2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[blackjackmulligan]

Bob Clarke completely failed to build depth around those skill players because he insisted on having grinders, rather than maximizing skill. Bizarre for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.


Seriously, nobody remembers prior to 2024? We had a thing called the Lindros Era, wherein Clarke totally failed to build around the guy.

failing to build around him doesn't equate to him preferring grinders over skilled players. Which by his transactions show that is false. What is bizarre is you can't acknowledge your statement was wrong.

Who are all these grinders he acquired compared to the skill players he availed. There is a huge gap in favor of skill.

The Flyers once got mad at Frost for scoring too much and insisted that he needs to be more defensive, so clearly they think part of defense involves trading away offense.




It is absolutely factual that he deliberately aimed for grinders to fill out rosters and didn't try for more skill. This has never been a man who accepted that you can score with lines 3 and 4.

it is factual he acquired more skill players than grinders. To say otherwise is boggling to me. It is all pout there to validate. Done with this topic.

 

[deadhead]

I know you keep saying this, and I know Jojo has provided evidence to refute this to you, but that's just not what the data says. Players that tend to take steps forward offensively do it at an expense of their defensive impact.

That needs a deeper dive than raw stats.

I suspect it reflects that top scoring lines are given more leeway to take chances, as long as the increase in goals scored outweigh the goals leaked due to being more aggressive.

But that doesn't mean they're playing worse defensively in terms of fundamentals, just that they're taking more risks. You don't want 2nd tier guys taking the same risks, so their raw defensive stats will look better.

 

[Beef Invictus]

failing to build around him doesn't equate to him preferring grinders over skilled players. Which by his transactions show that is false. What is bizarre is you can't acknowledge your statement was wrong.

Who are all these grinders he acquired compared to the skill players he availed. There is a huge gap in favor of skill.


it is factual he acquired more skill players than grinders. To say otherwise is boggling to me. It is all pout there to validate. Done with this topic.

Failing to build around him because he ceased to hunt for skill if it wasn't the Top 6 has everything to do with it. The Flyers still do it. That philosophy is more alive than ever, coming after Snider died and Clarke's influence increased. A telling sequence of events.

 

[freakydallas13]

That needs a deeper dive than raw stats.

Does it really? Whatever happened to "facts is facts"?

 

[Beef Invictus]

It doesn't.

 

[VladDrag]

Pretty intriguing interview from Torts today. Talked about the center position for the first 4-5mins. When he has interactions like this, I don't mind him. I still don't agree with him, but he is clear in his messaging.

-Doesn't think the center position generates enough offense
-Still thinks Cates can be an offensive center
-Stated they are drafting centers because there is a weakness at the NHL level
-Says he cannot go thru the same process with Frost as the last two years, not fair to him.

 

[thedjpd]

Pretty intriguing interview from Torts today. Talked about the center position for the first 4-5mins. When he has interactions like this, I don't mind him. I still don't agree with him, but he is clear in his messaging.

-Doesn't think the center position generates enough offense
-Still thinks Cates can be an offensive center
-Stated they are drafting centers because there is a weakness at the NHL level
-Says he cannot go thru the same process with Frost as the last two years, not fair to him.

I read this as Frost needs to just flat produce. No more excuses. We can claim fancy stats all we want, but at the end there has to be production. It is technically 3 years in a row now he has 'started slow.' If he wants to continue to be in the NHL, you can't disappear for 1/2 of the season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Pretty intriguing interview from Torts today. Talked about the center position for the first 4-5mins. When he has interactions like this, I don't mind him. I still don't agree with him, but he is clear in his messaging.

Let's see.

-Doesn't think the center position generates enough offense

True

-Still thinks Cates can be an offensive center

Oh. And this is why the above is happening. They have no idea what they're doing.

-Stated they are drafting centers because there is a weakness at the NHL level

Bad process, since almost everything is a weakness at the NHL level

-Says he cannot go thru the same process with Frost as the last two years, not fair to him.

And yet he is! Seems to me like a low-key demand that he be traded. Looking forward to more whining about no offense after they lose that trade.



At least he's honest about why they're awful, I guess. Problem being he isn't aware of it.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Pretty intriguing interview from Torts today. Talked about the center position for the first 4-5mins. When he has interactions like this, I don't mind him. I still don't agree with him, but he is clear in his messaging.

-Doesn't think the center position generates enough offense
-Still thinks Cates can be an offensive center
-Stated they are drafting centers because there is a weakness at the NHL level
-Says he cannot go thru the same process with Frost as the last two years, not fair to him.

