2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[VladDrag]

I haven't been paying attention to this argument -- but Cates has graded out over the last two seasons as one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL.

So did Bergeron (his last two seasons, obviously not last year)

 

[deadhead]

I haven't been paying attention to this argument -- but Cates has graded out over the last two seasons as one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL.

So did Bergeron (his last two seasons, obviously not last year)

He also finished strong offensively his rookie season and the second half of last season when he was healthy.

He's still a middle six forward, basically a better version of Laughton.
But players like him are valuable to a playoff team, or why TB traded for Goodrow (traded 1st for Goodrow and a 3rd).

 

[freakydallas13]

You know, one day I'm going to look back at long winded diatribes about things like how Bergeron isn't elite but Cates is, and I'm going to miss the fact that I don't read stuff like that anymore.

 

[Magua]

Tippett on the half wall of the power play while Frost plays net-front. After how good the PP looked in preseason, it’s Rocky time. Inject it into my veins.

I'm exaggerating a bit, but I seem to recall a certain someone hyping up Cates defense as elite, though to be honest I don't remember if that was the exact word you used. To check that I'd have to go back through your.....voluminous....post history to check it, and ain't nobody got time for that.

It took me 5 seconds litrilly.

 

[deadhead]

Tippett on the half wall of the power play while Frost plays net-front. After how good the PP looked in preseason, it’s Rocky time. Inject it into my veins.

Don't think it's net front, more the role they had TK playing last year, in the "dirty trapezoid," to get better shots. Frost tends to drift to the perimeter, so this may be as much about development as the PP, to get Frost comfortable closer to the net and to shoot more.

Same way they probably want Tippett to be more selective about shooting and to pass more.

 

[freakydallas13]

The real issue is DH keeps waffling between calling an entire player elite overall ("Bergeron isn't Elite!") to calling on specific thing that player does elite ("Cates is elite defensively!").

He lives in the ambiguity of the two and retreats from the Bailey (overall elite) to the Motte (specifically elite at one aspect) when he gets called out. "I didn't say Bergeron wasn't elite defensively, I said he wasn't elite overall!" And "I didn't say Cates was elite, I said he was elite defensively!".

Rinse and repeat, then never admit you are wrong.

Just dragging the whole thread down in pedantic distinctions thinly veiled to make the Flyers' decisions less dumb.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

You know, one day I'm going to look back at long winded diatribes about things like how Bergeron isn't elite but Cates is, and I'm going to miss the fact that I don't read stuff like that anymore.

buckle in for in about 8 years when we look back on the fact the Buuim became a elite NHL player that we passed on 2x to take Jett who will amount to the usual Flyers nothing burger..

 

[scumpup]

buckle in for in about 8 years when we look back on the fact the Buuim became a elite NHL player that we passed on 2x to take Jett who will amount to the usual Flyers nothing burger..

I dont think jett will be a nothing burger but he 99% won't be a buium burger.

 

[deadhead]

The real issue is DH keeps waffling between calling an entire player elite overall ("Bergeron isn't Elite!") to calling on specific thing that player does elite ("Cates is elite defensively!").

He lives in the ambiguity of the two and retreats from the Bailey (overall elite) to the Motte (specifically elite at one aspect) when he gets called out. "I didn't say Bergeron wasn't elite defensively, I said he wasn't elite overall!" And "I didn't say Cates was elite, I said he was elite defensively!".

Rinse and repeat, then never admit you are wrong.

Just dragging the whole thread down in pedantic distinctions thinly veiled to make the Flyers' decisions less dumb.

Two different contexts.

One is the concept of "elite" in terms of drafting players, do you need generational talents that you can only get with a #1 pick or at best the top 3 or so, or very good players you can usually get in the top 15 picks and sometimes in the top 40.

The second is terms of a specific skill compared to peers. Cates may have been elite defensively, but that doesn't make him an elite player.

buckle in for in about 8 years when we look back on the fact the Buuim became a elite NHL player that we passed on 2x to take Jett who will amount to the usual Flyers nothing burger..

Maybe. I've found out that these kind of predictions don't have 100% success.

