2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[sauce88]

It's not hard to see one of the main aspects the Flyers fail at when it comes to player development. They get these prospects in their system and immediately they try to develop the weaker parts of their game (which is fine), but don't do anything to promote what the player is already good at. They label players based on archaic principles and use outdated roles. They should be trying to develop players to be the best version of themselves, not the best version of some 3C/4C, third pairing D specialist archetype that they are hung up on. The pigeon-holing has handicapped their development processes and definitely their draft processes.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Just last year they wanted a former roving college defenseman to play like Erik Cernak.

 

[deadhead]

Just last year they wanted a former roving college defenseman to play like Erik Cernak.

You mean a rover who lacked defensive fundamentals and the skill set to play that role in the NHL.
I'd point out that Makar is a sound defender, as well as an elite offensive weapon - the two are not contradictory. Same with Fox.
Attard lacks the speed to outskate his mistakes, so he has to be more careful on offense, get caught up ice = odd man rush the other way.

Playing good defense doesn't take away from offense (other than cherry picking).
It does require hard work to master fundamentals, stamina to play both ways instead of half assing your back check, and a high enough IQ to know what you're supposed to be doing.

Frost isn't struggling on offense b/c he plays better defense, he struggles because he's too passive for long stretches and doesn't use his speed to drive play.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Playing good defense doesn't take away from offense (other than cherry picking).
It does require hard work to master fundamentals, stamina to play both ways instead of half assing your back check, and a high enough IQ to know what you're supposed to be doing.

Strongest possible disagreement with this. Time and time again, we see players take offensive leaps at the cost of the other end. This is Konecny’s career. We also see it in reverse where defensive improvement comes at the cost of almost all offensive value. That’s Risto.

Everything comes at a cost. There’s only so much energy to go around and you have to make positional and/or predictive choices.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Strongest possible disagreement with this. Time and time again, we see players take offensive leaps at the cost of the other end. This is Konecny’s career. We also see it in reverse where defensive improvement comes at the cost of almost all offensive value. That’s Risto.

Everything comes at a cost. There’s only so much energy to go around and you have to make positional and/or predictive choices.

remember that time they converted Sam Morin from D-man to O-man in actual NHL games..

LOL Flyers...

 

[ajgoal]

Strongest possible disagreement with this. Time and time again, we see players take offensive leaps at the cost of the other end. This is Konecny’s career. We also see it in reverse where defensive improvement comes at the cost of almost all offensive value. That’s Risto.

Everything comes at a cost. There’s only so much energy to go around and you have to make positional and/or predictive choices.

Wasn't Hagg considered a pretty decent offensive defenseman?

 

[VladDrag]

The problem with that theory is these guys don't go elsewhere and shine, like say Verhaeghe who got jacked around by Toronto and TB.

Giroux was 1C, Couts and B Schenn were basically competing for 2C, Couts beat him out in 2015-16.
Couts took off when G was moved to LW and paired with him.

Laughton was sent to AHL b/c he couldn't play defense, came back improved but has always been an awkward fit at center, better LW but Flyers have had a hole at center for over a decade (moving G to LW improved 1st line but left a gap, and Patrick flaming out left a chasm).

NAK has always been a 4RW at every stop in his career.
Kase wasn't even a good AHL player. His 2nd AHL season 51g 7-12 19 at ES, and he couldn't stay healthy. Injuries also derailed Laczynski (top college scorer) and Allison.

Hagg should have been a top defensive defenseman, but seemed to lack the instincts, never was good offensively, even at the AHL level.

Sanheim didn't knock anyone's socks off offensively in his first AHL season, 76g 9-15 24 at ES. Next season, 2017-18, at 21, was too good for AHL but not ready for prime time. Hagg replaced him in the playoffs b/c of bad play. The following season became a fixture in the lineup.

Frost's first AHL season in 2019-20, 41g 11-8 19 at ES. Played 20 games in the NHL, 1-5 6 at ES. [Twarynski was a LW, he didn't keep Frost off the roster.] Missed a season. Next season much better at LHV, promoted to NHL, but 55g 4-10 14 at ES. After a good 2022-23, regressed a bit last year despite PT with TK, Tippett and Farabee. Frost's problem is Frost, hasn't learned to play up to his raw skill level.

Brink struggled at the NHL level last season, needs to get a little quicker, little stronger and adjust to smaller windows. Showed he was too good for AHL, but not quite NHL ready.
xGFrel -6.07, HDCFrel - 7.88. 1.59 pp/60.

Note that a lot of prospects needed a year or two to adjust to NHL play.
The progression tends to be go to the AHL, show you're too good for that league, get promoted, struggle as a rookie, step up your game your 2nd year in the league.

