2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[Beef Invictus]

Sums it up.

Love their subsequent efforts to move the goalposts.

The claim was Clarke "lusted" over grinders over skill.

A GM who acquired

LeClair, Desjardins, Svoboda, Falloon, Hawerchuk, Coffey, Daigle, Gratton, Langkow, Comrie, Primeau, Recchi (2nd stint), Kim Johnsson, Kapanen, took a shot at Dopita, Zhamnov, Malakhov, Oates, Nedved, Roenick, Amonte, Forsberg, drafted Gagne, Pitkanen, Giroux, Williams, Carter, Richards.... I'm leaving players out, but this is not a GM that "lusted" over grinders over skill.

Now do their depth. And what they prioritized then, and now. Weird how you ignored those priorities. The level of dishonesty needed to defend the team and its age old priorities is really something else. Do you enjoy lying, or something?

Can't wait for five or ten years from now when you try to pretend the team didn't favor no-offense players like Cates over guys with actual talent. You will do that.

 

[ybnvs]

-Doesn't think the center position generates enough offense
-Still thinks Cates can be an offensive center
-Stated they are drafting centers because there is a weakness at the NHL level

Considering this is a head coach who claims he himself does not understand the offensive side of the game, especially in 2024, like... what the f*** are we even doing here?

 

[Adam Warlock]

No one asked Frost to become a Selke candidate.

Defensive fundamentals don't keep you from being aggressive in the O-zone, it's just a matter of taking care of details, understand the cycle in the O-zone, back check, positioning your body and stick, know your responsibilities, etc.

If that keeps you from being a good offensive player, then you're probably not a good offensive player in the first place.

All of those details should be taught gradually over the early years of their careers. But when you yell, bench, and scratch players for not doing little details earlier in tgeir career...they naturally become fixated on those details and it takes away their instincts. It hurts offensive production, which then leads to fans and media calling the player a bust, which hurts confidence.

Theyre just shitty teachers....thats my main issue.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I still have nightmares of Beezer over Cujo

Or Holmgren signing Leighton a day before free agency started

 

[freakydallas13]

Unless Cates starts to pick it up offensively (highly unlikely), this will be the 4th straight season that Cates' offence has declined. Facts is facts.

Yet we still have the coach and others out here fantasizing about playing him above the 4th line and dunking on Frost for poor offensive results, meanwhile Frost is scoring more than Cates over the last 2 years and also continuing to be good at defence. Both players are the same age, but Cates can still be developed while Frost is about to be a bust.

This club will never change. Heap praise on dusters and criticize your skill players, hold them to different standards. Prioritize developing 4th liners and at the same tear down potential middle six centers. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unless Cates starts to pick it up offensively (highly unlikely), this will be the 4th straight season that Cates' offence has declined. Facts is facts.

Yet we still have the coach and others out here fantasizing about playing him above the 4th line and dunking on Frost for poor offensive results, meanwhile Frost is scoring more than Cates over the last 2 years and also continuing to be good at defence. Both players are the same age, but Cates can still be developed while Frost is about to be a bust.

This club will never change. Heap praise on dusters and criticize your skill players, hold them to different standards. Prioritize developing 4th liners and at the same tear down potential middle six centers. Rinse and repeat.

It's also such a ridiculously transparent defense of the team to pretend they're right about Cates and Frost. The Pope has less faith.

 

[freakydallas13]

I'm leaving players out, but this is not a GM that "lusted" over grinders over skill.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this list of acquired players by Clarke is going to look very different if you include all the players you left out (which in this case is apparantly every player he traded for, signed, or was drafted when he was GM).

 

[Adam Warlock]

DB needs to get off his ass and start making some moves. Lots of teams desperate to make shake up moves and guys like Jiricek are rumored to be available.

Youve got valued vets like Risto, Laughton, and Hathaway...and a growing urgency to do make a decision on the Frost/Brink/Farabees of the team.

Just seems like itd be a good time to get aggressive and adress the needs at C and D.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this list of acquired players by Clarke is going to look very different if you include all the players you left out (which in this case is apparantly every player he ever played for or was drafted what he was GM).

Of course it'll look different. It's the old GB trick of ignoring all information that proves him wrong and then pretending to be correct, in a quest for contrarianism. The most famous instance being insisting (oh, sorry, daily insinuating) Hagg was better than Ghost while ignoring every relevant stat and focusing on TOI and team wins. Weird how their careers have gone, considering Hagg is supposedly better.

"Clarke was actually good at building depth because he favored skill" is a level of gaslighting that this site has never seen before.