 

[BernieParent]

Don't think it's net front, more the role they had TK playing last year, in the "dirty trapezoid," to get better shots. Frost tends to drift to the perimeter, so this may be as much about development as the PP, to get Frost comfortable closer to the net and to shoot more.

Same way they probably want Tippett to be more selective about shooting and to pass more.

Tortorella to Frost: "Go to the crease and get dirty goals."
Tortorella to Tippett: "Shoot at Frost."

 

[freakydallas13]

Two different contexts.

One is the concept of "elite" in terms of drafting players, do you need generational talents that you can only get with a #1 pick or at best the top 3 or so, or very good players you can usually get in the top 15 picks and sometimes in the top 40.

The second is terms of a specific skill compared to peers. Cates may have been elite defensively, but that doesn't make him an elite player.

I know this, and you know this, but you don't exactly explain what you're doing up front when you rip takes that seem hot but in reality are something different. "Bergeron isn't elite overall" and "Cates is elite defensively" seems to be deliberate on your part to either rile everyone else up or be purposefully obtuse and misleading, even if what you're really saying is a watered down version of what it appears to be. You keep seemingly forgetting to add the qualifiers that make your statements less (though not fully removed from) bonkers.

You need to attach a manual on dissemination to your posts sometimes, friend.

 

[Magua]

Patrice Bergeron and Zdeno Chara were elite OVERALL.

 

[freakydallas13]

Patrice Bergeron and Zdeno Chara were elite OVERALL.

Agreed, but that is a whole seperate argument to what I've been soapboxing about the last few posts.

 

[ponder719]

You know, one day I'm going to look back at long winded diatribes about things like how Bergeron isn't elite but Cates is, and I'm going to miss the fact that I don't read stuff like that anymore.

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Somebody wake me up when Cates finishes top 5 in Hart voting. Or failing that, at least consistently manages to outscore the opposition without needing to be hard-carried by top line talent while holding them back.

His defense is very lovely and all, but when you score so little that you still commonly lose out overall, that's an issue; you're just hanging on, and that's why he's only a 4th liner (3rd if they have enough talent to surround him with scorers) on any good team. That's what sets guys like Couturier and Barkov and Bergeron far apart from Cates: widely outscoring the opposition in addition to their defense. And why they aren't comparable.

Edit: Not to say Cates is a slouch or not worth having. He's a great asset on a deep team. But let's not overinflate him.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Patrice Bergeron and Zdeno Chara were elite OVERALL.

But where is your PROOF.

Please put it in a densely worded paragraph please.

 

[freakydallas13]

Somebody wake me up when Cates finishes top 5 in Hart voting. Or failing that, at least consistently manages to outscore the opposition without needing to be hard-carried by top line talent while holding them back.

His defense is very lovely and all, but when you score so little that you still commonly lose out overall, that's an issue; you're just hanging on, and that's why he's only a 4th liner (3rd if they have enough talent to surround him with scorers) on any good team. That's what sets guys like Couturier and Barkov and Bergeron far apart from Cates: widely outscoring the opposition in addition to their defense. And why they aren't comparable.

Cates is very much a "low event" style of player carried to the extreme, in my eyes. He has great defence, but at the same time has horrid offence, which is the ideal 4th liner when you don't have enough talent to fill out 12 forward spots.

Is he going to cost you a goal? Probably not. Is he going to contribute offensively? Also probably not. It's like throwing a human event eraser out there, which is valuable in that you can cycle him out there and get rest for the better players who will actually help you win, but that does mean he's the hockey equivalent of just "treading water" on the ice. Treading ice, as it were. Not hurting you actively, but also not really helping you outside of eliminating necessary time you can't play your top players.

He doesn't really warrant me posting long winded paragraphs about him. He is what he is, a perfectly cromulent 4th liner you can play on the 3rd line in a pinch.

 

[deadhead]

I know this, and you know this, but you don't exactly explain what you're doing up front when you rip takes that seem hot but in reality are something different. "Bergeron isn't elite overall" and "Cates is elite defensively" seems to be deliberate on your part to either rile everyone else up or be purposefully obtuse and misleading, even if what you're really saying is a watered down version of what it appears to be. You keep seemingly forgetting to add the qualifiers that make your statements less (though not fully removed from) bonkers.