Hmmm Morgan Frost 41 and 46 pts the prior 2 seasons Noah Cates 38 and 18. Frost this year 6 pts in 16 games Cates 2 in 15. Tell me John who do you think has more offense? The Frost hate is beyond unreal. And yea I'm only talking about offense because the dumbass coach insists on getting offense out of a stone, while constantly shitting on his player who has shown he is good at offense.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hmmm Morgan Frost 41 and 46 pts the prior 2 seasons Noah Cates 38 and 18. Frost this year 6 pts in 16 games Cates 2 in 15. Tell me John who do you think has more offense? The Frost hate is beyond unreal. And yea I'm only talking about offense because the dumbass coach insists on getting offense out of a stone, while constantly shitting on his player who has shown he is good at offense.

His entire mindset is defensive. The only place they do allow risk kind of routinely is in the NZ. Otherwise, DZ is heavily defensive minded. Stopping scoring is more urgent than springing scoring.

OZ play is just another kind of defense at the other end. Minimal risk. Pucks don't travel far enough to get picked off, but generally also not far enough to make goalies move, unless its passes at the blue line without pressure or behind the net to switch sides. Like in his previous stops, offensive zone play is chiefly geared towards keeping the puck at the other end so the other team can't score, not so much to actually create goals.

All I can guess is that like the Flyers, Tortorella subscribes to the delusion that if you merely "play the right way" offensive production will happen as a little reward. Cates is an incredibly safe and "right-way" player, so therefore per their view of the sport, it is inevitable that he be rewarded.

 

[ponder719]

Oilers want to add to Bouchard, not subtract. Mabe they then move him after the season.

You are ok paying the contract Bouchard is looking for? I also do not think Sanheim has that type of value.

A smart organization looks to move Saheim. Therefor he will be here for many years.

Good luck to them if they think they can fit McDavid, Draisaitl, and Bouchard under the cap and still have a team after that. Sanheim is a better fit age-wise, more cost controlled by a mile, and I happen to think at the moment he's a better player than Bouchard, and if they're going all in as I think they should, that ought to matter to them.

Do I want to pay Bouchard that much? Not really, but I think it makes more sense here than it does there, and if we're going to over pay someone, better that it be a young player with promise, who could potentially grow to that level. Trade Sanheim and Risto, and you've paid for Bouchard and Andrae for the next little while, and by the time you need to pay Andrae more, you'll be able to melt off other shitty deals to make it make sense.

Whether Sanheim has that type of value or not, who knows, I'm as on the outside looking in as anyone else here, but I think he should, given the results he's been putting up on, lets face it, a team that isn't able to maximize his strengths (or, for that matter, anyone else's). That said, we should be looking to move players at his level for younger players who could be better than he is one day, but don't fit their own team's timeline as well as Sanheim would. Maybe it's not Edmonton, but there have to be better strategies than the one we seem to be pursuing.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Good luck to them if they think they can fit McDavid, Draisaitl, and Bouchard under the cap and still have a team after that. Sanheim is a better fit age-wise, more cost controlled by a mile, and I happen to think at the moment he's a better player than Bouchard, and if they're going all in as I think they should, that ought to matter to them.

Do I want to pay Bouchard that much? Not really, but I think it makes more sense here than it does there, and if we're going to over pay someone, better that it be a young player with promise, who could potentially grow to that level. Trade Sanheim and Risto, and you've paid for Bouchard and Andrae for the next little while, and by the time you need to pay Andrae more, you'll be able to melt off other shitty deals to make it make sense.

Whether Sanheim has that type of value or not, who knows, I'm as on the outside looking in as anyone else here, but I think he should, given the results he's been putting up on, lets face it, a team that isn't able to maximize his strengths (or, for that matter, anyone else's). That said, we should be looking to move players at his level for younger players who could be better than he is one day, but don't fit their own team's timeline as well as Sanheim would. Maybe it's not Edmonton, but there have to be better strategies than the one we seem to be pursuing.

I mean this is the Flyers we are talking about here. Moves they should be making are moves they rarely make

 

[deadhead]

Cates has outskated Frost this season, which was not on my Bingo card.
Cates was a below average skater who improved last summer, Frost top skater who has regressed.

Cates' issue seems to be getting comfortable in the O-zone, he's improved carrying the puck, possessing the puck, but struggles to finish plays. I don't think they think they're going to make him into a top 6 center, rather a more balanced version of himself. 3C is his realistic ceiling.