Players who are good defensively play earlier, not because of some prejudice, but b/c you can fit them in the bottom six and let them grow into bigger roles (Couts at 18). Cates, Foerster.

Offense first players who haven't mastered defensive fundamentals are bad fits in the bottom six and are rarely good enough offensively to make the top six as rookies, so they're more likely to be marinated. Frost, Brink.

This isn't a "Flyers thing," look around the league and you see the same pattern, especially teams that are good at developing prospects. Pens marinated prospects on a regular basis, which is why their AHL franchise is consistently competitive.

I disagree with basically everything here, but thank you for the response.

 

[VladDrag]

Wasn't Hagg considered a pretty decent offensive defenseman?

At the draft yes. He had a decent scoring profile during u20's. But I always said it was due to his physical maturity. He was basically a full grown man at ~20.

 

[deadhead]

Strongest possible disagreement with this. Time and time again, we see players take offensive leaps at the cost of the other end. This is Konecny’s career. We also see it in reverse where defensive improvement comes at the cost of almost all offensive value. That’s Risto.

Everything comes at a cost. There’s only so much energy to go around and you have to make positional and/or predictive choices.

Disagree. There are tradeoffs, but it's not strictly offense v defense.
At one extreme there is cherry picking, which boosts an individual player's stats at the cost of team defense (5 on 4).
At the other extreme is conservative play which makes a player look better on defense at the cost of stifling offense.

For most players, the balance isn't that extreme. Couts played Selke defense and still produced on offense. Giroux was a top offensive player who was never a liability on defense.

With TK, I think it's more a realization by Torts that lacking offensive talent, he gave the green light to TK and Tippett to be more aggressive on offense.

With Risto, I think it was a matter of Shaw rebuilding his fundamentals, walk before you run, teach him positioning, etc., before letting him be more aggressive on offense.

Yes, there's a tradeoff in the sense that an offensive player can conserve energy by gliding on defense - but there are a number of reasons to discourage this
1) moneyball, top offensive players who are bad on defense get paid like two way players with similar offensive output - so get rid of these guys b/c they're an inefficient use of resources
2) team morale - how would you feel about a teammate that pads his stats while leaving you out to dry?
3) winning - this is the type of player you have to shelter and not use in certain situations of close games.

Now demanding that players show effort at both ends of the ice doesn't mean you expect your best offensive players to be Selke candidates, just don't be a liability on defense.

And it may take more effort, but stopping goals is as important as scoring goals unless you're behind in the second half of games.

It may require more depth and rolling four lines to keep everyone fresh, but unless you're talking an elite offensive player, playing an good offensive player who's a liability on defense 1-2 minutes less in favor of an average offensive player who is a good defender is not going to impact your chances of winning.

 

[renberg]

Flyers went under the covers with Kolosov when they paid him last season to play in Russia. At that point it was obvious that the Flyers were desperate for Kolosov and could be played. With the Flyers in the position that they were for goaltending-Hart going to jail; Fedotov in the Russian service, Kolosov had the upper hand. I can't blame Kolosov's camp for taking advantage of the situation. They did and so far have been able to get away with it.
Now the only path left for the Flyers with Kolosov is to go hard ball with him. Toll his contract until he becomes compliant. If Kolosov want to ever play in the NHL, he's going to have to come over to NA and work his way through the AHL to the show. After the stunts that Kolosov has pulled, it would be risky for any NHL franchise to get involved with him.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

They are going to blow more relationships this year too

They don’t care. Remember that stupid sign the Flyers have around the locker room? It’s the Flyers way or no way.

 

[Curufinwe]

Flyers went under the covers with Kolosov when they paid him last season to play in Russia.

Having a Euro goalie play a season in their home country on loan is not unusual. Ulmark is another example.

Linus Ullmark | 4yrs x 5.000M (OTT)

Linus Ullmark signed a 4 year, $20,000,000 contract with the Boston Bruins on Jul. 28, 2021. The contract has a cap hit of $5,000,000.

capwages.com

 

[GKJ]

Flyers went under the covers with Kolosov when they paid him last season to play in Russia. At that point it was obvious that the Flyers were desperate for Kolosov and could be played. With the Flyers in the position that they were for goaltending-Hart going to jail; Fedotov in the Russian service, Kolosov had the upper hand. I can't blame Kolosov's camp for taking advantage of the situation. They did and so far have been able to get away with it.
Now the only path left for the Flyers with Kolosov is to go hard ball with him. Toll his contract until he becomes compliant. If Kolosov want to ever play in the NHL, he's going to have to come over to NA and work his way through the AHL to the show. After the stunts that Kolosov has pulled, it would be risky for any NHL franchise to get involved with him.