You need to attach a manual on dissemination to your posts sometimes, friend.

Maybe you need to drop the knee jerk responses and smart ass comments (at least the ones that are just obnoxious, clever repartee is always welcome).

If you understood what I was saying, it wasn't as obtuse as you imply.

The negativity here is so automatic it's tiresome, as frustrating as this team has been, it's not Buffalo or CBJ since Torts left (after him it became a toxic dump).

 

[Starat327]

Patrice Bergeron and Zdeno Chara were elite OVERALL.

I assure you good sir, yours isn't rhe hot take here. Just the usual suspects doing their trolling thing.

 

[Magua]

I assure you good sir, yours isn't rhe hot take here. Just the usual suspects doing their trolling thing.

I was being IRONIC, Statatarat.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Cates is very much a "low event" style of player carried to the extreme in my eyes. He has great defence, but at the same time has horrid offence, which is the ideal 4th liner when you don't have enough talent to fill out 12 forward spots.

Is he going to cost you a goal? Probably not. Is he going to contribute offensively? Also probably not. It's like throwing a human event eraser out there, which is valuable in that you can cycle him out there and get rest for the better players who will actually help you win, but that does mean he's the hockey equivalent of just "trading water" on the ice. Treading ice, as it were. Not hurting you actively, but also not really helping you outside of eliminating necessary time you can't play your top players.

He doesn't really warrant me posting long winded paragraphs about him. He is what he is, a perfectly cromulent 4th liner you can play on the 3rd line in a pinch.

Far more eloquent than I could do. Given proper roster construction, Cates absolutely is a valuable asset on the forth line and being able to play up. For the flyers, who lack any substantive center depth, he’s playing out of his depth.

I’d argue if you have a top heavy roster with a good top six but lacking depth, he’s exactly the center for you on your forth line. Minimal scoring variance, you expect he’s going to play a zero sum game over the course of a season. But you NEED your top six to be puck dominant, something the flyers typically are not.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Cates is very much a "low event" style of player carried to the extreme in my eyes. He has great defence, but at the same time has horrid offence, which is the ideal 4th liner when you don't have enough talent to fill out 12 forward spots.

Is he going to cost you a goal? Probably not. Is he going to contribute offensively? Also probably not. It's like throwing a human event eraser out there, which is valuable in that you can cycle him out there and get rest for the better players who will actually help you win, but that does mean he's the hockey equivalent of just "treading water" on the ice. Treading ice, as it were. Not hurting you actively, but also not really helping you outside of eliminating necessary time you can't play your top players.

He doesn't really warrant me posting long winded paragraphs about him. He is what he is, a perfectly cromulent 4th liner you can play on the 3rd line in a pinch.

Yep. There is no such thing as actually treading water if you're a negative offensively. You're still sinking inevitably, just slower. Someone else with him will need to be good enough to push scoring up.

 

[freakydallas13]

Maybe you need to drop the knee jerk responses and smart ass comments (at least the ones that are just obnoxious, clever repartee is always welcome).

If you understood what I was saying, it wasn't as obtuse as you imply.

The negativity here is so automatic it's tiresome, as frustrating as this team has been, it's not Buffalo or CBJ since Torts left (after him it became a toxic dump).

I get confused by what you are really trying to say in your posts is all I'm saying, genuinely. I find myself constantly having to take a step back and say to myself "what is he actually trying to say?".

Now, maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but all I mean is I'd appreciate if you more clearly explained your hot takes before you posted them. It would help people (or maybe just me) from jumping down your throat because the thing you posted only sounds bonkers on the surface but is really actually not saying much we disagree on at the bottom of it.

Just my two cents, no ill will meant.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Maybe you need to drop the knee jerk responses and smart ass comments (at least the ones that are just obnoxious, clever repartee is always welcome).

If you understood what I was saying, it wasn't as obtuse as you imply.

The negativity here is so automatic it's tiresome, as frustrating as this team has been, it's not Buffalo or CBJ since Torts left (after him it became a toxic dump).

Buffalo has more wins in the last several years than the Flyers

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

... Tippett to be more selective about shooting and to pass more.