Frost has been bad, anyone who has watched the games has seen this. His skating is really off, when he's losing races to guys with average speed . . . he's played 245 games, at this point he has to start producing on offense. Hopefully, when he returns to the lineup he'll have his legs back.

They're going to draft more centers, they have wings who'd produce a lot more if they had top 6 quality centers. If they draft wings as BPA, they're going to have to package wings and picks to get a center.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Good luck to them if they think they can fit McDavid, Draisaitl, and Bouchard under the cap and still have a team after that. Sanheim is a better fit age-wise, more cost controlled by a mile, and I happen to think at the moment he's a better player than Bouchard, and if they're going all in as I think they should, that ought to matter to them.

Do I want to pay Bouchard that much? Not really, but I think it makes more sense here than it does there, and if we're going to over pay someone, better that it be a young player with promise, who could potentially grow to that level. Trade Sanheim and Risto, and you've paid for Bouchard and Andrae for the next little while, and by the time you need to pay Andrae more, you'll be able to melt off other shitty deals to make it make sense.

Whether Sanheim has that type of value or not, who knows, I'm as on the outside looking in as anyone else here, but I think he should, given the results he's been putting up on, lets face it, a team that isn't able to maximize his strengths (or, for that matter, anyone else's). That said, we should be looking to move players at his level for younger players who could be better than he is one day, but don't fit their own team's timeline as well as Sanheim would. Maybe it's not Edmonton, but there have to be better strategies than the one we seem to be pursuing.

They may not be able to fit him in after the season. I am saying for this season alone they would want to add to Bouchard. Does adding Sanheim and subtracting Bouchard get them over the hump? Plus say Bouchard gets 9.5. They can fit that as Sanehim is what 7.3? They Will just have to be smart at the margins elsewhere.

Agree 100% the Flyers should look to move Sanheim. As well as TK. However, they will not.

Flyers do not have any real plan. In a way would rather them trade picks/prospects build around those 2 as despite how foolish it would be at least it is a plan. 4 years from now TK will be on the downside. Sanheim I to think will age fine howver.

 

[ponder719]

They may not be able to fit him in after the season. I am saying for this season alone they would want to add to Bouchard. Does adding Sanheim and subtracting Bouchard get them over the hump? Plus say Bouchard gets 9.5. They can fit that as Sanehim is what 7.3? They Will just have to be smart at the margins elsewhere.

Agree 100% the Flyers should look to move Sanheim. As well as TK. However, they will not.

Flyers do not have any real plan. In a way would rather them trade picks/prospects build around those 2 as despite how foolish it would be at least it is a plan. 4 years from now TK will be on the downside. Sanheim I to think will age fine howver.

I'm sure they would, but for the Flyers, getting Bouchard would be the entire point; Edmonton doesn't have another collection of assets they'd be willing to move that would be worth moving Sanheim for without Bouchard coming back in the deal, IMO. From Edmonton's perspective, what do they do if someone goes where they won't or can't with a Bouchard deal? The FA market drops from Ekblad down to Chychrun, Gavrikov, and Provorov real GD fast, so it might behoove them to look for an alternative that sets them up with a big piece for the next several years; I know I'd rather have Sanheim on his deal than one of the impending FAs on what they'll get. Maybe they just hope for better out of Bouchard, though, that's for them to decide.

Beyond that, we're on the same page about what the Flyers should do, broad strokes at least, and what they won't do.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I'm sure they would, but for the Flyers, getting Bouchard would be the entire point; Edmonton doesn't have another collection of assets they'd be willing to move that would be worth moving Sanheim for without Bouchard coming back in the deal, IMO. From Edmonton's perspective, what do they do if someone goes where they won't or can't with a Bouchard deal? The FA market drops from Ekblad down to Chychrun, Gavrikov, and Provorov real GD fast, so it might behoove them to look for an alternative that sets them up with a big piece for the next several years; I know I'd rather have Sanheim on his deal than one of the impending FAs on what they'll get. Maybe they just hope for better out of Bouchard, though, that's for them to decide.

Beyond that, we're on the same page about what the Flyers should do, broad strokes at least, and what they won't do.

I get that and just don't see it happening from the Oiler perspective during the season.

Ivan would also be a good fit for the Oilers. Be real curious what he gets as an UFA.

Also as crazy as it sounds would Sanheim want to leave? Let that sink in.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Bob Clarke completely failed to build depth around those skill players because he insisted on having grinders, rather than maximizing skill. Bizarre for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.