 

[freakydallas13]

DB needs to get off his ass and start making some moves. Lots of teams desperate to make shake up moves and guys like Jiricek are rumored to be available.

Youve got valued vets like Risto, Laughton, and Hathaway...and a growing urgency to do make a decision on the Frost/Brink/Farabees of the team.

Just seems like itd be a good time to get aggressive and adress the needs at C and D.

Based on DB's track record, no vets will get traded unless he has no other choice. You're talking about a GM who rushed to EXTEND Garnet f***ing Hathway within 12 hours of being able to, despite the fact he still has a year on his current contract. During a rebuild.

 

[deadhead]

They may not be able to fit him in after the season. I am saying for this season alone they would want to add to Bouchard. Does adding Sanheim and subtracting Bouchard get them over the hump? Plus say Bouchard gets 9.5. They can fit that as Sanehim is what 7.3? They Will just have to be smart at the margins elsewhere.

Agree 100% the Flyers should look to move Sanheim. As well as TK. However, they will not.

Flyers do not have any real plan. In a way would rather them trade picks/prospects build around those 2 as despite how foolish it would be at least it is a plan. 4 years from now TK will be on the downside. Sanheim I to think will age fine howver.

You want to trade Sanheim, 28, with 7 years left on a bargain deal, for Bouchard, 25, who'd you'd have to give a much larger 8 year extension. Why?

Trading Sanheim and TK would mean this team wouldn't be competitive until 2030, so Bouchard would have this monster deal and basically skate in circles for the first 5 years of his new deal.

 

[freakydallas13]

They are not facts.

22/23 - 38 points
23/24 - 18 points
24/25 - 2 so far

I'm confused why you think what I said is not correct. Is it because I said 4 seasons? If so, please post his PPG pace the the last 4 seasons.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Guess you are confused as this is Cates 3rd year in the NHL. Or am I missing a season.

Don't care about PPG pace. Total points is what matters.

Well in that case, 2 points is straightforward bad.

You may not care about pace, but he's sitting at an 8-10 point pace now. And he also isn't getting rich usage with good players anymore.

 

[freakydallas13]

Guess you are confused as this is Cates 3rd year in the NHL. Or am I missing a season.

Don't care about PPG pace. Total points is what matters.

You might not care, but facts are facts regardless of if you care about them or not:

Points per 60 goes down every year, now in his 4th year. I guess technically I was mistaken in calling it 4 years of declining offence, but that seems like a pedantic distinction rather than actually addressing the substance of what I was saying.

Would you prefer the more accurate "Cates has been in the league 4 seasons at the end of this season, and every year he gets worse offensively (assuming he trend to start this year holds)?

 

[Beef Invictus]

This is nitpicking. His results are annually worse. The only reason they were ever higher was because he was handed an incredible amount of undeserved top 6 time. And yet this team is certain that there is a secret reservoir of scoring ability there. It's delusion.

As bad as the "Nodl can be a top six player" experiment was, this is worse just because of how ridiculously long they're hanging onto these fantasies.

 

[freakydallas13]

Facts are this is his 3rd year full time in the NHL. Using a small sample at the end of a meaningless season should not be included. Use apples to apples (full seasons).

Is this his 3rd year full time in the NHL? Just curious what do you expect from a 5th rd pick who looks like a 4th line NHL player?

Did you run a t-test to see if there was a significant diff going from 1.6 to 1.3 PPG?

Please go back to my post and quote where I said "full" season, seeing as you are so concerned with that statement being correct you came here to tell me it wasn't.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Sanheim, 28, with 7 years left on a bargain deal

I would like to make a simple request. Perhaps use this as an opportunity to examine how far your opinion can switch on players based on a month at a clip. And then try to mitigate those thoughts.

 

[freakydallas13]

I would like to make a simple request. Perhaps use this as an opportunity to examine how far your opinion can switch on players based on a month at a clip. And then try to mitigate those thoughts.

Narrator voice: "But he did not do that."

Apples to apples. Compare it that way. Using the 16 game season is manipulating the numbers.

No friend, you said what I posted wasn't a fact, not that the comparison isn't fair.

Consider the following: perhaps it was you who was wrong all along.

 

[TCTC]

This is nitpicking. His results are annually worse. The only reason they were ever higher was because he was handed an incredible amount of undeserved top 6 time. And yet this team is certain that there is a secret reservoir of scoring ability there. It's delusion.

As bad as the "Nodl can be a top six player" experiment was, this is worse just because of how ridiculously long they're hanging onto these fantasies.

