out of every 4 kids suffers from migraines, either, Dr. Beef.

I don't even know what you're attempting to argue. That Patrick's migraine history is no big deal? How would you know?

The point is that he HAD a history of migraines, dating back to his youth and that it cropped up in pre-junior and junior hockey, as well.

Do I know the extent? No, of course not. How would I? I don't have access to his medical records. I haven't talked to his doctors. Neither do you, neither have you.

Migraine Headaches in Children & Teens: Parent FAQs

In this article, the American Academy of Pediatrics describes signs, symptoms and causes of migraines and how to help children and teens dealing with them.

www.healthychildren.org

His history of migraines which had zero impact on his hockey career before the draft was not consequential. Which is why nobody cares about them until they were a problem as an adult.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think it's just beating a dead horse at this point.

For me it's just another reason why I can't get excited about tanking and high draft picks. There's always the next Nolan Patrick waiting for you to crush your spirit.

Missing on one pick is only a problem if you're really badly managed. If your margin of error is that non-existent then you suck

 

[FLYguy3911]

Just spewing horseshit at this point. Patrick was a better prospect than Dubois.