Seriously, nobody remembers prior to 2024? We had a thing called the Lindros Era, wherein Clarke totally failed to build around the guy.

ffs !!! we currently have a guy under Clarke who specifaclly stated the Flyers wont be a team full of skill but instead will get by with honest hard to play against plugs...

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Cates has outskated Frost this season, which was not on my Bingo card.
Cates was a below average skater who improved last summer, Frost top skater who has regressed.

Cates' issue seems to be getting comfortable in the O-zone, he's improved carrying the puck, possessing the puck, but struggles to finish plays. I don't think they think they're going to make him into a top 6 center, rather a more balanced version of himself. 3C is his realistic ceiling.

Frost has been bad, anyone who has watched the games has seen this. His skating is really off, when he's losing races to guys with average speed . . . he's played 245 games, at this point he has to start producing on offense. Hopefully, when he returns to the lineup he'll have his legs back.

They're going to draft more centers, they have wings who'd produce a lot more if they had top 6 quality centers. If they draft wings as BPA, they're going to have to package wings and picks to get a center.

Frost's NHL edge skating data before December last season was surprisingly lacking in average speed and bursts, also.

I think his default mode is simply to coast. Or, as Scott Gordon said about Nolan Patrick, play in "3rd gear."

 

[GapToothedWonder]

and her mother has ppd so bad she can't even be near her

The wooooorst for everybody. Hormones are a hell of a drug.

Hopefully she starts feeling better sooner then later.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ah yes. Now Frost is lazy. The delusions required to defend a management and coaching group that always fails and always will.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

failing to build around him doesn't equate to him preferring grinders over skilled players. Which by his transactions show that is false. What is bizarre is you can't acknowledge your statement was wrong.

Who are all these grinders he acquired compared to the skill players he availed. There is a huge gap in favor of skill.


it is factual he acquired more skill players than grinders. To say otherwise is boggling to me. It is all pout there to validate. Done with this topic.

Sums it up.

Love their subsequent efforts to move the goalposts.

The claim was Clarke "lusted" over grinders over skill.

A GM who acquired

LeClair, Desjardins, Svoboda, Falloon, Hawerchuk, Coffey, Daigle, Gratton, Langkow, Comrie, Primeau, Recchi (2nd stint), Kim Johnsson, Kapanen, took a shot at Dopita, Zhamnov, Malakhov, Oates, Nedved, Roenick, Amonte, Forsberg, drafted Gagne, Pitkanen, Giroux, Williams, Carter, Richards.... I'm leaving players out, but this is not a GM that "lusted" over grinders over skill.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sums it up.

Love their subsequent efforts to move the goalposts.

The claim was Clarke "lusted" over grinders over skill.

A GM who acquired

LeClair, Desjardins, Svoboda, Falloon, Hawerchuk, Coffey, Daigle, Gratton, Langkow, Comrie, Primeau, Recchi (2nd stint), Kim Johnsson, Kapanen, took a shot at Dopita, Zhamnov, Malakhov, Oates, Nedved, Roenick, Amonte, Forsberg, drafted Gagne, Pitkanen, Giroux, Williams, Carter, Richards.... I'm leaving players out, but this is not a GM that "lusted" over grinders over skill.

Now do their depth. And what they prioritized then, and now. Weird how you ignored those priorities. The level of dishonesty needed to defend the team and its age old priorities is really something else. Do you enjoy lying, or something?

Can't wait for five or ten years from now when you try to pretend the team didn't favor no-offense players like Cates over guys with actual talent. You will do that.

 

[ybnvs]

-Doesn't think the center position generates enough offense
-Still thinks Cates can be an offensive center
-Stated they are drafting centers because there is a weakness at the NHL level

Considering this is a head coach who claims he himself does not understand the offensive side of the game, especially in 2024, like... what the f*** are we even doing here?

 

[Adam Warlock]

No one asked Frost to become a Selke candidate.

Defensive fundamentals don't keep you from being aggressive in the O-zone, it's just a matter of taking care of details, understand the cycle in the O-zone, back check, positioning your body and stick, know your responsibilities, etc.

If that keeps you from being a good offensive player, then you're probably not a good offensive player in the first place.

All of those details should be taught gradually over the early years of their careers. But when you yell, bench, and scratch players for not doing little details earlier in tgeir career...they naturally become fixated on those details and it takes away their instincts. It hurts offensive production, which then leads to fans and media calling the player a bust, which hurts confidence.

Theyre just shitty teachers....thats my main issue.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I still have nightmares of Beezer over Cujo

Or Holmgren signing Leighton a day before free agency started