Aren't his defensive numbers pretty good though? Reminds me a bit of Bellemare who also was great defensively, but never got the credit he deserved here because he didn't score a lot.

 

[deadhead]

I would like to make a simple request. Perhaps use this as an opportunity to examine how far your opinion can switch on players based on a month at a clip. And then try to mitigate those thoughts.

Sanheim earned his contract last year, whether this year's performance is sustainable remains to be seen. But based on last season, he's a credible #2.

With the cap going up, $6.25M for a 1st pair D-man is a bargain.
If he's truly a #1, a bigger bargain.

2 points is bad. Never indicated is wasn't. Many say he is 4th line player. What should he have points wise by the end of the year for a 4th lie player? 22-25?

Pace does not matter.

4th line centers score in the 10-20 point range, median for 3rd line forwards is 23 ES points.
Bottom six forwards rarely get to pad their stats on the PP, though he may pick up a few SH points.

 

[freakydallas13]

Nah.

Na what, na you won't consider the following, or na you weren't wrong? Because fine if the former, but if it's the latter then I hate to break it to you but you were actually wrong.

Sorry to be a stickler, but I know you care about the things you read being correct.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Aren't his defensive numbers pretty good though? Reminds me a bit of Bellemare who also was great defensively, but never got the credit he deserved here because he didn't score a lot.

He is indeed good at defense, but they're not using him just for that. Their evaluation of him is that he'll start scoring any second now. Knowing how short sighted their planning is, it is hard to believe that this conviction of theirs doesn't play into their decision making.

Bellemare got did dirty by Hakstol. He was used as a 3rd dman in the OZ and then was slammed for not scoring from just short of the blue line. That anybody was surprised that line couldn't score when their only shooter was parked a mile from the net and his wingers couldn't set him up anyway, was confusing. And he took blame for some reason, and not the coach who was blatantly using him poorly in pursuit of a poorly conceived scheme...a scheme which happened to be in line with the goals management pushes on every coach, and was wildly more conservative than anything shown in Seattle.

 

[freakydallas13]

He is indeed good at defense, but they're not using him just for that. Their evaluation of him is that he'll start scoring any second now. Knowing how short sighted their planning is, it is hard to believe that this conviction of their doesn't play into their decision making.

Bellemare got did dirty by Hakstol. He was used as a 3rd dman in the OZ and then was slammed for not scoring from just short of the blue line. That anybody was surprised that line couldn't score when their only shooter was parked a mile from the net and his wingers couldn't set him up anyway, was confusing. And he took blame for some reason, and not the coach who was blatantly using him poorly in pursuit of a poorly conceived scheme...a scheme which happened to be in line with the goals management pushes on every coach, and was wildly more conservative than anything shown in Seattle.

No one is complaining about Cates' defence (which is great, or at least it was going into this season), we are complaining because yet again it sounds like the coach wants to shoehorn Cates into an offensive role he isn't cut out for.

If they would just leave him be as the 4th liner he is, pretty sure 95% of the complaints against him would disappear.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No one is complaining about Cates' defence (which is great, or at least it was going into this season), we are complaining because yet again it sounds like the coach wants to shoehorn Cates into an offensive role he isn't cut out for.

If they would just leave him be as the 4th liner he is, pretty sure 95% of the complaints against him would disappear.

Connecting the dots, we know what Tortorella thinks.

1. I have Cates, and I am sure he is going to begin scoring for some reason
2. It is unfair for Frost to be here under me

Dude sure seems to be signaling that Cates just needs room to shine (which is sure to happen! He plays so Right-Wayly!), and he has an idea of how to make room.

Cates is a really nice piece to have as a shutdown winger on a good team. Paired with solid 4th liners who can push some offense, you could make a very good 4th line with him. I would love for that to happen here, but it won't. By the time this team is in Michkov's prime, what do we think he'd be? This is a piece we should probably be looking to sell high on. It'll never happen. He's gonna be Laughton's Heir.

 

[deadhead]

Frost played himself out of a job, Torts even said he's the most skilled center. He wants him to succeed, he needs his offense. There's something wrong with Frost physically, he's a better skater than he's shown. No one is blocking him but himself.

I think Torts wants to push Cates, the way he pushes a lot of young players.
Cates was a LW in college moved to Center in the NHL, then LW when he returned from injury last season.
So center is still a learning experience, and playing offense first center a bigger one, since he was on a defense first college team and used as a shutdown center his first season here.
It's not turning him into a top 6 C, it's seeing if he can play offense well enough to be a solid two way 3C.