Kolosov in a trade likely would be a low-risk play for the other team. The Flyers would be unlikely to get a pick higher than what they used to draft him, that being a 3rd round pick, which sounds fair in a league that devalues goalies. The Flyers likely value Kolosov higher than that since they know him and do think highly of him. But he isn’t currently someone who is viewed as a needle-moving prospect like someone such as Askarov.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Felix Sandstrom also played his D+4 on loan overseas before coming over. It's fairly common for Euro goalies since after a certain age they are only eligible for a two year ELC so teams just "burn" the first year of a 3 year ELC via loan. Give them the signing bonus and get them in your system in some form.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

 

[captainpaxil]

The issue with slow cooking prospects is you wind up paying for ufa years at the NHL level. Cap constraints mean you need to maximize guys in rfa and elcs. Something like barkey and luchenko making the team despite size and strength issues would be trying to maximize this contractual advantage

 

[dragonoffrost]

I think they're gonna have a Tippet - Frost - Michkov line, should be fun.

That line will be getting the shit minutes... Maybe even the least if they use it cause...Torts.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The issue with slow cooking prospects is you wind up paying for ufa years at the NHL level. Cap constraints mean you need to maximize guys in rfa and elcs. Something like barkey and luchenko making the team despite size and strength issues would be trying to maximize this contractual advantage

There is also the issue of the average NHL career lasting 2 years or less. Loads of these prospects can have their period of best hockey come and go and be squandered on a badly coached minors team while the NHL team gets zero utility out of them. Meanwhile we burn cap on declining vets, and nobody who doesn't force the team's hand gets a chance to prove anything for real.

There is no way anyone can think the team maximized the utility they got out of Allison, for instance.

 

[deadhead]

Allison couldn't stay healthy, and it took a toll on his game. Same with Laczynski.

Foerster, who had a similar skill set to Allison (better shot, less speed) spent one year in LHV then became a NHL starter playing elite defense.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

There is also the issue of the average NHL career lasting 2 years or less. Loads of these prospects can have their period of best hockey come and go and be squandered on a badly coached minors team while the NHL team gets zero utility out of them. Meanwhile we burn cap on declining vets, and nobody who doesn't force the team's hand gets a chance to prove anything for real.

There is no way anyone can think the team maximized the utility they got out of Allison, for instance.

this team f***ing loves a retirement ready level Vet...

 

[Striiker]

Wasn't Hagg considered a pretty decent offensive defenseman?

Who has the Meltzer tweet where he says Hagg has higher offensive upside than Ghost?

I can’t find the damn thing.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Allison couldn't stay healthy, and it took a toll on his game. Same with Laczynski.

Foerster, who had a similar skill set to Allison (better shot, less speed) spent one year in LHV then became a NHL starter playing elite defense.

Seems to me they should have taken every opportunity to see them play when they could, then.

Too bad the revolving door has never been real.

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

That line will be getting the shit minutes... Maybe even the least if they use it cause...Torts.

We shall see, just trying to keep a positive mindset going into the season, super excited to see Michkov.

 

[deadhead]

In any sport, marginal players get one or two opportunities to win a job.

We've seen this with the Phillies, Dahl got a shot to start, fell on his face, Wilson and Clemons have done well enough to have a future, same with Ruiz.

AHL players get recalled due to injuries, they have to take advantage of that opportunity to win a job. Zamula did, Allison didn't b/c every time he played well, he got dinged or injured.
Seeler got another chance to start and ran with it.

Some players aren't talented enough, some can't handle the pressure, some can't stay healthy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

In any sport, marginal players get one or two opportunities to win a job.

We've seen this with the Phillies, Dahl got a shot to start, fell on his face, Wilson and Clemons have done well enough to have a future, same with Ruiz.

AHL players get recalled due to injuries, they have to take advantage of that opportunity to win a job. Zamula did, Allison didn't b/c every time he played well, he got dinged or injured.
Seeler got another chance to start and ran with it.

Some players aren't talented enough, some can't handle the pressure, some can't stay healthy.

They do take advantage and then they get sent back down ASAP. You then defend that, despite it being contrary to what you preach.

 

[dragonoffrost]

We shall see, just trying to keep a positive mindset going into the season, super excited to see Michkov.

If Torts allows a line that isn't anything but offensive skill with very questionable defense young guys. They won't see Line 1 or Line 2 minutes. So it's either going to get the 3rd or 4th minutes and you know Torts will fetish the grinder line... so odds are they get the least at even strength.